|
Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:09 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres? Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will. I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be.
Suggestion: Death row makes would be criminals scared and deters them from committing crimes.
Proof: Criminals on death row are afraid of dying.
Problem: They ended up on death row.
Conclusion: You're not very good at this.
|
Heard from tinfoil hatters:
Whole incident was a false-flag operation.
User was warned for this post
|
On July 24 2011 00:17 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 14:33 Fionn wrote:A cell in Halden Prison, Norway's newest high security prison (Trent Isaksen/Statsbygg) ![[image loading]](http://prisonlaw.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/celle_600_0.jpg) You have got to be kidding me... No doubt he'll spend the next 21 years thinking he's a misunderstood hero and writing memoirs of the shooting at that very desk. I don't buy into the Norweigen imprisonment system that stresses rehabilitation. If you're crazy enough to shoot dozens of children as they beg for their life, you think he's going to change his views and magically become a reasonable person? Of course not. He's thanking the stars that he lives in a country where he can watch TV, read books, and get decent food on Norweigen citizens' dime. All while living in a room nicer than most are accustomed to. There are some who have lost their right to live on this planet., and this man is one of them. I think Timothy McVeigh's punishment was perfectly suitable and should be considered. Also, I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but the wikipedia article says it took police over two hours to respond on the island... Is this true??
The prison system in the nordic countrys are based on rehabilitation if possible and detention, not revenge (like in some states in the us). This guy will spend rest of his life under detention, someone telling him when to sleep and when to wake up, when to shower, when to watch tv or whatever. Truth is that harder living enviorments in prisons leads to a higher chance of ex convicts relapsing. Even if his crimes are horrific and some might say he deserves to die (even a part of me do), u cant change the system for one guy.
|
On July 24 2011 00:23 Andymoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:17 larssto wrote:
There is only one form of punishment that is fitting for this guy, outisde of what the judicial system come up with. He should be made to face, one-on-one, all the relatives and friends of the people he murdered. 1 hours minimum, and people should be encouraged to bring photos and films of his victims. This sicko needs to realize that he has destroyed 92 (and counting) lives and futures. Once he realizes that I'd be surprised if he can live with himself. ^^^^^^^^ Everything about this.
I'd guess he is beyond reason and empathy. He knew what he was doing, he planned it meticulously. He clearly doesn't know love and he will never understand it so all this will do is show him the success of his master plan. He would sit there feeling like a god, relishing in how the distraught the families are and at how much of a difference he has made.
|
On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:09 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres? Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will. I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be.
How did it stop them if they are already on deathrow? There's been many studies about the whether or not death penalties works as deterrent. Maybe you should go and look them up.
|
On July 24 2011 00:18 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:16 DoXa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. this might work on some communities, but certainly not in todays europe Yeah in todays Europe they give the guy the VIP suite. Such heroes.
No but todays Europe has a legal system that is not driven by revenge but by protecting society. Most of us are very attentive to the difference between wanting someone dead, and actually murdering them. And most are not comfortable with taking part in collective murder of a person no matter what he did. Although on the larger scale the issue of the death penalty eventually comes down to for me atleast the problem of people being convicted innocently.
I rather pay to have the worst criminals in history locked up for all eternity than to lower myself to a murderer myself or to live in a society where revenge drives justice.
|
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080652
+ Show Spoiler +Thorbjørn (22): - we were 30-40 when he started shooting, when he was finished 5-6 stood left(alive).
Thorbjørn tells that Anders Breiveid first shooted, then told people it was safe, before he started shooting again
- it is safe to come out. You will be saved, I am police.
That was what Anders Behring Breivik yeller after first firing several shots. Thorbjørn were among them that approached the fake police officer.
We were a gang of 30-40 when he started to shoot. When he was done 5-6 stood left (alive).
He also tells he saw a shoot hit the stonewall close to him, before he manged to escape. They hid in a cave by the water.
-There was hard damaged people around us, but we didn't dare to leave the cave out of fear to be discovered, says Vereide clearly affected by what happened.
During the interview the 22 year is shacking, has a shakky voice and with tears in his eyes. Still he wants to tell his story.
-I have never lost someone I know before. Then it's quite dramatic to lose 85 good friends, he adds.
He draws horrible images of the killer who was very calm, while he shot several victims twice, to make sure they are dead.
-It looked like he didnt care about the situation, says Vereide
Vestlendingen(norwegian from vest-Norway) told he considered swimming, but didn't want to leave his friend, who had panic.
Eventually a boat arrived, but the 22 year old had a hard time trusting people, after being shot at by a fake officer.
-First I thought I had to go trough the boat owner stuff.
Now he has friends he hope to se, many he still has not seen, that is waiting for.
-It is horrible, I have talked with friends at the hotel which says they saw their best friend being shot in the head right in front of them.
Police increased the death numbers to 85 Saturday
32 year old Ander Behring Breivik is suspected for both Utøya shooting & the bomb at the goverment in Oslo
More information is expected, at press brief at 18:00 cest. Apparently the police is looking for someone in downtown Oslo.
Can mods please start dealing with all the off-topic?
|
On July 24 2011 00:25 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:09 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres? Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will. I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be. Suggestion: Death row makes would be criminals scared and deters them from committing crimes. Proof: Criminals on death row are afraid of dying. Problem: They ended up on death row. Conclusion: You're not very good at this.
So we shouldn't punish anybody for their crimes then? Since we can magically prevent every crime from happening, let's not have harsh punishments to go with deeper knowledge of societal problems.
Having pre-emptive stuff to people ending up on death row is good, it's needed, but so is death row, for those who are out of reach.
|
On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest.
Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah?
|
On July 24 2011 00:29 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:18 DannyJ wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 DoXa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. this might work on some communities, but certainly not in todays europe Yeah in todays Europe they give the guy the VIP suite. Such heroes. No but todays Europe has a legal system that is not driven by revenge but by protecting society. Most of us are very attentive to the difference between wanting someone dead, and actually murdering them. And most are not comfortable with taking part in collective murder of a person no matter what he did. Although on the larger scale the issue of the death penalty eventually comes down to for me atleast the problem of people being convicted innocently. I rather pay to have the worst criminals in history locked up for all eternity than to lower myself to a murderer myself or to live in a society where revenge drives justice.
Also important is that your tax money will go to killing people if the death penalty exists in your country. So you are pretty much second handedly killing convicts.
|
I think this is not the right time for anyone to criticize the norwegian laws. This is actually was what he wanted. If it's correct that's he's an right-wing extremist he is FOR longer sentences, FOR non-human conditions for the prisoners and perhaps even for death penalty. The youths who were killed at Utøya fought for the right for all human beings to have good living conditions, even for those who have broken laws. If we changed the laws to punish this one man, he would have won, and we would go against the thoughts and wishes for those who were killed at Utøya. I hope this thread would rather be a place were people could share their stories, thoughts and their compassion for those involveds relatives, and not a place where you bash on Norwegian laws.
|
On July 24 2011 00:29 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:18 DannyJ wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 DoXa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. this might work on some communities, but certainly not in todays europe Yeah in todays Europe they give the guy the VIP suite. Such heroes. No but todays Europe has a legal system that is not driven by revenge but by protecting society. Most of us are very attentive to the difference between wanting someone dead, and actually murdering them. And most are not comfortable with taking part in collective murder of a person no matter what he did. Although on the larger scale the issue of the death penalty eventually comes down to for me atleast the problem of people being convicted innocently. I rather pay to have the worst criminals in history locked up for all eternity than to lower myself to a murderer myself or to live in a society where revenge drives justice.
death penalty is even more expensive than lifelong prison.
according to a spiegel article (big german magazine) one execution in the US costs about 300 million Dollars.
|
On July 24 2011 00:14 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:11 Dr_Jones wrote:On July 24 2011 00:07 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 23:29 gravethrasher wrote:On July 23 2011 22:57 Ilvy wrote:On July 23 2011 22:42 gravethrasher wrote:
I wrote a post on this subject on exactly this sort of episode last week in a thread about black metal and Varg Vikernes, and and there is a strong connection there. Its very easy to label this guy a monster, or insane, and there are people out there who is like that, but there truth might be awhole lot more frightning, that this guy is just human. My guess he does not have kids, and has a sterile christian lifestyle without drugs and parties, sex, disconnected from people, fiercly independant growing his own food and being self reliant, which leaves him totally commited to what he does mainly computer games and politics.His unaffected by materialism, jobs, and daily concerns of most people. He got to a point where he found out what needed to be done according to his own belief system, and did it, with with no regards to his own safety and no emotional breaks stopping him. Norway's one of the most difficult contries to integrate in, where people are very distant and dont really wanna mingle with strangers much unless they are drunk as norways got the worst drinking culture in the world. U will get no sympathy for ur problems here, as its got such a strong economy, and low crime and violence, theres nothing obvious to complain about and problems very subtle. Its a castrated society which resembles the 1984 existance alot more then other places and a soulless existance (and western conservative spirituality is a poor source of spirituality). People dont walk up to other people to talk to them here, or your seen as a nutjob. Shy people in norway gets isolated away, I dont expect him to have been violently abused, even though that might have happened, there is a bigger probability that his just been chipped and chiseled for a long time, left on his own to the point of not caring about or rather being totally neutral towards people sort of like a machine, forced into a form of political cannibalism.
Increasing punishment and arming police only makes things worse. If this guy knew he was facing exectution or torture, the situation could of been alot worse. And suspecting and stigmatising people also makes things worse and theres no point attack the things thats great with Norway. The problem lies in society in itself in all of us, i really dont see a way out personally. Im not removing responsibility in his actions btw, just explaining what may have shaped the framework for his mindset You are native norwegian or just living there? Because you are one of the most realistic ppl there i´ve seen now. Beside of the "arming police makes thinks worse". Problem is that everyone on norway is able to own weapons, any kind of weapons but the police is not trustfull enough for beeing armed? Isn´t that kinda shizo? Even if the island would have been full of police they wouldn´t have been able to protect the kids from what happend, so they are kinda useless and just are used to write your fines? Appreciate it, its nice not to just get flak for a change, and yeah Ive lived here all my life. Police get to use weapons only when its needed, and dont walk around armed. Usually they have special SWAT teams when they need to do drug bust and that sort of thing. I dont have a problem with unarmed police mostly because im way more scared of their dogs. We dont have the same level of crime as in other contries I lived in Norway for more then 12 years and i felt not really good with the unaimed police. I lived in Hommersaak with just arround 6k ppl and we had 4 ppl shot in this less then 5 years beside of the big run on Norges Bank in Stavanger where they closes the entrance of the policestation with a explosion and shot one of my neighbours, a unarmed policeofficer. So the crimelvlis not really less, it´s not NY City thats correct but with the amount of hard alcohol ppl drink on the weekends the weapons are used really easy and not only for hunting animals. Honestly, people need to differentiate between what it means to have unarmed police and police without acess to guns. In Norway, the normal cop in the street does not have a gun on his person, however, if a situation arises, every cop car has guns in a locked box in the boot of the car. All they need to get access to these weapons is a judge's permission, which is only a phonecall/radio communication away. In the bigger picture, one fact still remains. If you arm the police, the criminals will also arm themselves, and the collateral damage will just increase. Criminals will arm themselves regardless. Also, you're telling me a cop needs to be granted permission by a judge every time he uses his weapon? I must have misconstrued something in your post...that can't be right.
As I said, it's a radio communication away, with a police judicator capable of giving permission with the extended authority of a judge. It's purely byrocratic, but it doesn't slow down anything. It's not like the cop has to go into a courtroom and defend his case, then wait for a verdict, then get the permission, then return to the scene, then unlock his gun, then use it in whatever way possible.
Really, is this an issue? Norway is one of the most peaceful countries in the world, with very few killings, gun-related accidents, or police killings.. we MIGHT be on to something, or we might be lucky. Or it's a combination of the two. In either case, I feel this has derailed the topic too much, and I will no longer adress any post regarding our judicial system, our police force, or our stand on life sentences/capital punishment. Accept our differences, and move on.
|
On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah?
Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?)
User was warned for this post
|
On July 24 2011 00:26 ZeGzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:17 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On July 23 2011 14:33 Fionn wrote:A cell in Halden Prison, Norway's newest high security prison (Trent Isaksen/Statsbygg) You have got to be kidding me... No doubt he'll spend the next 21 years thinking he's a misunderstood hero and writing memoirs of the shooting at that very desk. I don't buy into the Norweigen imprisonment system that stresses rehabilitation. If you're crazy enough to shoot dozens of children as they beg for their life, you think he's going to change his views and magically become a reasonable person? Of course not. He's thanking the stars that he lives in a country where he can watch TV, read books, and get decent food on Norweigen citizens' dime. All while living in a room nicer than most are accustomed to. There are some who have lost their right to live on this planet., and this man is one of them. I think Timothy McVeigh's punishment was perfectly suitable and should be considered. Also, I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but the wikipedia article says it took police over two hours to respond on the island... Is this true?? The prison system in the nordic countrys are based on rehabilitation if possible and detention, not revenge (like in some states in the us). This guy will spend rest of his life under detention, someone telling him when to sleep and when to wake up, when to shower, when to watch tv or whatever. Truth is that harder living enviorments in prisons leads to a higher chance of ex convicts relapsing. Even if his crimes are horrific and some might say he deserves to die (even a part of me do), u cant change the system for one guy.
I'd rather make an exception for terribly heinous crimes than indirectly pay for this man's cable TV bill and sandwiches while he sleeps on IKEA furniture.
|
On July 24 2011 00:25 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:21 Longshank wrote:On July 24 2011 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional? Who convinced you of that? How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him? I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will. Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not? Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime. Death penalty does not exist in Norway and hopefully never will. Why speak of killing him when that's not even an option? Also I'd love to see your credentials for telling us rehabilitation WILL not work on this person, ever. The collegial penal system experts in Sweden and Norway(and probably Denmark aswell) are of a different oppinion, and if he's still a danger to the society after 21 years he will remain locked up. I'm not saying rehabilitation will never work, but in case of this maniac, I don't think it will. Do you have any cases as severe as this, where the criminal just suddently from a blue sky, turned 180 degreees, and now all of the sudden was rehabilitated?
Ok, I'm not going to discuss anything with you since you're set on not understanding a thing. We're talking about rehabilitation as a progress over the course of 21 years, that I have to clarify that to you makes this a waste of time. Good day..
|
On July 24 2011 00:30 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:25 HellRoxYa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:09 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres? Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will. I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be. Suggestion: Death row makes would be criminals scared and deters them from committing crimes. Proof: Criminals on death row are afraid of dying. Problem: They ended up on death row. Conclusion: You're not very good at this. So we shouldn't punish anybody for their crimes then? Since we can magically prevent every crime from happening, let's not have harsh punishments to go with deeper knowledge of societal problems. Having pre-emptive stuff to people ending up on death row is good, it's needed, but so is death row, for those who are out of reach.
Quite obviously it isn't, since neither your nor my country actually shares your opinion nor are they worse off because of it. I'm just trying to make you see that you suck hard at arguing. Even your comeback is terrible.
|
MasterFischer u are just wrong. Name me a good(!) reason why we should use the death penalty on this person?
Killing people who killed other people shows u what? If anything, that killing to some extent is okey. It isnt.
|
On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest.
I'm not quite sure if my comment can be considered as "a shitting on USA contest". To my knowledge a huge majority of US citizens approve the death sentence. And when I come for example to this website every single topic which involves a cruel, disgusting, despicable guy who did some really bad things there are tons of Americans yelling in graphic language how the guy should be killed.
The guy my comment was addressed to shared the same opinion and claimed every society on the planet wants the bad guy to be killed by the government. I simply declined.
|
On July 24 2011 00:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah? Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?)
Maybe if you read his post properly you would see that he did not base a whole country on the opinions of a couple, his post was based on the NA posters on this thread, yeah?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
