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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 23 2011 23:33 Hallayz wrote:Show nested quote +I think what the poster meant was - you guys say you don't want life sentences or the death penalty. But you are saying the guy is going to get forvaring anyway. So basically you're saying you do want a life sentence for him but you just don't want to call it a life sentence, you just call it forvaring instead.
Anyway, this is an emotional time, especially for Norwegians, so it's understandable why some would use national pride in their own country's laws as a form of comfort, yet end up being inconsistent. Just like how I was inconsistent in saying I wouldn't post anymore. OK bedtime. We do not wish to change our laws for this one man. We do not belive in the death penalty and this person will have his punishment by being reminded every single day for the rest of his life that all his deluded efforts didnt achieve anything except unite a nation in grief over this tragedy. I also believe that when the door of that prison cell closes, when the media circus is over and he is left to his own thoughts and 21 years to think about what he has done, seeing what he did to those kids over and over in his mind, he will be in a hell much worse than what he would be given from the mercy of a death penalty.
Spot on. I do not want neither life sentence nor death sentence for anyone. Prison in Norway serves the purpose of rehabilitation. Some people are a danger to society, and in the event that prison cannot change that forvaring (custody in English) is designed to do keep those people away. It is not something I would want for anyone as much as a last line of defense against dangerous human beings; you simply cannot turn your back to a killer with a knife. The point is not to punish: he knew what he did and he knew what awaits him; nothing can ever undo what has been done.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On July 23 2011 23:44 TheBanana wrote:I speedtranslated one of the articles about a story from one of the eyewitnesses. The orignal article in norwegian: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080634+ Show Spoiler +Jorid Holstad Nordmelan (20) from Namsos hid for an hour and a half with 20-30 others, while the gunman was shooting outside.
With barricaded windows and doors, they hid under beds and luggage and were hoping the gunman would move on.
Among the surviviors is Jorid Holstad Nordmelan. Leader of AUF Oslo, she's among the eyewitnesses that are now telling the story of the horrific drama from the AUF-camp at Utøya.
- Norwegian People's Aid came in and said there was a policeman firing at other people. We were told to put mattresses in front of the windows and tables in front of the doors. I thought it was just standard procedure, I didn't think anything could happen in Norway, Nordmelan says.
Then the gunman started shooting at the building she was in.
- I just thought "Now we're going to die".
- I didn't think the shooting was serious.
Moments before the shooting everybody in the camp had just been to an emergency meeting in Storsalen(Large Hall), to talk about what happened in Oslo. When the meeting was over Nordmelan went down to the schoolroom, a dormitory, while speaking to her boyfriend on the phone. Then she heard shots.
- I did't think it was serious, I thought someone was firing in the air, she says.
She didn't look at her watch but she thinks it was arond 5:45
When she cam down to the dormitory were Norwegian People's Aid also were, they looked scared. She went in and not long after people ran in scared and screaming, then they were told to barricade the doors and windows.
Hid in the bedroom.
The 20 year old tells us that a girl was shot in the arm and those that were in the main room threw themselves into the bedroom, which was further away from were the shots were coming from. Normelan hid deep under one of the 3 bunk beds in the little bedroom. Another person did the same, the rest hid among luggage on the floor and inside the beds. In total they were 30 to 40 people in the room, Normalen estimates.
- The tears were running while I was lying there. Then I thought about us under the beds being the safest, because we were so far in. Then I felt guilty(bad conscience) and cried even more.
She says that everybody remained calm, but several were crying and wet themselves.
- Then suddenly we heard the shooting was far away. It was fantastic that he wasn't close by anymore.
It wasn't till then she started thinking about family and close ones. She borrowed a cell phone and sent a message that she was hiding and that they shouldn't worry.
Never stopped shooting
De stayed down in silence in the room for an hour and a half while receiving text messages and reading about the drama through online news on the phone. The shooting continued.
- He just kept shooting. He never shot just one time when he shot. He fired at least 8-10 times. I heard later that he had been shooting people and then walked over to them and shot them in the head afterwards. He was there to kill.
It wasn't before the shooting was far away they thought about calling the police, to make sure they had been told. They told the police they thought there were several shooters, because there were so many shots spread around the island.
Ten minutes later they heard sirenes and the shooting stopped. They thought the rescue had arrived and they would be safe. Then they heard yelling outside the window.
"Hi, hi, This is the police", he yelled. Then started firing again.
She don't know if it was the police or the perpetrator that yelled, because he pretended to be police.
- We hoped that he had missed a lot but then we saw them.
After a while the police entered the building and told everybody to keep their hands above theire heads, as they thought there might be more shooters.
- At first we were really scared. Because we knew he looked like a policeman. Then when we saw they were more we started cheering.
They were quickly told to be quiet, as the police were still looking for more shooters and said there was still danger. They sat in the main room with the police for another hour before they could leave.
Then they got terrible news from friends and acquaintances that there might be a bomb on the island.
It wasn't untill then I got really scared. Shooting you can escape, but there is no escape from a bomb.
The police eventually got them out and moved to the ferry. It wasn't long before they started to run. Dead bodies were spread around them among injured people receving first aid.
- It wasn't untill then we realised how bad it had been. We were hoping he had missed a lot. Everybody started crying when we realised what we had been a part of.
I didn't quite get to the end, sorry, I have to go.
I'm posting it anyway without any proofreading, it was almost finished.
Wow... This stuff is making me so sad T_T How can someone do this.. these kids, even if they survived, will be scarred for life..
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On July 23 2011 23:53 Andymoo wrote:
It's scary to think that if there was in fact a second shooter, he basically got helped off the island thinking he was just another victim amongst all the panic : /
There has been no confirmation about this. The only people saying this were eye-witness reports said in chock. The police are looking in to these witness reports though to clarify if there is indeed another suspect.
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i read somewhere hes playing some games like WoW and Modern Warfare , the last one could be affect him while bursting bullets without fear , imo
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On July 23 2011 23:54 edahl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:33 Hallayz wrote:I think what the poster meant was - you guys say you don't want life sentences or the death penalty. But you are saying the guy is going to get forvaring anyway. So basically you're saying you do want a life sentence for him but you just don't want to call it a life sentence, you just call it forvaring instead.
Anyway, this is an emotional time, especially for Norwegians, so it's understandable why some would use national pride in their own country's laws as a form of comfort, yet end up being inconsistent. Just like how I was inconsistent in saying I wouldn't post anymore. OK bedtime. We do not wish to change our laws for this one man. We do not belive in the death penalty and this person will have his punishment by being reminded every single day for the rest of his life that all his deluded efforts didnt achieve anything except unite a nation in grief over this tragedy. I also believe that when the door of that prison cell closes, when the media circus is over and he is left to his own thoughts and 21 years to think about what he has done, seeing what he did to those kids over and over in his mind, he will be in a hell much worse than what he would be given from the mercy of a death penalty. Spot on. I do not want neither life sentence nor death sentence for anyone. Prison in Norway serves the purpose of rehabilitation. Some people are a danger to society, and in the event that prison cannot change that forvaring (custody in English) is designed to do keep those people away. It is not something I would want for anyone as much as a last line of defense against dangerous human beings; you simply cannot turn your back to a killer with a knife. The point is not to punish: he knew what he did and he knew what awaits him; nothing can ever undo what has been done.
Read my post please.
Rehabilitation for this maniac WILL not work, ever. So why should the government of Norway, pay this man's bill of eating, sleeping and going about his business for the next 50+ years?
Kill him, and you solve the problem. No money have to be paid afterwards, no expensive no-good books on him have to be written and milked for money, no sympatiseres for what he did will exist.
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I dont think, that people who do such horrible things have an motive. You can't explain such things with a rational mind. Maybe he will call xenophobia as a reason, but still it won't explain why you start slaughtering 80+ Teens :/
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On July 23 2011 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Tell me something...
Do you honestly believe that rehabilitation for this maniac is possible?
What's the point of getting him into "forvaring" or whatever.... just kill this sad fuck and be on with curing problems of the world.
anybody capable of murdering 92 people in cold blood, be proud of it like this fucking nutcase, isn't gonna be rehabilitated anytime soon, I will tell you that.
I guess we shouldn't have executed Adolf Hitler either, if we ever had the chance to then?
He only murdered directly/indirectly 6million+ people, and he felt GOOD about it, and he believed stoicly and forcefuly on this beliefs and actions, just like this massmurderer from Norway.
Sadly, Hitler comitted suicide before we could get to him, but you would seriously consider letting a man like Hitler alive, just because it's "wrong" to kill other human beings, regardless of how atrociously outrageous and lunatic their actions may be ?
hmm..
But if theres any chance to find out more about how someone can do this, and how to prevent this from even happening, do you still would kill him?
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On July 23 2011 23:57 whirlpool wrote:
i read somewhere hes playing some games like WoW and Modern Warfare , the last one could be affect him while bursting bullets without fear , imo
There are no games that could ever, ever affect anyone like that.
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On July 23 2011 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Tell me something...
Do you honestly believe that rehabilitation for this maniac is possible?
What's the point of getting him into "forvaring" or whatever.... just kill this sad fuck and be on with curing problems of the world.
anybody capable of murdering 92 people in cold blood, be proud of it like this fucking nutcase, isn't gonna be rehabilitated anytime soon, I will tell you that.
I guess we shouldn't have executed Adolf Hitler either, if we ever had the chance to then?
He only murdered directly/indirectly 6million+ people, and he felt GOOD about it, and he believed stoicly and forcefuly on this beliefs and actions, just like this massmurderer from Norway.
Sadly, Hitler comitted suicide before we could get to him, but you would seriously consider letting a man like Hitler alive, just because it's "wrong" to kill other human beings, regardless of how atrociously outrageous and lunatic their actions may be ?
hmm..
Although I don't necessarily agree with the 21 year max sentence under the guise of rehabilitation, in this case I want them to give it a try. If we don't give him a chance, we'll never know whether or not rehabilitation is actually possible. Personally I wouldn't feel guilty or sad at all if he got the death sentence, but I am curious to know whether or not Norway is onto something with their rehabilitation program. If it works, then my view on the justice system will be changed forever. And if it doesn't work, then I can remain comfortable in my current viewpoints on criminal punishment. But we'll never know if they don't try it on an extreme case like this one.
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This is beyond sad i really feel that no words can cover the sadness.
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The thought of what this person did to all the kids on Utøya is killing me. The horror they must have felt, the panic and how they desperately tried to save theire lives. More and more stories are coming out, we also learn about the heroes in all of this...... ppl who took their small boates out to pick up kids from the water, while bullets were flying around their heads. I want to cry when i hear stories from parents who were talking to their kids when they got shot. One of the rescuers said that one of the most emotional things he saw was four kids holding around each other, all dead. They had tried to protect each other, even when he was shooting at them. I dunno how we can ever get over this.... not even sure its possible.
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On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem.
Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did.
Why are people so emotional?
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On July 23 2011 23:55 TheSilverfox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:53 Andymoo wrote:
It's scary to think that if there was in fact a second shooter, he basically got helped off the island thinking he was just another victim amongst all the panic : / There has been no confirmation about this. The only people saying this were eye-witness reports said in chock. The police are looking in to these witness reports though to clarify if there is indeed another suspect.
That's why I said if there was, since nothing has been confirmed as I completely understand how people aren't exactly in their right state of mind after something like this happens. I just hope there wasn't a second one :/
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The thing is they were mostly kids and they just ran instead of trying to overpower him. Really sad when you think of it.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On July 23 2011 23:53 fidelity wrote:
The scary thing is a lot of people agree with his opinions, even though they would never resort to violence. All over europe people with the same opinions is now sitting in the parliaments...
Terrorists opinions or political views should not matter at all, no matter if right wing or religious or left wing. What if someone fighting against hunger and crime did this for his case? Shouldn't fire back to the others who fight for that.
If you start paying attention to terrorist's agendas you give them way too much credit.
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On July 24 2011 00:00 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
The thing is they were mostly kids and they just ran instead of trying to overpower him. Really sad when you think of it.
Yeah i heard there were a lot of people trying to SPEAK to him and turn him down with words.
So brave people and very advanced thinkers but not in this case ... they were all shot
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I went to sleep with 9-10 peopled dead on the island, woke up to 84 dead. So unreal to try to grasp that this has happen, in a place where I have many old colleauges and been to several times.
I don't know if this has been reported, but the swedish paper/site Expo have found out that the killer was a member of a swedish naziforum where this kind of actions was discussed.
Expo is a paper dedicated to report on extreme right wing groups.
http://expo.se/2010/about-expo_3514.html
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On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:54 edahl wrote:On July 23 2011 23:33 Hallayz wrote:I think what the poster meant was - you guys say you don't want life sentences or the death penalty. But you are saying the guy is going to get forvaring anyway. So basically you're saying you do want a life sentence for him but you just don't want to call it a life sentence, you just call it forvaring instead.
Anyway, this is an emotional time, especially for Norwegians, so it's understandable why some would use national pride in their own country's laws as a form of comfort, yet end up being inconsistent. Just like how I was inconsistent in saying I wouldn't post anymore. OK bedtime. We do not wish to change our laws for this one man. We do not belive in the death penalty and this person will have his punishment by being reminded every single day for the rest of his life that all his deluded efforts didnt achieve anything except unite a nation in grief over this tragedy. I also believe that when the door of that prison cell closes, when the media circus is over and he is left to his own thoughts and 21 years to think about what he has done, seeing what he did to those kids over and over in his mind, he will be in a hell much worse than what he would be given from the mercy of a death penalty. Spot on. I do not want neither life sentence nor death sentence for anyone. Prison in Norway serves the purpose of rehabilitation. Some people are a danger to society, and in the event that prison cannot change that forvaring (custody in English) is designed to do keep those people away. It is not something I would want for anyone as much as a last line of defense against dangerous human beings; you simply cannot turn your back to a killer with a knife. The point is not to punish: he knew what he did and he knew what awaits him; nothing can ever undo what has been done. Read my post please. Rehabilitation for this maniac WILL not work, ever. So why should the government of Norway, pay this man's bill of eating, sleeping and going about his business for the next 50+ years? Kill him, and you solve the problem. No money have to be paid afterwards, no expensive no-good books on him have to be written and milked for money, no sympatiseres for what he did will exist.
This is not how the Norwegian penal system operates, and as I have pointed out in an earlier post (p. 41) a lot of people see this as absolutely essential. I see no reason for me to participate in a further discussion of this point.
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On July 23 2011 23:59 MoneyHypeMike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:57 MasterFischer wrote:
Kill him, and you solve the problem. Killing him won't do anything but approving what he did. Why are people so emotional?
Who convinced you of that?
How is approving what he did possible, just by killing him?
I don't understand this argument, and probaly never will.
Who are you to judge what is fair and what's not?
Killing him, approves that what he did was WRONG. It's his punishment for commiting this brutal crime.
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On July 24 2011 00:00 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
The thing is they were mostly kids and they just ran instead of trying to overpower him. Really sad when you think of it.
Its always easy to say stuff like that in a forum. Ask yourself what you would have done. Would you sacrifice yourself for the other kids around you or would you rather run?
Just don't post such shitty comments...
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