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On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery."
So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all?
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On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology.
Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb.
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On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human...
No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
Sex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.
A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories".
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On July 31 2013 05:25 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. That's like a super awesome hypothetical person that both doesn't exist anywhere in the world and isn't relevant to any thought experiment in this thread. Thanks for weighing in though.
Except you did... "The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself." You essentially said that what matters is what a person identifies oneself as.
There's a difference between having male genitals, identifying oneself as a woman and striving to alter your body to be in line with that (and thus getting a surgery), and having male genitals, identifying oneself as a woman and still wanting to keep your penis because you consider it part of you/your identity. Whether you get a surgery (or want/plan to have one) makes a colossal difference.
On July 31 2013 05:27 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. also i think you ment to be wrong using the words male and female.... at least that way you would be wrong and make sense instead of that mash up of unrelated words
Not sure what you're trying to say, tbh.
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On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks.
Sex mostly refer to your genitals. reproductive organs and chromosome.
Gender can refer to gender role, gender expression or gender identity.
The important one here is gender identity. Gender identity is determined by your brain. So a trans woman has a feminized brain and a trans man has a masculinized brain.
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On July 31 2013 05:39 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb.
That's just...not true. Some words have multiple meanings and context can help sort out which meaning is relevant. But if words are really just whatever we want them to mean then we'd all just go around grunting hoping "context" would provide meaning for the other person.
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On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology.
I don't agree.
Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human."
Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female"
Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion).
I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity."
Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side!
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On July 31 2013 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:25 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. That's like a super awesome hypothetical person that both doesn't exist anywhere in the world and isn't relevant to any thought experiment in this thread. Thanks for weighing in though. Except you did... "The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself." You essentially said that what matters is what a person identifies oneself as. There's a difference between having male genitals, identifying oneself as a woman and striving to alter your body to be in line with that (and thus getting a surgery), and having male genitals, identifying oneself as a woman and still wanting to keep your penis because you consider it part of you/your identity. Whether you get a surgery (or want/plan to have one) makes a colossal difference. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:27 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. also i think you ment to be wrong using the words male and female.... at least that way you would be wrong and make sense instead of that mash up of unrelated words Not sure what you're trying to say, tbh.
Yes, but your dumbass then decided to invent this woman who was born with a penis but still doesn't want it removed which doesn't happen. People with gender dysphoria by definition aren't happy with their genitals. There are pragmatic reasons why they might not have the surgery (finances, access to safe healthcare etc) but "a person who identifies as a woman but doesn't want her penis removed" isn't a relevant example in this discussion.
The surgery doesn't change her because pre-op and post-op she is still a woman. That's what I said. I have no idea why you think your point is relevant.
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On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying.
I see a dissonance here. On one hand we have people saying how nowadays it's practically impossible to tell someone had a sex change surgery, and on the other hand you're saying how difficult it is.
Anyway, I explained what I meant in a post above.
@Klondikebar
Because there clearly aren't people like that, e.g. in countries like Thailand... They get artificial breasts, but keep their penises.
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On July 31 2013 05:37 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:33 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"? Seeing as transgender terminology isnt the most relevant and important thing to most peoples live im not sure where the problem is in asking a trans woman if she actually is a woman. Or would you expect everyone to ask "were you born with the body and genetilia of a male, but identify as a woman?". Usually this is the kind of stuff that you mention during the first few dates, way before sex. And this is when you explain everything to the person and ask them if they have question. Asking a trans woman if she's a woman is a bad question, she would just answer yes, that wouldn't give you much information.
My point is that if asked a trans woman if she were a woman and she didnt tell me that she once had the body of a male then shes being pointlessly stubborn. The intent of the question is obvious and the answer should be too. This is the point ive been trying to make. terminology is pointless in the presence of ignorance.
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On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis?
She.
And yes.
If you loss your penis in an accident would you still consider yourself a man ?
What if you find out you had XX chromosomes, would you still consider yourself a man ?
You would still consider yourself a man, because of your gender identity. Same thing for a trans person.
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On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all?
Yes that is correct.
If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman.
This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest.
On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
Sex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.
A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories".
Get with the times.
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On July 31 2013 05:33 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:25 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:01 renoB wrote:On July 31 2013 04:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 04:09 theodorus12 wrote:
I think everyone should have equal* rights. But it is also my right to find gays etc disgusting.
And I really don't get the anger about that Family Guy episode, of course a straight male would be disgusted, if he finds out the "girl" he just had sex with is actually a man....
*with the exceptions of child adoption Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. How do you define man and woman, then? Is it simply whatever you choose to be? I am a man. As in if you asked 1,000 people on the street they would say with 100% certainty that I am "a man." Does that actually mean anything. If one day I decide that I feel more like a woman... am I now a woman? Do I need to go through surgery to be a woman? I think the lack of definite answers to these questions makes it very hard to talk about this subject. Literally, it is hard to choose the right words because there's always a possibility you could offend someone. So at some point, there has to be a line drawn somewhere where we agree that some people are men and some people are women. Or we just say to hell with it, and get rid of labeling sexes altogether. What is it? Are people afraid of accidentally sleeping with someone of the same sex? Afraid you'll be peeped in the bathroom? I just don't see what the big deal is and why people can't just withhold their judgement. implying that being afraid of sleeping the same sex is perfectly fine for everyone? why dont you withhold YOUR judgment and let everyone decide for themselves what they think is a big deal. I didn't say that or imply it. I asked why it was necessary to define man, woman, male, female, etc. so specifically, is it so you don't accidentally sleep with someone of the same sex? Are you so afraid of this statistically negligible event happening that you feel the need to insult people who are different than you by saying "but seriously, you're not actually a woman"? Seeing as transgender terminology isnt the most relevant and important thing to most peoples live im not sure where the problem is in asking a trans woman if she actually is a woman. Or would you expect everyone to ask "were you born with the body and genetilia of a male, but identify as a woman?". Edit: im actually unsure of what youre saying. are you for labeling specifically or against it? you question its importance but imply using the wrong word is insulting. sorry if im overseeing something
I'm saying that transgender people in this thread and elsewhere aren't out to try and have sex with you, or trick you into sleeping with the same sex as yourself, so why is it necessary to make some distinction for every person whether or not they identify as man or a woman or are biologically male or female? Why not just be cool with what people are, since it doesn't affect you?
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On July 31 2013 05:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. I see a dissonance here. On one hand we have people saying how nowadays it's practically impossible to tell someone had a sex change surgery, and on the other hand you're saying how difficult it is. Anyway, I explained what I meant in a post above.
The surgery is crazy expensive and it's only available in developed countries. If you are not of means, or you are in an underdeveloped country you might not want the surgery. This means that for the majority of the world getting the surgery is rather difficult. However, if you are able to get it, it is a damn near flawless transition.
You've got to be intentionally misunderstanding so I'm gonna quit responding to you. You aren't smart. Stick to just reading and trying to understand.
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On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X.
So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op.
These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories".
"tends now", "concept", "often", It's obvious that some people are trying to push the change of this definition, but that is not how 99% of the population sees it.
And since you like Wikipedia so much.
"A woman /ˈwʊmən/, pl: women /ˈwɪmɨn/ is a female human."
"A man is an adult human male"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man
It's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that.
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On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times.
that define "men and women."
Circular reference.
Cannot compute.
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On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:24 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Except the person was actually a girl, not a man. A trans woman is a woman. Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X. So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op. These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all? Yes that is correct. If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman. This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times.
If the women are identical then you can't claim preference. Preference isn't academic. If you can't tell a difference between the two unless one tells you she's trans...then your preferences aren't a play, your ill conceived notions of what trans means are at play.
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On July 31 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X.
So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op.
These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. I see a dissonance here. On one hand we have people saying how nowadays it's practically impossible to tell someone had a sex change surgery, and on the other hand you're saying how difficult it is. Anyway, I explained what I meant in a post above. The surgery is crazy expensive and it's only available in developed countries. If you are not of means, or you are in an underdeveloped country you might not want the surgery. This means that for the majority of the world getting the surgery is rather difficult. However, if you are able to get it, it is a damn near flawless transition. You've got to be intentionally misunderstanding so I'm gonna quit responding to you. You aren't smart. Stick to just reading and trying to understand.
I've always been interested in how accurate they can be with the transition. Have any links, or dare I ask, pics?
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On July 31 2013 05:50 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". "tends now", "concept", "often", It's obvious that some people are trying to push the change of this definition, but that is not how 99% of the population sees it. And since you like Wikipedia so much. "A woman /ˈwʊmən/, pl: women /ˈwɪmɨn/ is a female human." "A man is an adult human male" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManIt's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that.
You won't mind if we call your rude and a jerk if you take that stance? Beause a large number of people would agree that is what you are and I don't see why we shouldn't be able to call you what you are.
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On July 31 2013 05:50 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". "tends now", "concept", "often", It's obvious that some people are trying to push the change of this definition, but that is not how 99% of the population sees it. And since you like Wikipedia so much. "A woman /ˈwʊmən/, pl: women /ˈwɪmɨn/ is a female human." "A man is an adult human male" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManIt's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that.
On July 31 2013 05:47 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X.
So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op.
These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? She. And yes. If you loss your penis in an accident would you still consider yourself a man ? What if you find out you had XX chromosomes, would you still consider yourself a man ? You would still consider yourself a man, because of your gender identity. Same thing for a trans person.
Same here, you might want that but I will not do it, you have a penis, are born male but feel female, this doesn't make you a women.
Losing something that is part of being male wouldn't make me less male....
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