EPTCrosses chopped in Russia - Page 2
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:28 zalz wrote: http://rt.com/news/priest-orthodox-crash-car-679/ The priest crashing a sports car. As for the other, I'll see if I can find the reddit post that had a ton of examples, but they were mostly Russian news stories too trivial to be translated. Consider it retracted if I can't find it. . Well from what I saw, it just shows the priests are rich corrupt bastards. I am more curious about the Putin-Church connection. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:29 Lanfire wrote: Yes, and russian priest are flying around Russia on BMW brooms, killing people with a cackle. Honestly.... How quickly you lose track of your own position. You argued that these crimes were proof that Pussy Rioted had committed a hate crime. I said no, because the members of Pussy Riot did not commit this crime, and you cannot pile the crimes of others onto other people. If I rob a store, the government can't lock you up instead as a placeholder, nor accuse you of having robbed when it is obvious that I did it. Your reaction was linking that two members of Pussy Riot had gone on the run, thus hinting that they could be held responsible because they were still missing, so it would be possible for them to have chopped down the crosses. Then I ridiculed you for suggesting something that is so silly it does not deserve a proper response. Now you just quote me and rephrase what I said because you lost track of the red-line of the discussion. Either return to it, or go off into the uncharted wilds of nonesense land. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:33 Shiragaku wrote: Well from what I saw, it just shows the priests are rich corrupt bastards. I am more curious about the Putin-Church connection. The church backed Putin in his election. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as a connection. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/04/russia-church-idUSL6E8F40QX20120404 I linked to it a few posts before. Orthodox ties to Putin are well known, and they aren't hitching their wagon to his because they think he looks so handsome in pictures. Qued pro quo. | ||
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Xayoz
Estonia373 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:30 zalz wrote: Sure, it might be viewed as such, but what can these people do? You are looking at this from a western perspective, wondering why they can't just go and have a legitimate protest, but the problem is that they are increasingly losing legit channels to express their discontent. If I tape your mouth shut, should I really be surprised when you punch me to express discontent? Yes, in a perfect world people have respect for private property, but in that same world these people have the right to protest for their views and be safe from government persecution. Yes, they have no voice in the state-run media where they are most likely demonized all the time. I am not always in support of legitimate protest and favor action at times, and the frustration is understandable, but they are still shooting themselves in the foot by vandalizing the property. If I may use a hyperbole, the frustration of the Palestinians is understandable, but whenever they commit an act of terrorism to protest Israel's abuse of power and use of terror, they harm themselves in public relations with Israel and the world and the response by the Israeli government is to respond with more terror. | ||
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arChieSC2
Spain162 Posts
We are the most brain washed people in the planet (well maybe nk..), we defend private property before life, we do nothing when our govenments join in wars we dont want them to go, we get constantly lied and when we realize that all we say is "well i dont really care, i knew that, or in other countrys that is worse" the fact is that the media and afine governments are just telling you how evil the rest of the world is and how good "our" system is. All in all "democraZy" i love you. | ||
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Lanfire
Netherlands151 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:38 Shiragaku wrote: Yes, they have no voice in the state-run media where they are most likely demonized all the time. I am not always in support of legitimate protest and favor action at times, and the frustration is understandable, but they are still shooting themselves in the foot by vandalizing the property. If I may use a hyperbole, the frustration of the Palestinians is understandable, but whenever they commit an act of terrorism to protest Israel's abuse of power and use of terror, they harm themselves in public relations with Israel and the world and the response by the Israeli government is to respond with more terror. Maybe they are, but that doesn't change their situation. You can't expect every group to have a PR-guy on hand that will draft the perfect PR-plan for them. These people are poltically active and want to fight the power, but they can't do it through legitimate channels, so they will drift towards illegal ones. I already said that I don't agree with destroying private property, but I understand where they come from when they are marginalized in every other way. If you keep people down, they will struggle. You can argue that they don't struggle perfectly, but that is just focussing on the wrong issue. The problem isn't that they aren't protesting perfectly, it is that they can only do it through illegal channels. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:44 Lanfire wrote: I never said the members of Pussy Riot are directly responsible or should be convicted for cutting down these crosses, They give inspiration for other people for more of these actions, which was stated in the sources i gave. Your very first post in the topic: This really shows that the Pussy Riot "hooliganism" and their feminism movement was indeed a hate crime against religion You say exactly that. A third party cuts down these crosses, and you claim that this proves that their acts of "hooliganism" (the church performance) is thus a hate crime. You take the actions of other people and pile them onto Pussy Riot. You make them directly responsible for what happened to these crosses by claiming that it should be taken into consideration when viewing their church performance, and that it says anything about the performance. We are individuals, we are responsible for what we do. You argue that PR should be held responsible for the acts of others, it is ridiculous. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
In Russia the monarchy was corrupt, they exploited the people mercilessly and severly punished any kind of dissension on the part of the people... then the Communists arrived and under Lenin and Stalin were just as bad or worse. There are productive ways to fight the system apart from violence and vandalism. When I see people who resort to these measures to so call "make a point" I know that if they were in power they would be JUST as bad as the people who currently sit in power. That's why Occupy failed, is because Occupy didn't feel that they should be accountable for articulating a coherent message for their movement. They say it's enough that people get pissed off. No, it's not enough. The impulse behind Pussy Riot, and anarchist/punk movements in general don't make society a better place. At best, they simply replace one evil for another. Punk is best for the creation of good art/music, but in terms of transforming society... no, just no. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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KlinKz
Canada149 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:38 Shiragaku wrote: Yes, they have no voice in the state-run media where they are most likely demonized all the time. I am not always in support of legitimate protest and favor action at times, and the frustration is understandable, but they are still shooting themselves in the foot by vandalizing the property. If I may use a hyperbole, the frustration of the Palestinians is understandable, but whenever they commit an act of terrorism to protest Israel's abuse of power and use of terror, they harm themselves in public relations with Israel and the world and the response by the Israeli government is to respond with more terror. I totally agree with you though I'm not going to take a stance between Palestine and Israel's conflict, I must say that destroying public property would have the opposite effect that their fans or believers want to make. To bring religion into conflict just makes their statement more complex and to destroy a holy signatures like crosses's it shows the respect for religion is diminishing. Though the band is not responsible for these acts, it show how much influence this band's ideology has over the youth. I am actually a fan of Putin because he was the leader that moved Russia forward, like how Clinton did to US before his impeachment. I know a bunch of countries are against him but maybe Russia does need him. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
Get your fucking hands off of old sites, though. If you vandalize old history, you'll destroy any support you have in me. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:55 plated.rawr wrote: I approve of the action and the Femen movement. Burn churches, chop crosses and spraypaint governmental facilities. Show them you won't take the injustice lying down. Get your fucking hands off of old sites, though. If you vandalize old history, you'll destroy any support you have in me. So you can burn churches down...unless they're old? | ||
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GnarlyArbitrage
575 Posts
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:52 JeanLuc wrote: In Russia the monarchy was corrupt, they exploited the people mercilessly and severly punished any kind of dissension on the part of the people... then the Communists arrived and under Lenin and Stalin were just as bad or worse. There are productive ways to fight the system apart from violence and vandalism. When I see people who resort to these measures to so call "make a point" I know that if they were in power they would be JUST as bad as the people who currently sit in power. That's why Occupy failed, is because Occupy didn't feel that they should be accountable for articulating a coherent message for their movement. They say it's enough that people get pissed off. No, it's not enough. The impulse behind Pussy Riot, and anarchist/punk movements in general don't make society a better place. At best, they simply replace one evil for another. Punk is best for the creation of good art/music, but in terms of transforming society... no, just no. Well, I don't think the FEMEN or PR movements are really aiming for serious political control. Punk has always been about kicking against established power, not aiming to overtake it. It can transform society to some degree, but I don't think you should lose any sleep over the fear that there will be a Punk-takeover of government. | ||
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ecstatica
United States542 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:36 zalz wrote: The church backed Putin in his election. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as a connection. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/04/russia-church-idUSL6E8F40QX20120404 I linked to it a few posts before. Orthodox ties to Putin are well known, and they aren't hitching their wagon to his because they think he looks so handsome in pictures. Qued pro quo. Church needs Putin, not the opposite. Church sees him as a long-term investment, therefore they publicly voiced support during the election. Putin will flirt with the church, since it's extra votes from zealots plus majority of population technically is orthodox, but he is not commiting anywhere in a big way. | ||
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