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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't.
uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz
The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched.
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This is insane.
Sadly its not uncommon. Happens in India to and a lot of other countries.
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
The main problem with humanitarian aid services is that they may often be contra-productive in regard to much needed societal transformations. Basically, humanitarian aid can stabilize an inherently broken system almost indefinitely, thus perpetuating and even promoting the cause of poverty in a certain region. Obviously, the issue is worse in states where you could argue that an elite has taken the people as hostages, and humanitarian aid is just like ransom.
Unfortunately, there is no real way out of this, because just stopping humanitarian aid services is no real option either, at least as long as lifes are at risk.
However, it also has to be mentioned that while most humanitarian aid organizations (and development aid organizations as well) have good intentions and a meaningful agenda, there usually is little to no strategic planning that overarches the diverse efforts. This results in tragic collisions of their respective aims, and eventually a huge waste of time and resources.
The latter problem is something that could be addressed well, and there is ample historic evidence that coherent planning between agents with different agendas can foster sustainable improvements (e.g. the SA peace commissions).
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You guy's...
African's have a long history of abuse, violence, crimes which are sickening.
This does not suprise me at all.
The problem within the Continent of Africa is the vicious circle of violence and poverty.
If you have people willing to raid, destroy, take what they want. Then no one will be able to offer any longterm positive production because down the line that will be taken from them.
Black people have been in the slave market for thousands of years. Warlords would sell people without hesitating for any kind of valuables.
It boils down to in Africa. You only care about youreself.
In most of the world this is not the case, we care for eachother much more.
Slavery has been around for over 10 thousand years and probably more.
Free for all mentality.
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Oh, how the media has shown us how bad the world really is.
If we had the current media during any other time period, it would be 100x this bad. Roman Era? Medieval?
This shit is just horrible, the world is just horrible. At least there are some places that don't have things like this.
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On June 03 2011 00:28 tdynasty wrote:
You guy's...
African's have a long history of abuse, violence, crimes which are sickening.
This does not suprise me at all.
The problem within the Continent of Africa is the vicious circle of violence and poverty.
If you have people willing to raid, destroy, take what they want. Then no one will be able to offer any longterm positive production because down the line that will be taken from them.
Black people have been in the slave market for thousands of years. Warlords would sell people without hesitating for any kind of valuables.
It boils down to in Africa. You only care about youreself.
In most of the world this is not the case, we care for eachother much more.
Slavery has been around for over 10 thousand years and probably more.
Free for all mentality.
The reason they have the Free for all mentality is because they are in every way hundreds of years behind the rest of the world. Blaming Africa is a good cop out, and I bet it makes you feel good at night, but nobody is "to blame".
P.S. Try thinking outside of the box, as if you weren't born in a country that has very little social economic problems.
Edit: Also, even if this is an "African Problem". Does that make it any less of a problem? Or do you simply not care?
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Just a side note. You shouldn't be so condescending towards Africa as a continent as a whole. Yes there are a lot of issues there, but many of them occur in different countries with different problems. Just keep in mind that they're not just a bunch of backwards, hopeless, needy people, but that we just happen to hear the worst of the stories.
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On June 02 2011 17:04 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade given slaves were very often sold by Africans themselves. This has nothing to do with race it has to do with a culture that can't sustain modern life because of the innate corruption, racism, religious discrimination and violence associated with African cultures (so okay it has a little to do with Racism but not White supremacy). The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave, especially at the time they did. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them govern well. The European colonies did neither, power was just handed over arbitrarily in most cases and it went to shit really fast, this is just another example of a Culture not fit for modern society.
Slavery has a LOT to do with it. What would africans or europeans selling slaves have to do with the state of the continent? It doesnt matter who did the damage, it just maters that its there. If you systematically remove the smartest and strongest young people from the entire side of a continent over a couple hundred years what do you think would happen? If America sold the strongest/smartest 10-40 year old California citizens to another country do you believe the US economy or government would still be stable after even 50-100 years? I agree that Europe leaving when they did wasn't the best choice for the African continent, but I really dont believe thats the worst that happened to them. Now there are so many corrupt government heads over there that giving out aid probably wont do much until they are removed from power (no im not suggesting we do that).
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On June 02 2011 23:13 aogmxctm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't. uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched.
But the latter list of countries I mentioned are have gotten their act together. Sure, there's millions of starving Indians and Chinese, but these countries are not stuck in a cycle of perpetual implosion.
The ethnicity argument does not really hold true either. Malaysia has a very varied mix of races, and although there have been tensions, the state has made some real progress and is now an NIC.
I don't really think it's an issue of how much they've been exploited. It's more of the fact that nothing has been accomplished, or is likely to be accomplished in Africa for a long time. The people have a problem.
It seems like you have to beat a billion bucks of aid into them, not just simply hand it over. Maybe re-colonization by a first world nation is better than independence because at least you will not simply see the money disappear. Africans just can't rule themselves.
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lol.
Africa isn't poor because Africans don't try.
Africa is poor because WTO guidelines are designed specifically to keep Ethiopian coffee farmers (one example) growing as many coffee beans as they can for prices that barely allow them to survive.
Africa is poor because the British, French, Belgians, and Portuguese raped and pillaged the continent for decades. Let's take the Belgian Congo as an example, half the population died under Belgian rule thanks to the rubber trade, and even in post-independence periods foreign corporations like Shell in the Niger River Delta leave ecological and humanitarian disasters that go unnoticed and ignored.
Africa is poor because colonizing powers brutally created ethnic class divisions out of nowhere (Tutsi, Hutu) in order to more effectively control the natives, leaving severe ethic strife in central-west Africa that paralyzes Congo, Rwanda, Uganda, to this day.
Africa is poor and starving because Europeans like eating Nile Perch at nice restaurants at the expense of starving Africans suffering from a drought two fucking miles from the border.
Africa is poor because little friendly Belgium got pissed at her former colony being uppity, so it instigated a rebellion in Katanga and executed the democratically elected leader of that country, plunging the DRC into decades of military dictatorship.
Many African nations are weak shells of government attempting to provide basic services to populations that were arbitrarily divided with no consideration for nationality, geography, culture, or language. Africa doesn't need charity, it needs to stop getting fucked over when American and European trade representatives wag their fingers about African governments subsidizing their agriculture, then turn around and help their own farmers domestically. The Chinese need to stop protecting their genocidal little bitch of a government in Khartoum, and the Americans need to start pushing for reform in Nigeria. The French would do well to kindly fuck off with neo-imperialist tendencies and maybe, just maybe, not do something as stupid as prolonging genocide in Rwanda with a "humanitarian intervention".
And now people wonder why African governments are largely corrupt and undemocratic.
On June 03 2011 01:03 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 23:13 aogmxctm wrote:On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't. uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched. But the latter list of countries I mentioned are have gotten their act together. Sure, there's millions of starving Indians and Chinese, but these countries are not stuck in a cycle of perpetual implosion. The ethnicity argument does not really hold true either. Malaysia has a very varied mix of races, and although there have been tensions, the state has made some real progress and is now an NIC. I don't really think it's an issue of how much they've been exploited. It's more of the fact that nothing has been accomplished, or is likely to be accomplished in Africa for a long time. The people have a problem. It seems like you have to beat a billion bucks of aid into them, not just simply hand it over. Maybe re-colonization by a first world nation is better than independence because at least you will not simply see the money disappear. Africans just can't rule themselves.
Is it possible to be more ignorant than this, or are you really just trying to look like a fool?
India was never brutalized to the extent Africa was.
China was never brutalized to the extent Africa was, neither was Malaysia.
"Africans just can't rule themselves"... what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
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You guys know this happens in several other countries right?
Turning this discussion to 'what's wrong with Africa?' is somewhat misguided.
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The fact that some of you are unintelligent to the point of claiming it's all of Africa and not specific countries is very telling. There is nothing wrong with Africa. There is something wrong with specific parts of specific countries. Don't be ignorant.
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On June 03 2011 01:17 Ace wrote:
The fact that some of you are unintelligent to the point of claiming it's all of Africa and not specific countries is very telling. There is nothing wrong with Africa. There is something wrong with specific parts of specific countries. Don't be ignorant.
Generalizations are useful to point out systemic issues such as poverty and corruption. But yes, "Africa" as a term can be misleading.
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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism
Number of primarily settler colonies that are first world countries today: every single one of them
Number of primarily exploited colonies that are third world countries today: every single one of them
Coincidence? No, Africa was just exploited more and settled less than other colonies. Guess what, they're more screwed up then the others. Very straight-forward.
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Thats a pretty fucked up situation.. but trying to pass it off as if its the rest of the worlds fault for what some sick piece of shits do makes no sense to me. Nigeria is their own country with their own problems. If the Nigerian people will not stand up against their corruption, then who are we to step in.
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wow
guys like that must be mad or something
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On June 03 2011 01:17 Ace wrote:There is nothing wrong with Africa.
please elaborate, i'd like to see that.
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Comparing the state of Nigeria or other African countries to the USA is quite misleading. It's slightly more appropriate to compare the colonial treatment of native Africans to those folks who happened to be here in the US when the settlers arrived. Who were they again?
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This is pretty fucked up, I mean get that dudes roladex! Babies being sold for black magic rituals and slavery! 14 years in a Nigerian prison almost seems light until I saw a documentary about African prisons, that dude is going to get raped and killed in there if some people find that out.
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EPT
