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On August 27 2012 08:45 Shady Sands wrote:
The real thing here that people don't seem to understand is that the original purpose of the separation of Church and State was not to protect the State, but to protect the Church.
Whenever spiritual authority ends up being combined with temporal authority, you end up corrupting the original visions of both...
I agree, but we are talking about Russia here. Although I think their constitution states this separation, I doubt it will be enforced...
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On August 27 2012 08:24 SayGen wrote:
Freedom of Speech/Religion/Opinion isn't as strong in Russia as the US.
Makes me glad to be an American where I don't have to deal with that type of hatred.
Sure US has it's own Anti Religion/FreeSpeach/Opinion groups- but never at the magnatude of what the OP was talking about.
Tolerance is all too often a 1 way street.
Really? Some Muslim US citizens might disagree with you.
This isn't a thread where we pretend like US is a multicultural utopia.
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The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated.
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On August 27 2012 08:48 Hier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:24 SayGen wrote:
Freedom of Speech/Religion/Opinion isn't as strong in Russia as the US.
Makes me glad to be an American where I don't have to deal with that type of hatred.
Sure US has it's own Anti Religion/FreeSpeach/Opinion groups- but never at the magnatude of what the OP was talking about.
Tolerance is all too often a 1 way street. Really? Some Muslim US citizens might disagree with you. This isn't a thread where we pretend like US is a multicultural utopia.
Sigh lets try this again.
Freedom of Speech/Religion/Opinion isn't as strong in Russia as the US.
Makes me glad to be an American where I don't have to deal with that type of hatred.
Sure US has it's own Anti Religion/FreeSpeach/Opinion groups- but never at the magnatude of what the OP was talking about.
Tolerance is all too often a 1 way street.
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They are attacking the wrong people, it isnt the churches fault, it's the Russian Governments.
And these seem like tiny, isolated incodents, why is everyone making a big deal about this?
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On August 27 2012 05:48 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 04:06 InRaged wrote:On August 27 2012 03:27 Zato-1 wrote:On August 27 2012 00:12 Shiragaku wrote:
Wow...their priorities are not straight. It is Putin, not Christianity that they should be after. Pussy Riot protested in a church, but it was not the Church that ruined the election.
And regardless of what you may think of religion in general, this will definitely rally Christians in Russia against atheists. Except for the fact that the Orthodox Church in Russia is extremely cozy with the Putin regime, and validates it. If you're gonna oppose Putin and his government, you're sooner or later going to have to run into the Orthodox Church there. While the means are questionable, I definitely approve of the underlying intention of communicating people's dissatisfaction with the church there. BREAKING: Four Google offices are vandalised after stating support for gays. Comments from the news piece reads: "Except for the fact that the lgbt movement in US is extremely cozy with the Obama regime, and validates it. If you're gonna oppose Obama and his government, you're sooner or later going to have to run into the lgbt movement there While the means are questionable, I definitely approve of the underlying intention of communicating people's dissatisfaction with the gays there." haha, nice try. A few differences: *The "Obama regime" isn't an autocratic government that locks up (or assassinates) everyone who speaks out against them. *The LGBT communities are hardly a pillar of legitimacy for Obama's government in the US. If you wanted to stand up to Obama for... something, then conflicts with the LGBT communities aren't something you should be overly concerned with. Your analogy is nothing more than dumb ridicule.
" locks up (or assassinates) everyone who speaks out against "
There is a lot wrong with that statement, I do believe you have no idea what you're talking about ^^ The only difference is that they usually add a different tag which then gives them cause to lock up etc. There is a reason Assange is shitting his pants about extradition.
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On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated.
Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common.
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On August 27 2012 08:51 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:48 Hier wrote:On August 27 2012 08:24 SayGen wrote:
Freedom of Speech/Religion/Opinion isn't as strong in Russia as the US.
Makes me glad to be an American where I don't have to deal with that type of hatred.
Sure US has it's own Anti Religion/FreeSpeach/Opinion groups- but never at the magnatude of what the OP was talking about.
Tolerance is all too often a 1 way street. Really? Some Muslim US citizens might disagree with you. This isn't a thread where we pretend like US is a multicultural utopia. Sigh lets try this again. Freedom of Speech/Religion/Opinion isn't as strong in Russia as the US. Makes me glad to be an American where I don't have to deal with that type of hatred. Sure US has it's own Anti Religion/FreeSpeach/Opinion groups- but never at the magnatude of what the OP was talking about.Tolerance is all too often a 1 way street.
Never at the magnitude of what the OP was talking about? You mean 4 crosses getting chopped down? No, there are plenty of examples of far more severe cases of hate crime in the USA. Don't bring up such poor comparisons, we are talking about Russia's problems, not USA's apparent lack of.
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On August 27 2012 09:02 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated. Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common.
Either really, from what I can tell this has almost nothing to do with the church, it just happened to take place inside of one. This isnt about what was being protested, it's about the extreme punishment for what should of really been a misdemeanor.
Again, I don't see why people are mad at the church, it's the government that should be being protested against
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On August 27 2012 09:02 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated. Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common.
Show me one group of people (religious or not) who act in full accordince with the vlaues of their proclaimed leader?
Muslims don't act like Muhammad instructed.
Jews don't act in accordance with the Old Testament law (Torrah)
Christains, Liberals, Conservatives, INSERT ANY GROUP HERE.
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Gyaaahhhh religion hating debating central is about to erupt!!!!!!
Stop arguing about it, it's silly and is going to result in a huge derail!
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On August 27 2012 09:08 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 09:02 HunterX11 wrote:On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated. Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common. Show me one group of people (religious or not) who act in full accordince with the vlaues of their proclaimed leader? Muslims don't act like Muhammad instructed. Jews don't act in accordance with the Old Testament law (Torrah) Christains, Liberals, Conservatives, INSERT ANY GROUP HERE.
I think his entire point was that religious people don't act like the "savior" they so wish to be like at all, most are extremely off the "love everyone" teachings. He wasn't specifically targeting christian's but all of religion (this story is specifically about Christians though so it fit)
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On August 27 2012 09:08 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 09:02 HunterX11 wrote:On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated. Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common. Show me one group of people (religious or not) who act in full accordince with the vlaues of their proclaimed leader? Muslims don't act like Muhammad instructed. Jews don't act in accordance with the Old Testament law (Torrah) Christains, Liberals, Conservatives, INSERT ANY GROUP HERE.
There's a difference between not acting in full accordance and acting largely in opposition, though. Besides, the major Christian churches are all very different from the original cult of Christ in the first place, so even if Christians were better about adhering to their own dogma, it is still a dogma that is derived from, but very different from, the teachings of Christ.
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On August 27 2012 08:55 TheBatman wrote:
They are attacking the wrong people, it isnt the churches fault, it's the Russian Governments.
And these seem like tiny, isolated incodents, why is everyone making a big deal about this?
Because it opens the door for religion bashing and debate. Something that never works out very well here on TL.
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On August 27 2012 08:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:43 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:39 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 08:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
And after the church acted with such forgiveness in accordance with Jesus' teachings with regards to Pussy Riot. Violence hate will always trumph love and forgiveness. A man holds a gun to your head and is about to pull the trigger. You can try to love and forgive him all you want but at the end of the day your going to die. The Bible talks just as much about disipline as it does love. The Bible never taught alot of tolerance, that's modern religion. How is love not tolerant? It's limited to the people you're not supposed to hate (for being gay for instance). You wont find a single reference in the new testament about hating gays. Gays are hardly even mentioned throughout the bible as a whole, really. Nor are there any modern day churches that teach that. You basically just pulled it out of your ass.
There is no such thing as a love that physically beats you into submission. Christianity inherently calls for tolerance [not acceptance], and fortunately most Christians now act in accordance to their own teachings.
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On August 27 2012 09:19 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 09:08 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 09:02 HunterX11 wrote:On August 27 2012 08:50 SayGen wrote:
The Bible never says HATE gay people, it says don't be gay.
People who make life shitty for gays in the name of God arn't one of his followers.
Don't blame Christains for things that Christains don't believe.
Anyone can claim the name of God/Christ.
Remember last year when a bunch of Liberals went to a Tea PArty rally and acted like a bunch of KKK supporting idiots to make the Tea Party look Racist?
Same thing.
Don't blame Christ for the way gays are treated. Whom is it we shouldn't blame? Christians or Christ? The two clearly have very little in common. Show me one group of people (religious or not) who act in full accordince with the vlaues of their proclaimed leader? Muslims don't act like Muhammad instructed. Jews don't act in accordance with the Old Testament law (Torrah) Christains, Liberals, Conservatives, INSERT ANY GROUP HERE. There's a difference between not acting in full accordance and acting largely in opposition, though. Besides, the major Christian churches are all very different from the original cult of Christ in the first place, so even if Christians were better about adhering to their own dogma, it is still a dogma that is derived from, but very different from, the teachings of Christ.
I'm not sure what your saying, can you reword it and add a few nouns; opposition to what?
Which Christian churches? There is only one. Antioch was the 1st place Christains came into being.
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch. 23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.
25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. 26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
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On August 27 2012 09:57 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 08:45 Djzapz wrote:On August 27 2012 08:43 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:39 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 08:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
And after the church acted with such forgiveness in accordance with Jesus' teachings with regards to Pussy Riot. Violence hate will always trumph love and forgiveness. A man holds a gun to your head and is about to pull the trigger. You can try to love and forgive him all you want but at the end of the day your going to die. The Bible talks just as much about disipline as it does love. The Bible never taught alot of tolerance, that's modern religion. How is love not tolerant? It's limited to the people you're not supposed to hate (for being gay for instance). You wont find a single reference in the new testament about hating gays. Gays are hardly even mentioned throughout the bible as a whole, really. Nor are there any modern day churches that teach that. You basically just pulled it out of your ass. There is no such thing as a love that physically beats you into submission. Christianity inherently calls for tolerance [not acceptance], and fortunately most Christians now act in accordance to their own teachings.
While I agree with your premesis and conclusion the one statement you made was wrong. The bible tlaks in-depth about homosexuality. Here's a few:
The bible says Homosexuality is wrong:
Leviticus 18:22 Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6 –10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11
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On August 27 2012 10:03 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 09:57 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:45 Djzapz wrote:On August 27 2012 08:43 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:39 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 08:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
And after the church acted with such forgiveness in accordance with Jesus' teachings with regards to Pussy Riot. Violence hate will always trumph love and forgiveness. A man holds a gun to your head and is about to pull the trigger. You can try to love and forgive him all you want but at the end of the day your going to die. The Bible talks just as much about disipline as it does love. The Bible never taught alot of tolerance, that's modern religion. How is love not tolerant? It's limited to the people you're not supposed to hate (for being gay for instance). You wont find a single reference in the new testament about hating gays. Gays are hardly even mentioned throughout the bible as a whole, really. Nor are there any modern day churches that teach that. You basically just pulled it out of your ass. There is no such thing as a love that physically beats you into submission. Christianity inherently calls for tolerance [not acceptance], and fortunately most Christians now act in accordance to their own teachings. While I agree with your premesis and conclusion the one statement you made was wrong. The bible tlaks in-depth about homosexuality. Here's a few: The bible says Homosexuality is wrong: Leviticus 18:22 Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6 –10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 IIRC Cornithians and timothy both actually say something closer to "fornicators" than homosexuals, though modern translations use homosexual in order to make explicit that it is morally impermissible [due to liberal Christianity etc]. Explicitly you only have about two verses against homosexuality, and then a few which are implied. Which isnt too much. Non Christians always have this perspective that the bible rails on and on against homosexuality wherein in reality its mentioned just as any other sin, not given any particularly great focus, thats all I meant.
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On August 27 2012 10:07 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:03 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 09:57 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:45 Djzapz wrote:On August 27 2012 08:43 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:39 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 08:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
And after the church acted with such forgiveness in accordance with Jesus' teachings with regards to Pussy Riot. Violence hate will always trumph love and forgiveness. A man holds a gun to your head and is about to pull the trigger. You can try to love and forgive him all you want but at the end of the day your going to die. The Bible talks just as much about disipline as it does love. The Bible never taught alot of tolerance, that's modern religion. How is love not tolerant? It's limited to the people you're not supposed to hate (for being gay for instance). You wont find a single reference in the new testament about hating gays. Gays are hardly even mentioned throughout the bible as a whole, really. Nor are there any modern day churches that teach that. You basically just pulled it out of your ass. There is no such thing as a love that physically beats you into submission. Christianity inherently calls for tolerance [not acceptance], and fortunately most Christians now act in accordance to their own teachings. While I agree with your premesis and conclusion the one statement you made was wrong. The bible tlaks in-depth about homosexuality. Here's a few: The bible says Homosexuality is wrong: Leviticus 18:22 Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6 –10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 IIRC Cornithians and timothy both actually say something closer to "fornicators" than homosexuals, though modern translations use homosexual in order to make explicit that it is morally impermissible [due to liberal Christianity etc]. Explicitly you only have about two verses against homosexuality, and then a few which are implied. Which isnt too much. Non Christians always have this perspective that the bible rails on and on against homosexuality wherein in reality its mentioned just as any other sin, not given any particularly great focus, thats all I meant.
Sin is sin. Only man puts value on sin. What is a 'worse' sin.
The Bible only mention a few sins that stand out.
So yes your right, Non Christians do have alot of incorrect perseptions on the religion.
I think we are saying the same thing 
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On August 27 2012 10:12 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:07 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 10:03 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 09:57 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:45 Djzapz wrote:On August 27 2012 08:43 whatevername wrote:On August 27 2012 08:39 SayGen wrote:On August 27 2012 08:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
And after the church acted with such forgiveness in accordance with Jesus' teachings with regards to Pussy Riot. Violence hate will always trumph love and forgiveness. A man holds a gun to your head and is about to pull the trigger. You can try to love and forgive him all you want but at the end of the day your going to die. The Bible talks just as much about disipline as it does love. The Bible never taught alot of tolerance, that's modern religion. How is love not tolerant? It's limited to the people you're not supposed to hate (for being gay for instance). You wont find a single reference in the new testament about hating gays. Gays are hardly even mentioned throughout the bible as a whole, really. Nor are there any modern day churches that teach that. You basically just pulled it out of your ass. There is no such thing as a love that physically beats you into submission. Christianity inherently calls for tolerance [not acceptance], and fortunately most Christians now act in accordance to their own teachings. While I agree with your premesis and conclusion the one statement you made was wrong. The bible tlaks in-depth about homosexuality. Here's a few: The bible says Homosexuality is wrong: Leviticus 18:22 Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6 –10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 IIRC Cornithians and timothy both actually say something closer to "fornicators" than homosexuals, though modern translations use homosexual in order to make explicit that it is morally impermissible [due to liberal Christianity etc]. Explicitly you only have about two verses against homosexuality, and then a few which are implied. Which isnt too much. Non Christians always have this perspective that the bible rails on and on against homosexuality wherein in reality its mentioned just as any other sin, not given any particularly great focus, thats all I meant. Sin is sin. Only man puts value on sin. What is a 'worse' sin. The Bible only mention a few sins that stand out. So yes your right, Non Christians do have alot of incorrect perseptions on the religion. I think we are saying the same thing
It is ironic that religion even mentions homosexuality as a bad thing seeing as when Christ was around, Rome was rampid with homosexuality... It was completely normal to be bisexual, gay, straight and no one saw an issue with it. It is rather ironic how religion can really turn around progress. (best episode of family guy is the one where they go to the year 2000 if religion never existed and people are on space ships and shit flying around like Star Wars ^^)
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