|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 05 2019 00:32 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2019 22:21 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 21:30 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 19:58 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 19:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 18:13 Alur wrote:On August 04 2019 17:47 Emnjay808 wrote:
Only a matter of time before this happens in my state.
Going to consult with my uncles what gun is best to carry with me. Always favored 1911s. I don't mean to condescend. But I'm glad I live somewhere where this line of thinking is unnecessary. don't be a jerk. every country is susceptible to terrorist attack. don't relish in that you weren't there when the last one happened. that's beyond rude. But NOT every country has a mass shooting happen every day (Or every week, or even every month, depending on what metric you use to define mass shooting i guess). Or just random people constantly dying to guns without a mass shooting. In fact, only one country has this problem. You need to realize that this is NOT normal in a first world country. And that you COULD do something about this, but choose not to. For reasons that people outside of the US find utterly absurd and insane when compared to the actual and real cost in human lives you choose to accept as unavoidable. So he does have a point. And i agree with him. I, too, am happy to live in a country where i don't need to live in constant fear of every other person on the street possibly carrying a deadly weapon only designed to kill people with maximum efficiency, and randomly choosing that i should end living right now. i don't live in constant fear. at this point mass shootings are normalized to the point where one happens now, you just have to say, fuck, that sucks. i don't understand how gun regulation would deter these kinds of events. this is very normal for us. in a country of 320 million people, you are going to have a bad actor every now and again. the only thing that pisses me off is that he had body armor. if this is not normal and avoidable, please say how this could be avoided. the guns are purchased legally after a waiting period. as i've stated before, the soft solution is better and more available psychological care for all. being able to target one person who has become radicalized to the point where they would carry out a mass shooting is like looking for a needle in a haystack even with infinite surveillance. Short term, you can not do anything, because the guns already exist and are not going to randomly disappear. In the long term, you need to go away from a general right to carry arms towards owning and using guns being a privilege. Have classes on guns safety be mandatory for owning a gun. Require a reason to own a gun, and have the gun fit that reason. Defense against wild animals, membership in a sports shooting club, hunting etc... are all legitimate reasons. Being employed and certified as a bodyguard or security person is also one, and might even allow for open carry. Have every gun be registered, and have that registry be linked to a person and permit. If a crime is committed with that gun and it isn't registered as stolen, you know who to talk to first. If someone constantly gets their guns stolen, no longer give them permits to own guns. No longer have it be legal to carry ready-to-use guns in public. No concealed carry, no open carry. The only situation in which you are allowed to have your gun in public outside of the specific legitimate reason you have to own that gun is for transport towards that purpose, and in that case it needs to be not loaded, and separate from ammunition. Close all silly loopholes that allow people to acquire guns without the necessary paperwork. Now, this is an end goal, not an instant solution. You obviously need to figure out how to deal with the already existing millions of guns, but if you implement the legal framework, and then have buyback programs, punishments for being caught with an unregistered gun and the ability to register your preexisting guns, you are going to eventually get the situation under control. gun owners laugh at buyback programs. guns are indelible to the culture in some parts. that's why creating retroactive programs won't work as there are already hundreds of millions of guns on the street and in the hands of civilians. this is not something with clear-cut solutions. so that's why i'm advocating the soft approach of making psychological health services more available. will this curb all mass shootings? no. could it stop one? maybe. that's all i'm looking for at this point.
Yeah. But once no more new guns get into the system, or those that do are controlled (as described above), every gun you take out of the system is one less gun in the system. So if you keep buybacks going, confiscate illegal guns you find, and keep this going for a longer period of time, you eventually get to a point where you have a more healthy amount of guns in the country. It takes time, but since there really isn't any method to go from US today to sane gun US tomorrow, anything you do takes time. I don't really see that as a big problem though.
I totally agree that healthcare, including psychological healthcare, should be more affordable and available for all americans, and would support pushes into that direction, too. I don't see them as very related to guns, though. It mostly seems to be a US conservative distraction talking point, where when you talk about guns, they say "No, this is about healthcare", and when you talk about healthcare, they don't really want any.
|
On August 05 2019 00:40 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2019 00:13 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 23:50 Bleak wrote:On August 04 2019 19:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 18:13 Alur wrote:On August 04 2019 17:47 Emnjay808 wrote:
Only a matter of time before this happens in my state.
Going to consult with my uncles what gun is best to carry with me. Always favored 1911s. I don't mean to condescend. But I'm glad I live somewhere where this line of thinking is unnecessary. don't be a jerk. every country is susceptible to terrorist attack. don't relish in that you weren't there when the last one happened. that's beyond rude. Nah, I don't think he is rude. The shootings are a cultural problem. A part of US culture is very violent. How do you otherwise explain all the wars and the gun craze? guns is big business in the usa. similar to religion, it is a toy that you cannot take away from a lot of these babies. any regulations on any kind of arms even assault rifles will be met with lots of resistance and money politickin'. i agree with the above posts-- there need be more regulations on gun ownership and the caliber/amount of ammunition should be commensurate with one's 'need' to have such a weapon. but the guns are already out there and it will be near impossible to regulate guns that are already in citizens' hands. if you put into place all the above measures, new guns will be more expensive and there will be a huge black market for the guns that are already here. and there are hundreds of millions of guns already in the hands of civilians Just to add a few things. One Assult rifles are already heavily regulated (until you look into the decade's old regulations where they're basically like cars) the smaller the caliber of bullet the more dangerous for these mass shooter situations. The illegally made gun market in America is already pretty established especially on the west coast for hundred-year-old pistols that are still the best for their use. And on that, the real metric for mass shootings and gun deaths is the pistol. compared to the amount of black people that are killed every year from pistols its really not worth the effort to continue to crusade against just assault (new word of the month)'s.
yeah i guarantee there are way more people killed in small shootings with pistols vs. mass shootings with assault rifles. there are just way too many guns on the street for there to be any retroactive program to get rid of them. you can regulate the sales of new guns but that doesn't do anything about the hundreds of millions of guns already in the hands of civilians
|
On August 05 2019 00:42 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2019 00:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 22:21 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 21:30 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 19:58 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 19:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 18:13 Alur wrote:On August 04 2019 17:47 Emnjay808 wrote:
Only a matter of time before this happens in my state.
Going to consult with my uncles what gun is best to carry with me. Always favored 1911s. I don't mean to condescend. But I'm glad I live somewhere where this line of thinking is unnecessary. don't be a jerk. every country is susceptible to terrorist attack. don't relish in that you weren't there when the last one happened. that's beyond rude. But NOT every country has a mass shooting happen every day (Or every week, or even every month, depending on what metric you use to define mass shooting i guess). Or just random people constantly dying to guns without a mass shooting. In fact, only one country has this problem. You need to realize that this is NOT normal in a first world country. And that you COULD do something about this, but choose not to. For reasons that people outside of the US find utterly absurd and insane when compared to the actual and real cost in human lives you choose to accept as unavoidable. So he does have a point. And i agree with him. I, too, am happy to live in a country where i don't need to live in constant fear of every other person on the street possibly carrying a deadly weapon only designed to kill people with maximum efficiency, and randomly choosing that i should end living right now. i don't live in constant fear. at this point mass shootings are normalized to the point where one happens now, you just have to say, fuck, that sucks. i don't understand how gun regulation would deter these kinds of events. this is very normal for us. in a country of 320 million people, you are going to have a bad actor every now and again. the only thing that pisses me off is that he had body armor. if this is not normal and avoidable, please say how this could be avoided. the guns are purchased legally after a waiting period. as i've stated before, the soft solution is better and more available psychological care for all. being able to target one person who has become radicalized to the point where they would carry out a mass shooting is like looking for a needle in a haystack even with infinite surveillance. Short term, you can not do anything, because the guns already exist and are not going to randomly disappear. In the long term, you need to go away from a general right to carry arms towards owning and using guns being a privilege. Have classes on guns safety be mandatory for owning a gun. Require a reason to own a gun, and have the gun fit that reason. Defense against wild animals, membership in a sports shooting club, hunting etc... are all legitimate reasons. Being employed and certified as a bodyguard or security person is also one, and might even allow for open carry. Have every gun be registered, and have that registry be linked to a person and permit. If a crime is committed with that gun and it isn't registered as stolen, you know who to talk to first. If someone constantly gets their guns stolen, no longer give them permits to own guns. No longer have it be legal to carry ready-to-use guns in public. No concealed carry, no open carry. The only situation in which you are allowed to have your gun in public outside of the specific legitimate reason you have to own that gun is for transport towards that purpose, and in that case it needs to be not loaded, and separate from ammunition. Close all silly loopholes that allow people to acquire guns without the necessary paperwork. Now, this is an end goal, not an instant solution. You obviously need to figure out how to deal with the already existing millions of guns, but if you implement the legal framework, and then have buyback programs, punishments for being caught with an unregistered gun and the ability to register your preexisting guns, you are going to eventually get the situation under control. gun owners laugh at buyback programs. guns are indelible to the culture in some parts. that's why creating retroactive programs won't work as there are already hundreds of millions of guns on the street and in the hands of civilians. this is not something with clear-cut solutions. so that's why i'm advocating the soft approach of making psychological health services more available. will this curb all mass shootings? no. could it stop one? maybe. that's all i'm looking for at this point. Yeah. But once no more new guns get into the system, or those that do are controlled (as described above), every gun you take out of the system is one less gun in the system. So if you keep buybacks going, confiscate illegal guns you find, and keep this going for a longer period of time, you eventually get to a point where you have a more healthy amount of guns in the country. It takes time, but since there really isn't any method to go from US today to sane gun US tomorrow, anything you do takes time. I don't really see that as a big problem though. I totally agree that healthcare, including psychological healthcare, should be more affordable and available for all americans, and would support pushes into that direction, too. I don't see them as very related to guns, though. It mostly seems to be a US conservative distraction talking point, where when you talk about guns, they say "No, this is about healthcare", and when you talk about healthcare, they don't really want any.
slowly increment out guns one by one is not going to do anything, either. maybe over 500 years.
|
But it is the place you need to start at nonetheless. Because if you don't regulate the sale of new guns, anything you do about the existing guns is pointless.
So deal with the thing that can be influenced, namely the sale of new guns, and then slowly over time figure out how to reduce the amount of old guns. Sure, it would be better to already be at the goal, but that is not the case.
So better do things that you can do rather than just throwing up your hands and say that nothing can be done anyways.
|
really won't do anything about mass shootings and will place restrictions on responsible gun owners. time is money. like i said, too much money in guns to even do that.
|
5930 Posts
Talk about a 90s throwback, we’re already getting politicians blaming battle royale and FPS games and wanting to regulate them.
Thanks Texas Politician Dan Patrick, thank you for your contribution. Sonic the Hedgehog has taught me that it is ok to go 100 in a 40 zone, we should ban Sonic the Hedgehog games because
|
|
|
The guy was a white supremacist and they’re blaming video games? These politicians are being ignorant on purpose. These shootings are only going to get worse as I mentioned before. This isn’t about mental health either, this is obviously about terrorism.
|
5930 Posts
There’s a certain amusement to see all of these politicians completely refuse to point out the problem is a combination of political radicalisation and ease of gun access.
Well, I guess they do point out the political radicalisation issue. But they only direct it at the Antifa, whose sole mission is to beat up Nazis and no one else. Gee, if you had any clear cut efforts to stamp out the Nazis maybe the Antifa wouldn’t exist or have any legitimacy.
|
On August 05 2019 00:32 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2019 22:21 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 21:30 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 19:58 Simberto wrote:On August 04 2019 19:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 18:13 Alur wrote:On August 04 2019 17:47 Emnjay808 wrote:
Only a matter of time before this happens in my state.
Going to consult with my uncles what gun is best to carry with me. Always favored 1911s. I don't mean to condescend. But I'm glad I live somewhere where this line of thinking is unnecessary. don't be a jerk. every country is susceptible to terrorist attack. don't relish in that you weren't there when the last one happened. that's beyond rude. But NOT every country has a mass shooting happen every day (Or every week, or even every month, depending on what metric you use to define mass shooting i guess). Or just random people constantly dying to guns without a mass shooting. In fact, only one country has this problem. You need to realize that this is NOT normal in a first world country. And that you COULD do something about this, but choose not to. For reasons that people outside of the US find utterly absurd and insane when compared to the actual and real cost in human lives you choose to accept as unavoidable. So he does have a point. And i agree with him. I, too, am happy to live in a country where i don't need to live in constant fear of every other person on the street possibly carrying a deadly weapon only designed to kill people with maximum efficiency, and randomly choosing that i should end living right now. i don't live in constant fear. at this point mass shootings are normalized to the point where one happens now, you just have to say, fuck, that sucks. i don't understand how gun regulation would deter these kinds of events. this is very normal for us. in a country of 320 million people, you are going to have a bad actor every now and again. the only thing that pisses me off is that he had body armor. if this is not normal and avoidable, please say how this could be avoided. the guns are purchased legally after a waiting period. as i've stated before, the soft solution is better and more available psychological care for all. being able to target one person who has become radicalized to the point where they would carry out a mass shooting is like looking for a needle in a haystack even with infinite surveillance. Short term, you can not do anything, because the guns already exist and are not going to randomly disappear. In the long term, you need to go away from a general right to carry arms towards owning and using guns being a privilege. Have classes on guns safety be mandatory for owning a gun. Require a reason to own a gun, and have the gun fit that reason. Defense against wild animals, membership in a sports shooting club, hunting etc... are all legitimate reasons. Being employed and certified as a bodyguard or security person is also one, and might even allow for open carry. Have every gun be registered, and have that registry be linked to a person and permit. If a crime is committed with that gun and it isn't registered as stolen, you know who to talk to first. If someone constantly gets their guns stolen, no longer give them permits to own guns. No longer have it be legal to carry ready-to-use guns in public. No concealed carry, no open carry. The only situation in which you are allowed to have your gun in public outside of the specific legitimate reason you have to own that gun is for transport towards that purpose, and in that case it needs to be not loaded, and separate from ammunition. Close all silly loopholes that allow people to acquire guns without the necessary paperwork. Now, this is an end goal, not an instant solution. You obviously need to figure out how to deal with the already existing millions of guns, but if you implement the legal framework, and then have buyback programs, punishments for being caught with an unregistered gun and the ability to register your preexisting guns, you are going to eventually get the situation under control. gun owners laugh at buyback programs. guns are indelible to the culture in some parts. that's why creating retroactive programs won't work as there are already hundreds of millions of guns on the street and in the hands of civilians. this is not something with clear-cut solutions. so that's why i'm advocating the soft approach of making psychological health services more available. will this curb all mass shootings? no. could it stop one? maybe. that's all i'm looking for at this point.
Regulating guns and reducing the numbers of guns in the US = Harder than solving issues with the human psyche
|
Though improving the US healthcare system, especially with regards to mental healths, but also in general, is similarly not a very hard thing to do. It doesn't mean that you need to understand all of human psyche, you just need to actually make therapy available for everyone who needs it, as opposed to only to those who can afford it.
|
Except that there is a shortage of mental health professional in the US to begin with. That's under current conditions of only people with means seeking them, let alone the numbers it would be at if we encouraged it more and made it more affordable.
That's why it's absurd to claim that gun regulation and buy back programs are somehow monumental tasks but mental health is not.
|
Rebuilding trust in the healthcare system such that the people who need treatment seek it out is indeed going to be a very gradual, incremental process that merely starts with nationwide payment infrastructure reform (in much the same way that actually reducing the number of firearms is going to require incremental steps forward).
|
On August 05 2019 00:40 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2019 00:13 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 23:50 Bleak wrote:On August 04 2019 19:07 Alejandrisha wrote:On August 04 2019 18:13 Alur wrote:On August 04 2019 17:47 Emnjay808 wrote:
Only a matter of time before this happens in my state.
Going to consult with my uncles what gun is best to carry with me. Always favored 1911s. I don't mean to condescend. But I'm glad I live somewhere where this line of thinking is unnecessary. don't be a jerk. every country is susceptible to terrorist attack. don't relish in that you weren't there when the last one happened. that's beyond rude. Nah, I don't think he is rude. The shootings are a cultural problem. A part of US culture is very violent. How do you otherwise explain all the wars and the gun craze? guns is big business in the usa. similar to religion, it is a toy that you cannot take away from a lot of these babies. any regulations on any kind of arms even assault rifles will be met with lots of resistance and money politickin'. i agree with the above posts-- there need be more regulations on gun ownership and the caliber/amount of ammunition should be commensurate with one's 'need' to have such a weapon. but the guns are already out there and it will be near impossible to regulate guns that are already in citizens' hands. if you put into place all the above measures, new guns will be more expensive and there will be a huge black market for the guns that are already here. and there are hundreds of millions of guns already in the hands of civilians Just to add a few things. One Assult rifles are already heavily regulated (until you look into the decade's old regulations where they're basically like cars) the smaller the caliber of bullet the more dangerous for these mass shooter situations. The illegally made gun market in America is already pretty established especially on the west coast for hundred-year-old pistols that are still the best for their use. And on that, the real metric for mass shootings and gun deaths is the pistol. compared to the amount of black people that are killed every year from pistols its really not worth the effort to continue to crusade against just assault (new word of the month)'s.
Edit: My apologies for the rudeness.
In regards to both of the extremely deadly mass shootings this weekend.
"In less than one minute, Dayton first responders neutralized the shooter," Whaley said.
"I really want to -- think about that minute. The shooter was able to kill nine people and injure 26 in less than a minute. And if we did not have police in the Oregon District and the thousands of people in the Oregon District enjoying their Saturday evening, what we could have had in this city," Whaley said.
"The question has to be raised, why does Dayton have to be the 250th mass shooting this year?"
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/04/us/dayton-ohio-active-shooter/index.html
This is why the argument to have more guns to "stop" mass shootings, is just a BS argument. A one minute response time is the best any mass shooting could hope for, still 9 dead and 26 injured.
You can't stop this kind of violence by returning fire, by the time anyone knows what is going on, 0-30 are dead.
|
United States24676 Posts
I think the confusion over the term "Assault rifle" may be what stops us from making progress on this issue for the next several decades.
|
|
|
On August 05 2019 01:29 micronesia wrote:
I think the confusion over the term "Assault rifle" may be what stops us from making progress on this issue for the next several decades.
That is the quintessential straw man argument, and has nothing to do with many other sensical solutions like background checks and limited magazine size that never got enacted.
Money is the reason nothing has happened to make progress.
People with power that built an industry (for profit) around violence, abuse that industry for max profit. The secondary (side) affect to guns is that people get killed who are around them.
Just like smoking, people abused that industry and continued to.
|
|
|
On August 05 2019 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
There is a pretty simple fix, it is just do what all the countries who don't have these issues do in regards to regulation of fire arms. You could pick one of about 75 countries to model it after.
oh shit i forgot every country was the same yeah we should just do what australia did and take away all the guns and see what happens
|
On August 05 2019 02:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2019 01:29 micronesia wrote:
I think the confusion over the term "Assault rifle" may be what stops us from making progress on this issue for the next several decades. That is a manufactured issue to stop your country from making progress. No other developed country is confused.
not every country has swat teams with insane fire power. the right is afraid of despotism and so they cling to their guns. you can't take them away from them. if you try they will shoot you. this isn't canada.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
