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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
TLADT24920 Posts
MY heart goes out to the Norwegian people who lost loved ones 
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The human race needs to move past revenge: Let's evolve.
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Finnish media is already pulling the video game card telling that both of the finnish school shooters and this guy played violent video games in one form or another... makes me sick to the stomach.
Also NOW suddenly there are talks again that gun laws should be more strict. It was the same thing after the school shootings but after a month had passed they were forgotten and no one talked about them. Sad and funny at the same time
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On July 24 2011 00:36 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:25 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:21 Longshank wrote:On July 24 2011 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional? Who convinced you of that? How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him? I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will. Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not? Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime. Death penalty does not exist in Norway and hopefully never will. Why speak of killing him when that's not even an option? Also I'd love to see your credentials for telling us rehabilitation WILL not work on this person, ever. The collegial penal system experts in Sweden and Norway(and probably Denmark aswell) are of a different oppinion, and if he's still a danger to the society after 21 years he will remain locked up. I'm not saying rehabilitation will never work, but in case of this maniac, I don't think it will. Do you have any cases as severe as this, where the criminal just suddently from a blue sky, turned 180 degreees, and now all of the sudden was rehabilitated? Ok, I'm not going to discuss anything with you since you're set on not understanding a thing. We're talking about rehabilitation as a progress over the course of 21 years, that I have to clarify that to you makes this a waste of time. Good day..
And I'm telling you, I strongly doubt that rehabilitation will work for a man like this, over a course of 21 years, or more. IT's alot of money and time/energy to spend on something that you have no gaurentee of succeeding at, especially with this man, as he is super insane.
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On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:
Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will.
I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be.
There is no reason to think that harsher punishments deters crime in any significant way - it's consistency (the chance of getting caught) which impacts crime rates. Norway has some of the lowest crime-rates and rates of repeat offenders in the world, which means the system works, even though it obviously isn't perfect. Even with this massacre, which killed far more people in a single day than we normally see in a full year, our murders per capita for 2011 will be below the vast majority of western first-world nations.
Because of this, my point of view can be nothing other than this; if our penal system requires us to ignore the primal, visceral reaction that is a need for vengeance that a tragedy like this can cause, in order to see justice served on our terms, the ones that provide us with a society in which most people feel safe, and aspires to extend this safety to as many citizens as possible, then it is not only my priviledge, but rather my duty, to perpetuate said system and make every effort to see that this case does not change the way we handle crime and criminals in this country, else we risk making things worse for everyone. When there is no reason whatsoever to think that harsher punishments, or being 'tough on crime' will improve our crime-rates, and in fact there seems to be a correlation between places that have harsh and unforgiving penal systems and high crime-rates (which obviously does not mean that one causes the other, merely that there's no indication that being tough on crime actually works), any change to our own system seems wildly reactionary and based entirely on emotional responses.
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On July 24 2011 00:38 Otori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:34 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah? Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?) Maybe if you read his post properly you would see that he did not base a whole country on the opinions of a couple, his post was based on the NA posters on this thread, yeah?
Look at the 2nd post in the quote "Maybe it's ok in the US public, but not in Norweigan society" Stereotyping the whole use public, based on that post. That's what I'm talking about, so perhaps you should read.
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On July 24 2011 00:36 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:30 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:25 HellRoxYa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:19 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:09 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. do you seriously think the fear of death will stop sick minds to make their massacres? Perhaps not for some, but for the majority, yes, yes it will. I've read several accounts of serial killers and alike, who was afraid of dying, on deathrow, they really was fucking piss scared, just like they deserved to be. Suggestion: Death row makes would be criminals scared and deters them from committing crimes. Proof: Criminals on death row are afraid of dying. Problem: They ended up on death row. Conclusion: You're not very good at this. So we shouldn't punish anybody for their crimes then? Since we can magically prevent every crime from happening, let's not have harsh punishments to go with deeper knowledge of societal problems. Having pre-emptive stuff to people ending up on death row is good, it's needed, but so is death row, for those who are out of reach. Quite obviously it isn't, since neither your nor my country actually shares your opinion nor are they worse off because of it. I'm just trying to make you see that you suck hard at arguing. Even your comeback is terrible.
Pointless arguing with you.
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On July 24 2011 00:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah? Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?)
Waste of time.
User was warned for this post
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On July 24 2011 00:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah? Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?)
North America isn't a country.
User was warned for this post
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This thread is about the massacre on Utøya.
Derailling it into a pro death penalty vs con death penalty is nowhere near what this thread deserves.
Can't you just go make another thread for that? Or post in an existing one?
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Most countries who have the death penalty are islamic. So am I correct in saying that if you are for the death penalty you are in fact propagating the sharia? Im sorry this is a bit off topic but there isnt much information now to discuss about this horrible disaster.
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On July 24 2011 00:41 TOloseGT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:34 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:30 koreasilver wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. Maybe if so many North American posters didn't post so many shit-for-brains comments in these threads for the past 18 hours you wouldn't see so many exasperated replies from European posters, yeah? Maybe if they didn't stereotype a whole country based on the opinion of a couple on the internet I wouldn't have made that exasperated reply, yeah? God maybe in Europe it's ok to be a stereotyping douche, but not here!(lollolsee what I did there?) North America isn't a country.
And the US is not North America.
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I never imagined the difference between Norway and Sweden would be big. Clearly from reading this thread the crime rate in Norway is very low which is a great thing but at the same time you can't even walk at night in certain cities in Sweden without getting robbed and/or beaten down. I can clearly see why so many Swedes like to bash Norway ( jealousy of course).
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Pleasse people just can we all stop this and leave this threat to the updates of facts.
I was arguing in here and im sorry for that.
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Fact is that death sentence is not wanted in our country. Obviously noone here will accept this guy back on the street ever, but capital punishment is not on the table in any way, shape for form.
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On July 24 2011 00:39 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:36 Longshank wrote:On July 24 2011 00:25 MasterFischer wrote:On July 24 2011 00:21 Longshank wrote:On July 24 2011 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional? Who convinced you of that? How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him? I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will. Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not? Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime. Death penalty does not exist in Norway and hopefully never will. Why speak of killing him when that's not even an option? Also I'd love to see your credentials for telling us rehabilitation WILL not work on this person, ever. The collegial penal system experts in Sweden and Norway(and probably Denmark aswell) are of a different oppinion, and if he's still a danger to the society after 21 years he will remain locked up. I'm not saying rehabilitation will never work, but in case of this maniac, I don't think it will. Do you have any cases as severe as this, where the criminal just suddently from a blue sky, turned 180 degreees, and now all of the sudden was rehabilitated? Ok, I'm not going to discuss anything with you since you're set on not understanding a thing. We're talking about rehabilitation as a progress over the course of 21 years, that I have to clarify that to you makes this a waste of time. Good day.. And I'm telling you, I strongly doubt that rehabilitation will work for a man like this, over a course of 21 years, or more. IT's alot of money and time/energy to spend on something that you have no gaurentee of succeeding at, especially with this man, as he is super insane.
death penalty certainly isnt cheaper than trying to rehabilitate this guy for the next 50 years
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MasterFischer still waiting for a good(!) reason why this person should be killed/get the death penalty.
User was warned for this post
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On July 24 2011 00:42 koveras wrote:
Most countries who have the death penalty are islamic. So am I correct in saying that if you are for the death penalty you are in fact propagating the sharia? Im sorry this is a bit off topic but there isnt much information now to discuss about this horrible disaster.
This has nothing to do with this thread and your post in itself does not make sense. If the majority of countries with death penalties should happen to be islamic it is still complete bs bringing f.x. the US or Chinese death penalties in context with the sharia.
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On July 24 2011 00:33 mdma-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:29 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 00:18 DannyJ wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 DoXa wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. this might work on some communities, but certainly not in todays europe Yeah in todays Europe they give the guy the VIP suite. Such heroes. No but todays Europe has a legal system that is not driven by revenge but by protecting society. Most of us are very attentive to the difference between wanting someone dead, and actually murdering them. And most are not comfortable with taking part in collective murder of a person no matter what he did. Although on the larger scale the issue of the death penalty eventually comes down to for me atleast the problem of people being convicted innocently. I rather pay to have the worst criminals in history locked up for all eternity than to lower myself to a murderer myself or to live in a society where revenge drives justice. death penalty is even more expensive than lifelong prison. according to a spiegel article (big german magazine) one execution in the US costs about 300 million Dollars.
I don't think it costs THAT much.
From Amnesty International
Recent Cost Studies
A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)
In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)
In Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case.
(Urban Institute, The Cost of the Death Penalty in Maryland, March 2008)
In California the current sytem costs $137 million per year; it would cost $11.5 million for a system without the death penalty.
(California Commission for the Fair Administration of Justice, July 2008)
The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.
Source
On July 24 2011 00:36 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:26 ZeGzoR wrote:On July 24 2011 00:17 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On July 23 2011 14:33 Fionn wrote:A cell in Halden Prison, Norway's newest high security prison (Trent Isaksen/Statsbygg) ![[image loading]](http://prisonlaw.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/celle_600_0.jpg) You have got to be kidding me... No doubt he'll spend the next 21 years thinking he's a misunderstood hero and writing memoirs of the shooting at that very desk. I don't buy into the Norweigen imprisonment system that stresses rehabilitation. If you're crazy enough to shoot dozens of children as they beg for their life, you think he's going to change his views and magically become a reasonable person? Of course not. He's thanking the stars that he lives in a country where he can watch TV, read books, and get decent food on Norweigen citizens' dime. All while living in a room nicer than most are accustomed to. There are some who have lost their right to live on this planet., and this man is one of them. I think Timothy McVeigh's punishment was perfectly suitable and should be considered. Also, I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but the wikipedia article says it took police over two hours to respond on the island... Is this true?? The prison system in the nordic countrys are based on rehabilitation if possible and detention, not revenge (like in some states in the us). This guy will spend rest of his life under detention, someone telling him when to sleep and when to wake up, when to shower, when to watch tv or whatever. Truth is that harder living enviorments in prisons leads to a higher chance of ex convicts relapsing. Even if his crimes are horrific and some might say he deserves to die (even a part of me do), u cant change the system for one guy. I'd rather make an exception for terribly heinous crimes than indirectly pay for this man's cable TV bill and sandwiches while he sleeps on IKEA furniture.
What's wrong with sleeping on IKEA furniture? :D
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EPT
