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On July 31 2013 05:39 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb.
erm... no thats not how language works.
and... yes being passionately wrong about something without looking it up is dumb
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On July 31 2013 05:52 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. I see a dissonance here. On one hand we have people saying how nowadays it's practically impossible to tell someone had a sex change surgery, and on the other hand you're saying how difficult it is. Anyway, I explained what I meant in a post above. The surgery is crazy expensive and it's only available in developed countries. If you are not of means, or you are in an underdeveloped country you might not want the surgery. This means that for the majority of the world getting the surgery is rather difficult. However, if you are able to get it, it is a damn near flawless transition. You've got to be intentionally misunderstanding so I'm gonna quit responding to you. You aren't smart. Stick to just reading and trying to understand. I've always been interested in how accurate they can be with the transition. Have any links, or dare I ask, pics?
I obviously can't post pictures of vaginas to TL but there's this article about a trans couple:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2230658/The-sex-change-sweethearts-How-pageant-princess-colonels-son-fell-love-BOTH-transgender-treatment.html
The girl actually started estrogen therapy early enough that her breasts developed naturally, those aren't implants. I get that this is probably pretty subjective but the guy doesn't look any less manly than Justin Beiber or than I did when I was 16.
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On July 31 2013 05:42 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:39 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb. That's just...not true. Some words have multiple meanings and context can help sort out which meaning is relevant. But if words are really just whatever we want them to mean then we'd all just go around grunting hoping "context" would provide meaning for the other person.
context and presentation is just as or more important than the actual words. My problem is with people getting butthurt over the whole male female man woman semantics thing, and saying people are uneducated if they dont follow your definition.
Though apparently this is lost on you as shown by your grunting example, im sure you understand exactly what i meant and yet you try to make a problem where there is none.
On July 31 2013 05:55 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:39 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb. [bold]erm... no thats not how language works.[/bold] and... yes being passionately wrong about something without looking it up is dumb
WRONG
so a black guy calling his friend nigger and me (white) calling a random black guy a nigger is equivilant? nice to know
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On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side!
no.
stop guessing what im looking for. im citing the world health organization.
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On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X.
So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op.
These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories".
Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities.
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On July 31 2013 05:58 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:42 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:39 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. Except for the fact that most people have been using man for people with a penis and woman for people with a vagine their entire life. Words are whatever people use them as. Telling someone he is uneducated when he shows ignorance on a subject irrelevant to probably more than 99% of the population is dumb. That's just...not true. Some words have multiple meanings and context can help sort out which meaning is relevant. But if words are really just whatever we want them to mean then we'd all just go around grunting hoping "context" would provide meaning for the other person. context and presentation is just as or more important than the actual words. My problem is with people getting butthurt over the whole male female man woman semantics thing, and saying people are uneducated if they dont follow your definition. Though apparently this is lost on you as shown by your grunting example, im sure you understand exactly what i meant and yet you try to make a problem where there is none.
If you're using words incorrectly because you haven't researched the subject at all, that's the definition of uneducated. If you claim to have something to contribute to the discussion about gender dysphoria but do not even know the difference between sex and gender then yes, you are uneducated and shouldn't weigh in until you've learned more.
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On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities.
I mean you could choose to uphold your hereditary archaic prejudices, but why?
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On July 31 2013 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:On July 31 2013 04:28 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Technically, a trans woman is a man who has had surgery to alter the appearance/function of his sexual organs. At the chromosome level, there is nothing we can do to change an X to a Y or a Y to an X.
So while a trans woman might feel like a woman and associate with being a woman, she is still biologically different from a "real" woman (someone born a woman) even post-op.
These are just scientific facts. I'm not saying that it's good or bad or making any other opinion on the matter. No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with. This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all? Yes that is correct. If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman. This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest. On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times. If the women are identical then you can't claim preference. Preference isn't academic. If you can't tell a difference between the two unless one tells you she's trans...then your preferences aren't a play, your ill conceived notions of what trans means are at play.
Firstly, tell me what my notions of the meaning of trans are.
Secondly, explain how they are ill conceived.
Thirdly, explain how my sexual preferences are somehow independent from these notions.
Alternatively you could just accept that my sexual preferences include a preference for non trans people whether you can relate to this or not. Please manage to do this before you come ever closer to outright insulting me for my sexual preferences in a thread dedicated to the discussion of LGBT rights if you haven't already crossed that line.
Preference isn't academic? Do you think I'm an animal?
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On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities.
If you don't accept the terminology of the field, then what the fuck are you doing in a thread specifically about the field? GTFO.
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On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities.
"I can choose to ignore things I don't agree with and will call people what I want. If I want to call people men, even though they consider themselves a woman, I have that right. You can't make me do other wise"
You are right sir, we can't stop you from being an asshole. If you want to be one, we have not ability to prevent you from doing it. However, we will call you an Asshole to our face, because its what you are.
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On July 31 2013 06:02 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all? Yes that is correct. If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman. This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest. On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times. If the women are identical then you can't claim preference. Preference isn't academic. If you can't tell a difference between the two unless one tells you she's trans...then your preferences aren't a play, your ill conceived notions of what trans means are at play. Firstly, tell me what my notions of the meaning of trans are. Secondly, explain how they are ill conceived. Thirdly, explain how my sexual preferences are somehow independent from these notions. Alternatively you could just accept that my sexual preferences include a preference for non trans people whether that's distinguishable in your mind or not, it is in mine. Please manage to do this before you come ever closer to outright insulting me for my sexual preferences in a thread dedicated to the discussion of LGBT rights if you haven't already crossed that line. Preference isn't academic? Do you think I'm an animal?
Preference is an affinity for one characteristic over another. If the women are identical, they have no different characteristics. Making sense?
And no "trans" is not a characteristic. It means a transition from one set of characteristics to another. But it says absolutely nothing about their current characteristics.
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On July 31 2013 05:50 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". It's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that.
I'm trying to understand why you care what people identify themselves as, and why its important to call them according to their sex as opposed to their identified gender.
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On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:On July 31 2013 04:35 Iyerbeth wrote:
[quote]
No, these aren't facts. A fact is that as it turns out chromosomes don't define gender and some men and some women don't share the same chromosomes as others of their gender. A trans woman is a woman who may or may not have had surgery to correct a body issue she was born with.
This "it's just science" crap is used by bigots and by people who don't realise they're supporting them. It's not the reason people define trans women as men, or vica versa, it's a post hoc bastardisation of science which draws a conclusion which science clearly can not show - as we have men and women with chromosomes that differ from the norm - which is used to say trans people aren't *real* men and women. It's segregationism hiding behind scientific jargon. though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid. How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me. Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities.
So why don't you accept it anyway ? Is it so hard to not be an asshole and not insult trans people and gender variant people ?
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On July 31 2013 06:03 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:02 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:
[quote]
though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid.
How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all? Yes that is correct. If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman. This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest. On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times. If the women are identical then you can't claim preference. Preference isn't academic. If you can't tell a difference between the two unless one tells you she's trans...then your preferences aren't a play, your ill conceived notions of what trans means are at play. Firstly, tell me what my notions of the meaning of trans are. Secondly, explain how they are ill conceived. Thirdly, explain how my sexual preferences are somehow independent from these notions. Alternatively you could just accept that my sexual preferences include a preference for non trans people whether that's distinguishable in your mind or not, it is in mine. Please manage to do this before you come ever closer to outright insulting me for my sexual preferences in a thread dedicated to the discussion of LGBT rights if you haven't already crossed that line. Preference isn't academic? Do you think I'm an animal? Preference is an affinity for one characteristic over another. If the women are identical, they have no different characteristics. Making sense?
pref·er·ence
/ˈpref(ə)rəns/
Noun
A greater liking for one alternative over another or others.
A thing preferred.
I prefer the non trans woman to the alternative of the trans woman.
Making fucking sense?
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On July 31 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:50 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:
[quote]
though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid.
How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". "tends now", "concept", "often", It's obvious that some people are trying to push the change of this definition, but that is not how 99% of the population sees it. And since you like Wikipedia so much. "A woman /ˈwʊmən/, pl: women /ˈwɪmɨn/ is a female human." "A man is an adult human male" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManIt's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that. You won't mind if we call your rude and a jerk if you take that stance? Beause a large number of people would agree that is what you are and I don't see why we shouldn't be able to call you what you are.
I don't care, you can call me whatever you want, I'm not the one telling people how they MUST see me. You are the one saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you being a women even though you have a penis is wrong etc. If you can't see how deluded that is go ahead but please don't expect me to fall for it
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On July 31 2013 06:04 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 04:43 mustache wrote:
[quote]
though you say trans women and women are the same thing the fact is that they are not. One had their body operated to be the way it is and the other was born with it. This is the problem with any kind of debate on sexism/racism etc. People always claim that everyone is the same, black = white, trans = cis etc. Its not true. there are differences and pretending they dont exist is plain stupid.
How people cant even fathom the idea that it can be disturbing to someone else that their sex partner once had a the body of a man is beyond me.
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed? Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task. And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow. You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities. So why don't you accept it anyway ? Is it so hard to not be an asshole and not insult trans people and gender variant people ?
So calling people what they are and not what they feel like is being an asshole?
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On July 31 2013 06:06 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:03 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 06:02 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:47 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:39 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:36 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed?
Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task.
And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow.
You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. I'm referring to when you said "it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore." It definitely does undermine that point because saying "that body doesn't exist anymore" has less impact as a statement here after acknowledging "operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person" ... if you're disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman you're equally entitled to be disturbed by a man who identifies as a woman then undergoes surgery so saying it's "weird" to be disturbed by that is obviously flawed, not only by your own admission. I agree with the following and I haven't said anything to the contrary. "Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery." So it's not the surgery that bothers you...it's the fact that they're trans at all? Yes that is correct. If you presented me with two identical women that I'm attracted to physically but one is trans and the other isn't I'm going to want to want to become involved with only the non trans woman. This is not weird or wrong, my own sexual preferences are my own business and I'm fairly certain the majority of heterosexual males would feel exactly the same way. If you wish to construct a poll asking this question then be my guest. On July 31 2013 05:45 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
"Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words.
If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. I don't agree. Webster's dictionary defines "man" as: "an adult male human." Male is defined as: "an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female" Maybe what you're trying to say is that some men associate more with the societal norms and expectations traditionally associated with women. But as it is you're making up definitions for words and confusing people (and making it extremely difficult to write about the transgender topic in terms of semantics, regardless of one's opinion). I think the word you are looking for here is "gender identity." Also, I demand an apology for calling me stupid and poorly educated, as clearly the dictionary is on my side! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones. A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Get with the times. If the women are identical then you can't claim preference. Preference isn't academic. If you can't tell a difference between the two unless one tells you she's trans...then your preferences aren't a play, your ill conceived notions of what trans means are at play. Firstly, tell me what my notions of the meaning of trans are. Secondly, explain how they are ill conceived. Thirdly, explain how my sexual preferences are somehow independent from these notions. Alternatively you could just accept that my sexual preferences include a preference for non trans people whether that's distinguishable in your mind or not, it is in mine. Please manage to do this before you come ever closer to outright insulting me for my sexual preferences in a thread dedicated to the discussion of LGBT rights if you haven't already crossed that line. Preference isn't academic? Do you think I'm an animal? Preference is an affinity for one characteristic over another. If the women are identical, they have no different characteristics. Making sense? pref·er·ence /ˈpref(ə)rəns/ Noun A greater liking for one alternative over another or others. A thing preferred. I prefer the non trans woman to the alternative of the trans woman. Making fucking sense?
Trans isn't a characteristic. It's not a thing. It just indicates a transition from one set of characteristics to another. It has absolutely no descriptive power about the current person standing in front of you. You seem to be struggling with basic definitions here.
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On July 31 2013 06:08 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:04 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed?
Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task.
And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow.
You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities. So why don't you accept it anyway ? Is it so hard to not be an asshole and not insult trans people and gender variant people ? So calling people what they are and not what they feel like is being an asshole?
hey this may come as a shock to you but neither you nor someones biology impacts what someones gender is.
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On July 31 2013 06:06 theodorus12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2013 05:50 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 04:46 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Even outside of gender reassignment most of us owe the bodies we have to surgery in some form or another. Were you circumcised? Had your appendix removed? Your tonsils removed?
Operating on a body doesn't fundamentally change a person. You can scream difference all you want but finding meaningful differences will be a challenging task.
And it's weird that you would be disturbed by their previous body because that body doesn't exist anymore. The body they have now is their body. You're scared of a shadow.
You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too. If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly. If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves. It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 04:54 ComaDose wrote:
your still doing the thing where you think the word man and women have something to do with sex "Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words. If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". "tends now", "concept", "often", It's obvious that some people are trying to push the change of this definition, but that is not how 99% of the population sees it. And since you like Wikipedia so much. "A woman /ˈwʊmən/, pl: women /ˈwɪmɨn/ is a female human." "A man is an adult human male" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManIt's ok if you want to feel as a women, even though you are born male, but please don't expect the rest to call you that. You won't mind if we call your rude and a jerk if you take that stance? Beause a large number of people would agree that is what you are and I don't see why we shouldn't be able to call you what you are. I don't care, you can call me whatever you want,
Great then I would like to take this opportunity to call you a cunt.
User was warned for this post
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On July 31 2013 06:09 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:08 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 06:04 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 06:00 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:41 Reason wrote:On July 31 2013 05:38 theodorus12 wrote:On July 31 2013 05:31 Shodaa wrote:On July 31 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On July 31 2013 05:13 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:07 Reason wrote:
[quote]
You've actually undermined the point you're trying to communicate by saying this and I think you're being a little unreasonable about it too.
If someone who I view as fundamentally a man (regardless of his personal gender identification) gets an operation to remove his penis, he's still fundamentally a man as far as I'm concerned. I'm completely capable of understanding and respecting he might identify as a woman but that doesn't mean that I have to think of him as a woman myself or else I'm a total bastard. My personal relationship with gender roles and identities does not need to alter to accommodate other peoples beliefs, I just need to accept that some people view hold different beliefs and treat them accordingly.
If someone wants to view a trans person as a "woman with a penis" or a "man with no penis" they're perfectly entitled to do so if they respect that persons gender identity. If a woman with a large penis and adams apple came onto me and said "it's okay honey, I'm all woman" I'd be politely inclined to disagree and tell her I'm not interested and that's not disrespectful or bigoted or anything like that. If the same individual came onto me after they'd had their penis and adams apple removed and I don't give a fuck what else surgery they've had I'd react in the exact same way and that's entirely my choice and one I can make with a conscience clear of such negative terms. I'd refer to this individual as "she", however, if that's how they viewed themselves.
It's not weird at all that I don't want to have any contact with someone who's had a sex-change, what's weird is trying to pretend that it's not weird because they would be the first people to admit that it is. No it doesn't undermine my point. The person identifies as a woman. Having an operation to remove her penis doesn't change the way she identifies herself. Your flawed view has absolutely no bearing on them or their identity. Just because you're wrong about them doesn't mean they're suddenly different. How you react to them is your business and not relevant to the point your trying to make. I still think it's kinda weird that you'd be so hung up on a body that doesn't exist anymore but w/e (I think a lot of that comes from the fact that people don't realize how good the surgery and therapy is nowadays). Your reaction, opinion, understanding of the other person doesn't change who they are. And neither does surgery. If one considers oneself a woman but refuses to remove one's penis because one feels comfortable having one (or is simply undecided whether removing it is a good decision), then that person is clearly not a woman, and most likely has some serious mental issues. lol ? They are a lot of reason why a trans person wouldn't want that surgery. For one, it is fucking expensive, and unless that person has dysphoria regarding her or his genital, it won't help much with blending in with their gender because we don't look at genital to gender someone, we look at secondary sexual characteristic. There is also some risk, maintenance (dilating after surgery for a few hours each day). The result is not always perfect, and in the case of penis reconstruction, it's very limited. But really, don't talk about stuff like that if you have no idea what you're saying. So you really think, I should call someone a women, only because he feels like one but still has a penis? On July 31 2013 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 31 2013 05:33 DinoMight wrote:On July 31 2013 05:23 Klondikebar wrote:On July 31 2013 05:21 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
"Man" and "Woman" are two terms created precisely to refer to people of different sexes. As in, that is why we invented these words.
If you're trying to explain a greater concept about how some males associate more with being females and vice versa, then you should say that. But as is, your post is stupid. "Penis" and "Vagina" are terms created to refer to people of different sexes. "Man" and "Woman" refer to different genders. What is the difference between your sex and your gender? Was not aware there was one. I thought the reason we have "male" and "female" was to distinguish between people who have penises and people who have vaginas. What's the purpose of having the terms man and woman when either can have either reproductive organ? What is then the basis for "man" or "woman?" I REALLY don't understand... so I'm asking for someone to englighten me, not comment on how poorly educated I am. Thanks. man and women are societal constructs about the different genders. male and female are sexes based on biology. You just defined that yourself? Because actually women is defined as a female human and men as a male human... No he didn't just define that himself. Do some reading before you start trying to tell people they are wrong when they're obviously more informed on the topic than you are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinctionSex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences, while . . . [gender] often refers to cultural or social ones.A working definition in use by the World Health Organization (WHO) for its work is that "'sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories". Or you can simply choose not to accept the terminology the LGBT/feminist ideologists lobby for. Those definitions are not in any way objective, "gender studies" is not a scientific discipline, it's ideology being forced onto universities. So why don't you accept it anyway ? Is it so hard to not be an asshole and not insult trans people and gender variant people ? So calling people what they are and not what they feel like is being an asshole? hey this may come as a shock to you but neither you nor someones biology impacts what someones gender is.
We had this already, women is a female human while man is a male human. That is the standard definition. Like I said already there are of course some people who try their hardest to redefine this definitions. But please don't expect the majority to accept these "new definitions."
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EPT
