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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 23 2011 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Tell me something...
Do you honestly believe that rehabilitation for this maniac is possible?
What's the point of getting him into "forvaring" or whatever.... just kill this sad fuck and be on with curing problems of the world.
anybody capable of murdering 92 people in cold blood, be proud of it like this fucking nutcase, isn't gonna be rehabilitated anytime soon, I will tell you that.
I guess we shouldn't have executed Adolf Hitler either, if we ever had the chance to then?
He only murdered directly/indirectly 6million+ people, and he felt GOOD about it, and he believed stoicly and forcefuly on this beliefs and actions, just like this massmurderer from Norway.
Sadly, Hitler comitted suicide before we could get to him, but you would seriously consider letting a man like Hitler alive, just because it's "wrong" to kill other human beings, regardless of how atrociously outrageous and lunatic their actions may be ?
hmm..
Thank you for proving Godwin's Law...
If you cannot grasp the fact that we cannot change our entire judicial system in order to accommodate one man, no matter how heinous the crime he committed was, then I am not sure how any argument will ever change your mind. As such, I capitulate, and hope otheres will not be as ignorant.
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On July 23 2011 23:57 whirlpool wrote:
i read somewhere hes playing some games like WoW and Modern Warfare , the last one could be affect him while bursting bullets without fear , imo
lol
User was warned for this post
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On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:54 edahl wrote:On July 23 2011 23:33 Hallayz wrote:I think what the poster meant was - you guys say you don't want life sentences or the death penalty. But you are saying the guy is going to get forvaring anyway. So basically you're saying you do want a life sentence for him but you just don't want to call it a life sentence, you just call it forvaring instead.
Anyway, this is an emotional time, especially for Norwegians, so it's understandable why some would use national pride in their own country's laws as a form of comfort, yet end up being inconsistent. Just like how I was inconsistent in saying I wouldn't post anymore. OK bedtime. We do not wish to change our laws for this one man. We do not belive in the death penalty and this person will have his punishment by being reminded every single day for the rest of his life that all his deluded efforts didnt achieve anything except unite a nation in grief over this tragedy. I also believe that when the door of that prison cell closes, when the media circus is over and he is left to his own thoughts and 21 years to think about what he has done, seeing what he did to those kids over and over in his mind, he will be in a hell much worse than what he would be given from the mercy of a death penalty. Spot on. I do not want neither life sentence nor death sentence for anyone. Prison in Norway serves the purpose of rehabilitation. Some people are a danger to society, and in the event that prison cannot change that forvaring (custody in English) is designed to do keep those people away. It is not something I would want for anyone as much as a last line of defense against dangerous human beings; you simply cannot turn your back to a killer with a knife. The point is not to punish: he knew what he did and he knew what awaits him; nothing can ever undo what has been done. Read my post please. Rehabilitation for this maniac WILL not work, ever. So why should the government of Norway, pay this man's bill of eating, sleeping and going about his business for the next 50+ years? Kill him, and you solve the problem. No money have to be paid afterwards, no expensive no-good books on him have to be written and milked for money, no sympatiseres for what he did will exist.
Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong?
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On July 23 2011 23:29 gravethrasher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 22:57 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 22:42 gravethrasher wrote:
I wrote a post on this subject on exactly this sort of episode last week in a thread about black metal and Varg Vikernes, and and there is a strong connection there. Its very easy to label this guy a monster, or insane, and there are people out there who is like that, but there truth might be awhole lot more frightning, that this guy is just human. My guess he does not have kids, and has a sterile christian lifestyle without drugs and parties, sex, disconnected from people, fiercly independant growing his own food and being self reliant, which leaves him totally commited to what he does mainly computer games and politics.His unaffected by materialism, jobs, and daily concerns of most people. He got to a point where he found out what needed to be done according to his own belief system, and did it, with with no regards to his own safety and no emotional breaks stopping him. Norway's one of the most difficult contries to integrate in, where people are very distant and dont really wanna mingle with strangers much unless they are drunk as norways got the worst drinking culture in the world. U will get no sympathy for ur problems here, as its got such a strong economy, and low crime and violence, theres nothing obvious to complain about and problems very subtle. Its a castrated society which resembles the 1984 existance alot more then other places and a soulless existance (and western conservative spirituality is a poor source of spirituality). People dont walk up to other people to talk to them here, or your seen as a nutjob. Shy people in norway gets isolated away, I dont expect him to have been violently abused, even though that might have happened, there is a bigger probability that his just been chipped and chiseled for a long time, left on his own to the point of not caring about or rather being totally neutral towards people sort of like a machine, forced into a form of political cannibalism.
Increasing punishment and arming police only makes things worse. If this guy knew he was facing exectution or torture, the situation could of been alot worse. And suspecting and stigmatising people also makes things worse and theres no point attack the things thats great with Norway. The problem lies in society in itself in all of us, i really dont see a way out personally. Im not removing responsibility in his actions btw, just explaining what may have shaped the framework for his mindset You are native norwegian or just living there? Because you are one of the most realistic ppl there i´ve seen now. Beside of the "arming police makes thinks worse". Problem is that everyone on norway is able to own weapons, any kind of weapons but the police is not trustfull enough for beeing armed? Isn´t that kinda shizo? Even if the island would have been full of police they wouldn´t have been able to protect the kids from what happend, so they are kinda useless and just are used to write your fines? Appreciate it, its nice not to just get flak for a change, and yeah Ive lived here all my life. Police get to use weapons only when its needed, and dont walk around armed. Usually they have special SWAT teams when they need to do drug bust and that sort of thing. I dont have a problem with unarmed police mostly because im way more scared of their dogs. We dont have the same level of crime as in other contries
I lived in Norway for more then 12 years and i felt not really good with the unaimed police.
I lived in Hommersaak with just arround 6k ppl and we had 4 ppl shot in this less then 5 years beside of the big run on Norges Bank in Stavanger where they closes the entrance of the policestation with a explosion and shot one of my neighbours, a unarmed policeofficer.
So the crimelvlis not really less, it´s not NY City thats correct but with the amount of hard alcohol ppl drink on the weekends the weapons are used really easy and not only for hunting animals.
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On July 24 2011 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional? Who convinced you of that? How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him? I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will. Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not? Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime.
Who are YOU to judge what is fair and whats not?
You cant make an exception for one maniac, that would go against everything the Norwegian justice system stands for. Sure, he deserves to be raped through the eyesocket 10 hours a day but that still does not mean that that is a just verdict.
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Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong?
Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life.
It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live.
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On July 23 2011 23:53 fidelity wrote:
The scary thing is a lot of people agree with his opinions, even though they would never resort to violence. All over europe people with the same opinions is now sitting in the parliaments...
O wait, is it now forbidden to be anti-massive immigration since a lunatic who happened to be anti-immigration shot people at a political meeting ?
You can't deny the link between massive immigration, islamic terrorism/fundamentalism and the rise of the extreme far-right across Europe.
It's not the nationalists who are in power in Europe so they're not responsible of this mess.
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Wow. Of all countries in the world, I never expected this kind of tragedy to happen in norway. Such a peaceful country. 
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On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live.
do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres?
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After the destruction of the bomb and the wake of the massacre, its clear that the real target was the kids, I can only speculate but it seems that he wanted to remove the AUF's future by killing off all of the kids that were interested in politics.
As for the person that called himself in its possible that he may have been coereced into thinking it was an assasination plot for the prime minister and former prime ministers, after hearing news that it was kids.
To the people that say oh why didnt they overpower him its very possible that the initial period when he called people over then opened fire that some of the kids tried to overpower him but were killed straight away.
The things that need to be looked at are, how did he manage to get a police id, uniform etc and try to stop these things from happening again, finally why did it take so long to get armed police on that island.
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On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live.
Woops. guess this man wasnt guilty, we should let him go now.. oh wait we killed him 10 years ago. too bad.
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do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres?
No, I even said it doesn't.
Woops. guess this man wasnt guilty, we should let him go now.. oh wait we killed him 10 years ago. too bad.
It is a concern.
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On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live.
And so no one will do this anymore ???
Its all about preventing those aktions not to show others that this is wrong ... everyone knows this is wrong and still some of them do something like this.
If you know this will be the last thing you will do and still decide to do so, wont he be much encouraged to do it with maximum brutality (i dont say it wont happen either)
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On July 24 2011 00:07 Ilvy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:29 gravethrasher wrote:On July 23 2011 22:57 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 22:42 gravethrasher wrote:
I wrote a post on this subject on exactly this sort of episode last week in a thread about black metal and Varg Vikernes, and and there is a strong connection there. Its very easy to label this guy a monster, or insane, and there are people out there who is like that, but there truth might be awhole lot more frightning, that this guy is just human. My guess he does not have kids, and has a sterile christian lifestyle without drugs and parties, sex, disconnected from people, fiercly independant growing his own food and being self reliant, which leaves him totally commited to what he does mainly computer games and politics.His unaffected by materialism, jobs, and daily concerns of most people. He got to a point where he found out what needed to be done according to his own belief system, and did it, with with no regards to his own safety and no emotional breaks stopping him. Norway's one of the most difficult contries to integrate in, where people are very distant and dont really wanna mingle with strangers much unless they are drunk as norways got the worst drinking culture in the world. U will get no sympathy for ur problems here, as its got such a strong economy, and low crime and violence, theres nothing obvious to complain about and problems very subtle. Its a castrated society which resembles the 1984 existance alot more then other places and a soulless existance (and western conservative spirituality is a poor source of spirituality). People dont walk up to other people to talk to them here, or your seen as a nutjob. Shy people in norway gets isolated away, I dont expect him to have been violently abused, even though that might have happened, there is a bigger probability that his just been chipped and chiseled for a long time, left on his own to the point of not caring about or rather being totally neutral towards people sort of like a machine, forced into a form of political cannibalism.
Increasing punishment and arming police only makes things worse. If this guy knew he was facing exectution or torture, the situation could of been alot worse. And suspecting and stigmatising people also makes things worse and theres no point attack the things thats great with Norway. The problem lies in society in itself in all of us, i really dont see a way out personally. Im not removing responsibility in his actions btw, just explaining what may have shaped the framework for his mindset You are native norwegian or just living there? Because you are one of the most realistic ppl there i´ve seen now. Beside of the "arming police makes thinks worse". Problem is that everyone on norway is able to own weapons, any kind of weapons but the police is not trustfull enough for beeing armed? Isn´t that kinda shizo? Even if the island would have been full of police they wouldn´t have been able to protect the kids from what happend, so they are kinda useless and just are used to write your fines? Appreciate it, its nice not to just get flak for a change, and yeah Ive lived here all my life. Police get to use weapons only when its needed, and dont walk around armed. Usually they have special SWAT teams when they need to do drug bust and that sort of thing. I dont have a problem with unarmed police mostly because im way more scared of their dogs. We dont have the same level of crime as in other contries I lived in Norway for more then 12 years and i felt not really good with the unaimed police. I lived in Hommersaak with just arround 6k ppl and we had 4 ppl shot in this less then 5 years beside of the big run on Norges Bank in Stavanger where they closes the entrance of the policestation with a explosion and shot one of my neighbours, a unarmed policeofficer. So the crimelvlis not really less, it´s not NY City thats correct but with the amount of hard alcohol ppl drink on the weekends the weapons are used really easy and not only for hunting animals.
Honestly, people need to differentiate between what it means to have unarmed police and police without acess to guns. In Norway, the normal cop in the street does not have a gun on his person, however, if a situation arises, every cop car has guns in a locked box in the boot of the car. All they need to get access to these weapons is a judge's permission, which is only a phonecall/radio communication away.
In the bigger picture, one fact still remains. If you arm the police, the criminals will also arm themselves, and the collateral damage will just increase.
That being said, can someone PLEASE explain to me how having armed police officers in the street on any day of the week would have prevented this from happening?
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On July 24 2011 00:05 Dr_Jones wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Tell me something...
Do you honestly believe that rehabilitation for this maniac is possible?
What's the point of getting him into "forvaring" or whatever.... just kill this sad fuck and be on with curing problems of the world.
anybody capable of murdering 92 people in cold blood, be proud of it like this fucking nutcase, isn't gonna be rehabilitated anytime soon, I will tell you that.
I guess we shouldn't have executed Adolf Hitler either, if we ever had the chance to then?
He only murdered directly/indirectly 6million+ people, and he felt GOOD about it, and he believed stoicly and forcefuly on this beliefs and actions, just like this massmurderer from Norway.
Sadly, Hitler comitted suicide before we could get to him, but you would seriously consider letting a man like Hitler alive, just because it's "wrong" to kill other human beings, regardless of how atrociously outrageous and lunatic their actions may be ?
hmm.. Thank you for proving Godwin's Law... If you cannot grasp the fact that we cannot change our entire judicial system in order to accommodate one man, no matter how heinous the crime he committed was, then I am not sure how any argument will ever change your mind. As such, I capitulate, and hope otheres will not be as ignorant.
Explain to me why special cases of brutal crimes cannot justify a death penalty, even for a minority of incidents. Is it because the principal of taking another life is wrong? We do that anyway, by giving life sentences in prison, whichis just as good as rotting away, it's actually worse than a death sentence but more expensive. I'm just saying that the possibility of changing the judicial system for include death penalty for special cases, if definitely possible, if it's instated by law and voted by the democracy.
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On July 24 2011 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional? Who convinced you of that? How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him? I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will. Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not? Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime.
So you kill him, and then what..? Yeah, that's what I thought, nothing will change if you kill him. Let's all stop taking decision when we're our emotional side is getting too high.
I do not agree with what he did, there is no way all these innocent people should die because one man was angry with how the country was run. I cannot believe that we, human beings, never learn from our mistake in the past and always need to shoot people to get out our message.
I do not have a solution regarding this situation, I am not God and cannot judge what is right or wrong, but I do not that killing a man is not right, and will not change the situation. If it would of, world would be in peace.
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On July 24 2011 00:10 deek wrote:The things that need to be looked at are, how did he manage to get a police id, uniform etc and try to stop these things from happening again, finally why did it take so long to get armed police on that island.
The police ID was fake, and the uniform was only a sweater with a police logo on (which looks really close to what police uses).
From what I've read they only used 30 min before armed police arrived, however it took over an hour (after arrival) before they felt the area was safe (excluding the bomb threat), this is mostly due to the fact that many witnesses claims there were more than 1 shooter. which they of course had to take very seriously.
Also the state of this thread is really sad atm. everyone discussing their personal opinons about death sentence, that is very little related to this thread, make another thread if you want to discuss that.
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If you kill him, you're just giving in to the radical, ideological change he wants in Norway. Time and resources aren't worth nearly as much as pride.
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On July 24 2011 00:11 Dr_Jones wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:07 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 23:29 gravethrasher wrote:On July 23 2011 22:57 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 22:42 gravethrasher wrote:
I wrote a post on this subject on exactly this sort of episode last week in a thread about black metal and Varg Vikernes, and and there is a strong connection there. Its very easy to label this guy a monster, or insane, and there are people out there who is like that, but there truth might be awhole lot more frightning, that this guy is just human. My guess he does not have kids, and has a sterile christian lifestyle without drugs and parties, sex, disconnected from people, fiercly independant growing his own food and being self reliant, which leaves him totally commited to what he does mainly computer games and politics.His unaffected by materialism, jobs, and daily concerns of most people. He got to a point where he found out what needed to be done according to his own belief system, and did it, with with no regards to his own safety and no emotional breaks stopping him. Norway's one of the most difficult contries to integrate in, where people are very distant and dont really wanna mingle with strangers much unless they are drunk as norways got the worst drinking culture in the world. U will get no sympathy for ur problems here, as its got such a strong economy, and low crime and violence, theres nothing obvious to complain about and problems very subtle. Its a castrated society which resembles the 1984 existance alot more then other places and a soulless existance (and western conservative spirituality is a poor source of spirituality). People dont walk up to other people to talk to them here, or your seen as a nutjob. Shy people in norway gets isolated away, I dont expect him to have been violently abused, even though that might have happened, there is a bigger probability that his just been chipped and chiseled for a long time, left on his own to the point of not caring about or rather being totally neutral towards people sort of like a machine, forced into a form of political cannibalism.
Increasing punishment and arming police only makes things worse. If this guy knew he was facing exectution or torture, the situation could of been alot worse. And suspecting and stigmatising people also makes things worse and theres no point attack the things thats great with Norway. The problem lies in society in itself in all of us, i really dont see a way out personally. Im not removing responsibility in his actions btw, just explaining what may have shaped the framework for his mindset You are native norwegian or just living there? Because you are one of the most realistic ppl there i´ve seen now. Beside of the "arming police makes thinks worse". Problem is that everyone on norway is able to own weapons, any kind of weapons but the police is not trustfull enough for beeing armed? Isn´t that kinda shizo? Even if the island would have been full of police they wouldn´t have been able to protect the kids from what happend, so they are kinda useless and just are used to write your fines? Appreciate it, its nice not to just get flak for a change, and yeah Ive lived here all my life. Police get to use weapons only when its needed, and dont walk around armed. Usually they have special SWAT teams when they need to do drug bust and that sort of thing. I dont have a problem with unarmed police mostly because im way more scared of their dogs. We dont have the same level of crime as in other contries I lived in Norway for more then 12 years and i felt not really good with the unaimed police. I lived in Hommersaak with just arround 6k ppl and we had 4 ppl shot in this less then 5 years beside of the big run on Norges Bank in Stavanger where they closes the entrance of the policestation with a explosion and shot one of my neighbours, a unarmed policeofficer. So the crimelvlis not really less, it´s not NY City thats correct but with the amount of hard alcohol ppl drink on the weekends the weapons are used really easy and not only for hunting animals. Honestly, people need to differentiate between what it means to have unarmed police and police without acess to guns. In Norway, the normal cop in the street does not have a gun on his person, however, if a situation arises, every cop car has guns in a locked box in the boot of the car. All they need to get access to these weapons is a judge's permission, which is only a phonecall/radio communication away. In the bigger picture, one fact still remains. If you arm the police, the criminals will also arm themselves, and the collateral damage will just increase.
Criminals will arm themselves regardless. Also, you're telling me a cop needs to be granted permission by a judge every time he uses his weapon? I must have misconstrued something in your post...that can't be right.
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