EPTIf you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
Simberto
Germany11635 Posts
| ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
| ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States45077 Posts
(It sacrifices perfect rhymes and line length for truth.) Yesterday twas a shooting in El Paso, Today there was one in Ohio; We say 'thoughts and prayers' Though nobody cares I wonder where the shooting will be tomorrow. Nothing's gonna change. Polls will continue to show that most Americans (including conservatives and even NRA members) are in favor of common sense gun reform, like closing loopholes, requiring licenses, and having mandatory training programs for new gun owners. But the NRA has a stranglehold on Republican politicians, so it doesn't matter. Research will continue to show the correlation between gun violence and poverty, yet Republican politicians are actively stopping any attempt at lifting people out of poverty (e.g., affordable healthcare, raising minimum wage). Especially if it means helping communities that are disproportionately non-white. Every day will continue to show that the average (mode) mass shooter is a *conservative, white male*, but those three words also define the largest Republican demographic, so instead we'll just continue to have white supremacists- and other people inspired by Fox News and Donald Trump's racist rhetoric- shoot up schools and stores and churches. I don't see how things will ever change for the better, unless our federal and state governments all magically turn into a Democratic majority. Until then, Republicans will continue to push strawman talking points like "Democrats want to ban all guns." | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:33 Starlightsun wrote: So tired of this endless debate and nothing gets done. How do people get so attached to their "culture" of owning deadly weapons for killing other people? Time for constitutional reform already. so long as the government has arms at tier x, the people will want to have weapons at tier x, or at least tier x - 1. it's how the country was founded. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Simberto
Germany11635 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:31 Alejandrisha wrote: no it's not exceptionalism. it's that we have 200 million+ guns on the street already and 320 million people. don't pretend that we can emulate nordic countries with less than 10 million or canada with 30 million people. you are trying to shove a square into a circle So, what is your plan? You seem to agree that this is a problem? Yet you only argue for doing nothing as far as i can tell. That seems weird to me. (Also, the argument you are making right there is that america is exceptional (as in, different from all others)) | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I now present to you my newest poem, "America: The Limerick". (It sacrifices perfect rhymes and line length for truth.) Yesterday twas a shooting in El Paso, Today there was one in Ohio; We say 'thoughts and prayers' Though nobody cares I wonder where the shooting will be tomorrow. Nothing's gonna change. Polls will continue to show that most Americans (including conservatives and even NRA members) are in favor of common sense gun reform, like closing loopholes, requiring licenses, and having mandatory training programs for new gun owners. But the NRA has a stranglehold on Republican politicians, so it doesn't matter. Research will continue to show the correlation between gun violence and poverty, yet Republican politicians are actively stopping any attempt at lifting people out of poverty (e.g., affordable healthcare, raising minimum wage). Especially if it means helping communities that are disproportionately non-white. Every day will continue to show that the average (mode) mass shooter is a *conservative, white male*, but those three words also define the largest Republican demographic, so instead we'll just continue to have white supremacists- and other people inspired by Fox News and Donald Trump's racist rhetoric- shoot up schools and stores and churches. I don't see how things will ever change for the better, unless our federal and state governments all magically turn into a Democratic majority. Until then, Republicans will continue to push strawman talking points like "Democrats want to ban all guns." yes. the number one killer of people in the united states is poverty. not the availability of guns. we have so many ghettos. when other people say, hey, just emulate us, it doesn't work. they don't have the same pockets of poverty the US has. that's not US exceptionalism that's just a fact. there are swathes of the population politicians have chosen to forget about. gun control is not going to fix that. | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:35 Simberto wrote: So, what is your plan? You seem to agree that this is a problem? Yet you only argue for doing nothing as far as i can tell. That seems weird to me. (Also, the argument you are making right there is that america is exceptional (as in, different from all others)) in that we have 320 million people yes we are different. what are you trying to win? do you really think buybacks or a friendly 'hey neighbor give up your guns' is going to do the trick? i've made my stance clear though obviously you haven't checked previous pages or you would know what i would do if i had the power. yes, it is a problem that we have ghettos. what kind of question is that. what is weird about that | ||
|
thePunGun
598 Posts
It's an idiotic cycle that will never change, a whole society lying to themselves, coming up with stupid arguments like: "It's obviously a mental health problem and not a gun problem" Like seriously every other fucking country has mental health problems, but their crazies don't fucking end up shooting dozens of people like every other fucking week. At least be fucking honest about the real issue here!!! Alright now that I got that out of my system, I'm back to lurk mode. Enjoy the rest of your weekend guys!  | ||
|
Simberto
Germany11635 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:39 Alejandrisha wrote: in that we have 320 million people yes we are different. what are you trying to win? do you really think buybacks or a friendly 'hey neighbor give up your guns' is going to do the trick? i've made my stance clear though obviously you haven't checked previous pages or you would know what i would do if i had the power. yes, it is a problem that we have ghettos. what kind of question is that. what is weird about that Since i have talked to you for most of the last pages, i did read what you wrote. From what i can tell, your stance is mostly "That won't work, this won't work, that also won't work". With a single line of "we should do something about mental health" thrown in. This leads me to the conclusion that your plan is to not actually do anything, and continue to complain that things are bad. And yes, i do think that the plan i explained will work in the long term. Have gun regulations, stop treating gun ownership as a right, make sure that no additional guns get into the system except for people who actually need them, and then start slowly taking out the guns which exist in the system already, or at least make sure that they are registered in the same way as all other guns. I made it clear that this will take time. But it will eventually work. Because if you make sure that the amount of guns that enter the system is lower than the amount of guns that leave it, and keep that up for a prolonged period of time, the amount of guns in the system will decrease. That is simple basic maths. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:39 Alejandrisha wrote: in that we have 320 million people yes we are different. what are you trying to win? do you really think buybacks or a friendly 'hey neighbor give up your guns' is going to do the trick? i've made my stance clear though obviously you haven't checked previous pages or you would know what i would do if i had the power. yes, it is a problem that we have ghettos. what kind of question is that. what is weird about that Why do you keep bringing up our population? China and India do not seem to have problems with gun homicides and regulation like we do? And they are poorer countries, so there goes your "but we have ghettos" excuse as well. | ||
|
Simberto
Germany11635 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:50 Starlightsun wrote: Why do you keep bringing up our population? China and India do not seem to have problems with gun homicides and regulation like we do? And they are poorer countries, so there goes your "but we have ghettos" excuse as well. Also, population is really irrelevant. Maybe population/area is relevant, but simply being a big country with lots of people in it shouldn't make things substantially harder or easier. | ||
micronesia
United States24741 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:00 JimmiC wrote: That is a manufactured issue to stop your country from making progress. No other developed country is confused. It isn't a manufactured issue. It just happened in this thread again with nobody trying to make it happen. See below. On August 05 2019 01:54 ShambhalaWar wrote: That is the quintessential straw man argument, and has nothing to do with many other sensical solutions like background checks and limited magazine size that never got enacted. Money is the reason nothing has happened to make progress. People with power that built an industry (for profit) around violence, abuse that industry for max profit. The secondary (side) affect to guns is that people get killed who are around them. Just like smoking, people abused that industry and continued to. I don't think you understood my post. I wasn't defeating an argument for or against guns, straw or not. Your accusations don't make sense. I'll point out what caused my concern to resurface: Sermokala said: "One Assult rifles are already heavily regulated (until you look into the decade's old regulations where they're basically like cars)..." ShambhalaWar calls virtually all of the post, presumably including the above statement bullshit, and counters with: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/16/americans-age-to-buy-ar15-assault-rifle-mass-shootings" Neither of these sources are relevant to the point Sermokala made. I'm not exactly sure what ShambhalaWar's point was because it's not actually explained, despite all the rudeness, but clearly both parties are not communicating effectively at this point, and it's causing people go move further apart on the issue. We've seen this in the thread and elsewhere many times. When effective communication can not happen, the gun problem will continue. It may continue anyway, but it definitely will continue if we can't speak to the same facts. | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:49 Simberto wrote: Since i have talked to you for most of the last pages, i did read what you wrote. From what i can tell, your stance is mostly "That won't work, this won't work, that also won't work". With a single line of "we should do something about mental health" thrown in. This leads me to the conclusion that your plan is to not actually do anything, and continue to complain that things are bad. And yes, i do think that the plan i explained will work in the long term. Have gun regulations, stop treating gun ownership as a right, make sure that no additional guns get into the system except for people who actually need them, and then start slowly taking out the guns which exist in the system already, or at least make sure that they are registered in the same way as all other guns. I made it clear that this will take time. But it will eventually work. Because if you make sure that the amount of guns that enter the system is lower than the amount of guns that leave it, and keep that up for a prolonged period of time, the amount of guns in the system will decrease. That is simple basic maths. that's a great idea and i'm on board with 'common sense gun control' but how are you going to pass that without committing political suicide? i don't want everyone to have an assault rifle. i really do not. but, like i've said before, there is a large segment of the population in the US that would rather die than give up their guns. to a lot of people, guns are akin to freedom and harkon back to the revolution and a lot of folks won't let go of that. so as much as i agree with you in terms of regulating the possession of assault rifles, it is just not feasible. my stance that "That won't work, this won't work, that also won't work" stands. as much as i want to boo hoo about there being more restrictions on high ammunition magazines and assault rifles (what are you shooting a metal fucking deer?) you can't get anything done. you have to start somewhere but taking away all the ar-15's is not the first step. i agree there must be incrementalism in getting rid of all the guns in the street. but i really don't know how we can do this. my posts might sound hopeless because i do feel hopeless and i don't see a real way we can get out of this crisis. it is really sad and there doesn't seem to be an easy solution. what i'm saying is strictly gun control is not the clear-cut solution. | ||
|
Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:31 Alejandrisha wrote: no it's not exceptionalism. it's that we have 200 million+ guns on the street already and 320 million people. don't pretend that we can emulate nordic countries with less than 10 million or canada with 30 million people. you are trying to shove a square into a circle Why don't you try simulating Europe, China or India? Also it is not impossible to get rid of guns, look at Australia and how they did it. | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 02:50 Starlightsun wrote: Why do you keep bringing up our population? China and India do not seem to have problems with gun homicides and regulation like we do? And they are poorer countries, so there goes your "but we have ghettos" excuse as well. i don't know about the poverty-driven crime in china the same way you don't. population is not the best example but it's really the disparity between obscene wealth and obscene poverty. poverty leads to crime, not guns. how much do we really know about crime stats in india and china? isn't a 'chinese newspaper' like a term to call propaganda? how do you know that they aren't shooting the shit out of each other? | ||
|
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On August 05 2019 03:16 Neneu wrote: Why don't you try simulating Europe, China or India? Also it is not impossible to get rid of guns, look at Australia and how they did it. as i've said before, try doing the australian model and just take peoples' guns. see how that works. i would love to see this | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 05 2019 03:08 Alejandrisha wrote: i don't want everyone to have an assault rifle. i really do not. but, like i've said before, there is a large segment of the population in the US that would rather die than give up their guns. to a lot of people, guns are akin to freedom and harkon back to the revolution and a lot of folks won't let go of that. There is not a "large segment of the population" that would rather die than not own guns. They would be upset and then move on with their lives. | ||
| ||
