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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110601/wl_africa_afp/nigeriacrimechildtrafficking_20110601143218
Nigerian police have raided a home allegedly being used to force teenage girls to have babies that were then offered for sale for trafficking or other purposes, authorities said on Wednesday.
Full Story:
+ Show Spoiler +LAGOS (AFP) – Nigerian police have raided a home allegedly being used to force teenage girls to have babies that were then offered for sale for trafficking or other purposes, authorities said on Wednesday.
"We stormed the premises of the Cross Foundation in Aba three days ago following a report that pregnant girls aged between 15 and 17 are being made to make babies for the proprietor," said Bala Hassan, police commissioner for Abia state in the country's southeast.
"We rescued 32 pregnant girls and arrested the proprietor who is undergoing interrogation over allegations that he normally sells the babies to people who may use them for rituals or other purposes."
Some of the girls told police they had been offered to sell their babies for between 25,000 and 30,000 naira (192 dollars) depending on the sex of the baby.
The babies would then be sold to buyers for anything from 300,000 naira to one million naira (1,920 and 6,400 dollars) each, according to a state agency fighting human trafficking in Nigeria, the National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking in Persons (NAPTIP).
The girls were expected to be transferred to the regional NAPTIP offices in Enugu on Wednesday, the regional head Ijeoma Okoronkwo told AFP.
Hassan said the owner of the "illegal baby factory" is likely to face child abuse and human trafficking charges. Buying or selling of babies is illegal in Nigeria and can carry a 14-year jail term.
"We have so many cases going on in court right now," said Okoronkwo.
In 2008, police raids revealed an alleged network of such clinics, dubbed baby "farms" or "factories" in the local press.
Cases of child abuse and people trafficking are common in West Africa. Some children are bought from their families to for use as labour in plantations, mines, factories or as domestic help.
Others are sold into prostitution while a few are either killed or tortured in black magic rituals. NAPTIP says it has also seen a trend of illegal adoption.
"There is a problem of illict adoption and people not knowing the right way to adopt children," said Okoronkwo.
Human trafficking is ranked the third most common crime after economic fraud and drug trafficking in the country, according to UNESCO.
Put simply, this is one of the most disgusting things I've ever read. It ranks up there with South African men raping toddlers because of their belief that sex with a virgin could cure AIDS.
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Maybe it's wrong to bring this in this direction, but: does reading an article related to sexual slavery change anyones opinion of our use of the word "rape"? Yes it's off topic, but I find it impossible not to bring up given the heated debate thats taken place here recently. Personally, I find it hard to justify the use of the word in a casual sense when it is attached (regardless of context) to such awful acts. It seems incredibly naive to me that people would try to deny the connection. Heres a similar example: would we accept it if a caster or gamer said " that game was a holocaust!". Yes, that word has other definitions than the mechanical slaughter of jews- just like "rape" is synonymous with "pillaging"- but can you deny that theres an obvious and uncomfortable anti-semetic tone to it? I personally feel that our use of the word rape has a similar anti-feminine tone. I'm interested in what difference people see between the two.
Please share your thoughts on the story, Africa in general, and language. I'd really like to see a civil discussion.
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed? Wouldn't working with the government on deals that benefit both sides to help bring businesses and entrepreneurs to the country to help develop it. Be better than to just throw money at the problem? You'd get money from charities then to what exactly with it?
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Aah the old theory of demand/supply put into practice:
![[image loading]](http://www.netmba.com/images/econ/micro/supply-demand/supplydemand.gif)
Its nothing more than
"Free market capitalism consists of a free-price system where supply and demand are allowed to reach their point of equilibrium without intervention by the government. Productive enterprises are privately-owned, and the role of the state is limited to protecting property rights".
And charities will never solve anything. What we need is people who are able to help themselves and who can refuse getting help from above. The help that comes from above is also power that comes from above and then you are suddenly enslaved.
There is only one way to help people if they really wants it and that is by getting information out to them, then get them organised, then they must show each other that they are not there for self interests but that they support each other and then you can throw down a revolution, to make a society with no servants and no bosses.
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Wow I never have even heard of anything like this before. That's pretty insane.
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This can't be true... I'm just gonna assume it's made up somewhere. Don't need to believe shit like this, true or not if i believe in it i lose.
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Wow this makes me sick to my stomach, using babies for rituals or other purposes? So sick omg... some of the people in this world are literally out of they're minds...
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
this brings to mind a quote about giving a man a fish
but i don't think that's the real reason these people are hungry (i think it's their local brothers with guns)
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On June 02 2011 16:49 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
this brings to mind a quote about giving a man a fish but i don't think that's the real reason these people are hungry
Yea give a man a fish after you stole his resources and people and ignored genocides (slaves)
A fish is toooo much to ask for
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the world has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government.
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aaah the fish story
Take away the fish so the man cant supply himself anymore, then give him a factory so he can get enslaved there by a boss.
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On June 02 2011 16:51 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:49 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
this brings to mind a quote about giving a man a fish but i don't think that's the real reason these people are hungry Yea give a man a fish after you stole his resources and people and ignored genocides (slaves) A fish is toooo much to ask for
we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else?
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On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government.
Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right?
Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all.
we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else?
We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
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This makes me sad, it truly does. I hope someday I'll get to see all the third world countries pull themselves out of the rut that the rest of the world put them in. At least the Nigerian police are actually raiding places like these, instead of falling into corruption.
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On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
Hey man, please clean up your tone. I agree with the point you are trying to make (it's in the OP), but theres no need to treat anyone like that. Asking those leading questions that imply racism is very disrespectful.
I'd really like to see a civil discussion.
Also in the op.
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On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:
Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right?
Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all.
i believe you are the only person talking about racism.. where are you drawing these from? but if you want, i will bite... they are receiving more foreign aid than most, if not all, countries
We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
i think it's less of an issue of past slavery affecting their current position than it is a failure to adapt to a changing world
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On June 02 2011 16:59 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Hey man, please clean up your tone. I agree with the point you are trying to make (it's in the OP), but theres no need to treat anyone like that. Asking those leading questions that imply racism is very disrespectful. Also in the op.
You are right. I was just caught off guard and frustrated by some of the comments.
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On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
Why there's very little economic growth when there's no slavery, no imperialism and bilions of dollars pumped every now and then?
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On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade given slaves were very often sold by Africans themselves. This has nothing to do with race it has to do with a culture that can't sustain modern life because of the innate corruption, racism, religious discrimination and violence associated with African cultures (so okay it has a little to do with Racism but not White supremacy). The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave, especially at the time they did. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them govern well. The European colonies did neither, power was just handed over arbitrarily in most cases and it went to shit really fast, this is just another example of a Culture not fit for modern society.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Urgh. This is so disgusting....... My soul just died a little.
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Life is not fair. It's life. This world sucks.
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I just ate breakfast and I almost threw up just by reading this.
No word can match the vulgarity humans are capable of.
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On June 02 2011 17:04 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade given slaves were very often sold by Africans themselves. This has nothing to do with race it has to do with a culture that can't sustain modern life because of the innate corruption, racism, religious discrimination and violence associated with African cultures (so okay it has a little to do with Racism but not White supremacy). The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave, especially at the time they did. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them govern well. The European colonies did neither, power was just handed over arbitrarily in most cases and it went to shit really fast, this is just another example of a Culture not fit for modern society.
So are you entirely cynical about the situation? Do you believe that the people can acclimatise to modern society, or that it's impossible? Obviously as fellow human beings with compassion it's wrong to not try and intervene- or is it? Every letter I type makes me sound more like a white supremacist. I would argue that our modern society is empirically better, that was the argument for colonialism- wasn't it? you've outlined many of the problems that have led to today's Africa. Do you think there are solutions?
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This is a terrible thing to have happened, but Africa =/= Nigeria.
Statements like this:
On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid
Always annoy me.
But on topic, issues like this always come up when there is a demand for a legitimate or illegitimate service. It's similar to the same 'baby factories' that have occurred in India. These things will continue to happen unless ideologies over human rights can be change in those countries - which can only come from stable and healthy governments providing adequate support for the county.
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On June 02 2011 17:10 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:04 ComusLoM wrote:On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade given slaves were very often sold by Africans themselves. This has nothing to do with race it has to do with a culture that can't sustain modern life because of the innate corruption, racism, religious discrimination and violence associated with African cultures (so okay it has a little to do with Racism but not White supremacy). The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave, especially at the time they did. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them govern well. The European colonies did neither, power was just handed over arbitrarily in most cases and it went to shit really fast, this is just another example of a Culture not fit for modern society. So are you entirely cynical about the situation? Do you believe that the people can acclimatise to modern society, or that it's impossible? Obviously as fellow human beings with compassion it's wrong to not try and intervene- or is it? Every letter I type makes me sound more like a white supremacist. I would argue that our modern society is empirically better, that was the argument for colonialism- wasn't it? you've outlined many of the problems that have led to today's Africa. Do you think there are solutions?
I'm actually very optimistic about Africa. But frankly the way the world is handling Africa is incredibly worrying, we should not be focusing on charities but focusing on taking down corrupt governments and creating business opportunities in Africa. If we are going to help at all sending money and food is completely the wrong way to go about it. Invest in farms and businesses or don't help at all. If Africa suddenly got no help at all from foreign powers it would be forced to either sink or swim, and as humanity goes it will almost definitely swim and change for the better. It could of course backfire, but how much worse can it get really?
On June 02 2011 17:10 Smokincoyote wrote:This is a terrible thing to have happened, but Africa =/= Nigeria. Statements like this: Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid Always annoy me.
You can't really expect this not to turn into an Africa debate to be honest there has been so much crap going on there recently threads like this serve as a good point of debate. Why are you annoyed by that statement though? Implying Africa is backwards or that it doesn't receive real humanitarian aid (No aid is pretty much better than the type of aid they get right now). African governments don't live in the real world right now, they're like an illegitimate teenager that keeps getting bailed out of jail and receives extraordinary amounts of pocket money even though it will all go to booze and coke.
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Lexpar: so how exactly do you imagine the "aid" that world should give Africa?
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This has been going on for so long, every now and then some news article stirs up interest for about 10 minutes.
Then the readers go back to buying/playing SC2: HoTS while letting the practice continue.
It's just the world we live in, "nothing we can do" collectively due to individual selfishness. My severely cynical heart goes out to these babies, but at the end of the day my soul makes peace with enjoying my quality of life.
Edit:
On June 02 2011 17:15 ondik wrote:
Lexpar: so how exactly do you imagine the "aid" that world should give Africa?
Send 1/3 of one's income to stabilize/improve economic conditions in Nigeria. Then this industry will eventually decline/stop. Would one's bleeding heart do so? Or would one forget about the matter in about 10 minutes watching a livestream?
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I...don't know what to say of this.
There is truly no limit as to how fucked up things can get in this world. WTF.
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On June 02 2011 17:04 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade [...] The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave Can't tell if trolling :S
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I think the reason Africa comes off as such a horrible place is because it's remote and uninvolved with the rest of the world; no one comes here so when you hear a story about rape it sounds like all Africans do is stuff like OP said.
Look at it from this viewpoint though; assume no one lived in the US, or it was remote and all you saw were pictures of slums (even though I don't think US has bad slums like Africa), but let's say, you never visited, heard it was a poor country, and you heard of 7 or 8 times that a kid shot his teachers and people at his school. You'd draw a pretty gruesome picture from that.
Now, this is absolutely disgusting, yes, and I believe it's true, but a lot of human trafficking goes to make prostitutes for countries in Europe -- not sure about America. At the same time, it's very rare to hear of. Nigeria is pretty involved crime-wise and they're not a good country to take example from. A lot of Africans are very moral, nice people.
The South Africans who rape toddlers are an unusual handful -- I've never met or heard of any personal connection to anyone like that and I think it's absolutely disgusting, as do most South Africans.
All I'm saying is, stories like this give a really bad view of Africa, and while Africa has a lot of problems, you do meet some very nice people here and it's not all bad as the media would have you believe.
Someone with a 'baby farm' deserves to be shot and it's utterly revolting. I wouldn't ever try and defend that. And the black magic shit that they get involved in is not only stupid and disgusting, it's annoying. I've had iguanas and lizards that I was raising stolen so that people could use them for rituals. I mean, this refers to using babies for rituals which is a whole other level, but god damn trying to raise a reptile is like trying to protect gold.
EDIT
Oh, and seeing some of the comments is really annoying. Like, yeah, I suffer from corruption in government, but making some sort of statement like 'Oh we really need to sort out all the corrupt African governments' is ignorant. Are you really gonna say that the US government is not corrupt? I have no doubt that they are, they just cover it up really well while African governments just let it all hang out. And making some sort of high and might statement about 'fixing Africa' doesn't mean anything.
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So i can't understand how it's slavery when the girls receive money for the babies? Yes it's something really bad for our western culture and we can't accept that kind of trade but everyone have the right to be an idiot.
I really want to know why some people here think that a whole continent need to be fed with a spoon and given some crazy amounts of money because "we did something wrong to them like 100 years ago"? After WWII European nations backed off from Africa and let the natives rule. We all see what happened.
I am rasist and do i think that white man are superior? Hell no.
Do i think that the majority of African countries need to blame only themselves for hunger/corruption/poor living conditions? Hell yes.
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I knew about stuff like this for years now a lot of people may not know this but children body parts can be used for a charm or curse. For example children testicles will help improve your business if you bury them in your shop sick right? Now the question is it better for these people to randomly butcher children to get these parts or farm them like in this case? One may even go so far to say this a improvement. In the end this is all due to a failure of a culture with beliefs out dated by thousands of years.
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On June 02 2011 17:28 kinray wrote:
So i can't understand how it's slavery when the girls receive money for the babies? Yes it's something really bad for our western culture and we can't accept that kind of trade but everyone have the right to be an idiot.
I really want to know why some people here think that a whole continent need to be fed with a spoon and given some crazy amounts of money because "we did something wrong to them like 100 years ago"? After WWII European nations backed off from Africa and let the natives rule. We all see what happened.
I am rasist and do i think that white man are superior? Hell no.
Do i think that the majority of African countries need to blame only themselves for hunger/corruption/poor living conditions? Hell yes.
I can't even begin to tackle all thats wrong with this post. I haven't slept in 20 hours. Please, someone else grab this.
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Guys, you realize slavery pretty much still exists in modern day Africa, right? Majority of profits that are generated in Africa (natural resources mostly, esp. precious and radioactive materials, also oil of course), are controlled by international corporations and rest assured, they don't pay competitive salaries or provide health insurance for their workers. The constant skirmishes and wars are encouraged by the fact that weapons are often more readily available than food, and it's just a never-ending circle because despite all the humanitarian outcries, there's far too much money to be made in abusing the continent. You can't say it's all the Africans' fault and imperialism ended ages ago etc, because what's happening there today IS a result of what the Western world is doing.
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On June 02 2011 17:15 ondik wrote:
Lexpar: so how exactly do you imagine the "aid" that world should give Africa?
I firmly believe that the majority of Western nations owe Africa a debt. Not only because of the history of the slave trade, but also because of the blind eye they routinely turn to severe breaches in human rights. The idea of racial supremacy has been largely instilled in many African nations because of colonization. While it's impossible to say what Africa would be like today without intervention by Western powers, I think it's very safe to say that we have played a large part in the continent's decline into poverty and disease.
I don't know what the solution for Africa is: it's why I asked for TL's opinion. I didn't just make this thread to be the bearer of awful news, I really want to know people's opinions.
I'm sorry if this isn't a very satisfying answer. :x
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On June 02 2011 17:25 Shamrock_ wrote:
I think the reason Africa comes off as such a horrible place is because it's remote and uninvolved with the rest of the world; no one comes here so when you hear a story about rape it sounds like all Africans do is stuff like OP said.
Look at it from this viewpoint though; assume no one lived in the US, or it was remote and all you saw were pictures of slums (even though I don't think US has bad slums like Africa), but let's say, you never visited, heard it was a poor country, and you heard of 7 or 8 times that a kid shot his teachers and people at his school. You'd draw a pretty gruesome picture from that.
Now, this is absolutely disgusting, yes, and I believe it's true, but a lot of human trafficking goes to make prostitutes for countries in Europe -- not sure about America. At the same time, it's very rare to hear of. Nigeria is pretty involved crime-wise and they're not a good country to take example from. A lot of Africans are very moral, nice people.
The South Africans who rape toddlers are an unusual handful -- I've never met or heard of any personal connection to anyone like that and I think it's absolutely disgusting, as do most South Africans.
All I'm saying is, stories like this give a really bad view of Africa, and while Africa has a lot of problems, you do meet some very nice people here and it's not all bad as the media would have you believe.
Someone with a 'baby farm' deserves to be shot and it's utterly revolting. I wouldn't ever try and defend that. And the black magic shit that they get involved in is not only stupid and disgusting, it's annoying. I've had iguanas and lizards that I was raising stolen so that people could use them for rituals. I mean, this refers to using babies for rituals which is a whole other level, but god damn trying to raise a reptile is like trying to protect gold.
EDIT
Oh, and seeing some of the comments is really annoying. Like, yeah, I suffer from corruption in government, but making some sort of statement like 'Oh we really need to sort out all the corrupt African governments' is ignorant. Are you really gonna say that the US government is not corrupt? I have no doubt that they are, they just cover it up really well while African governments just let it all hang out. And making some sort of high and might statement about 'fixing Africa' doesn't mean anything.
Thanks for your reply. I found it very interesting. It's wasn't my intention to paint Africans as an evil people.
Like you've said, a lot of the slave trade supplies Europe... What I'm saying is that like this, a lot of Africa's problems are directly caused by the western world. The west has been causing, or at the very least ignoring, Africa's problems for hundreds of years, and it continues today.
What do you think the West's involvement should be with Africa today?
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i think in our society (i'm referring to north American society....can't speak for the whole world.) the word rape DOES have an anti feminine undertone, in a way. what mean is when you hear the word you automatically think of a man raping a woman, not the other way around. i know the term is offensive to some people, (mostly women) but not to others. i don't think the word should be used around people who take offense to it, but that is hard to gauge sometimes so its just an all around tricky thing. i think the person who is offended by the word has a responsibility to let someone who uses the word know that the word makes them uncomfortable.
as for the difference between the word holocaust having an anti-semetic tone and the word rape having anti feminine tone, id say there isn't really much of a difference. i guess the only difference is that using the word holocaust to describe something else (like a game of sc) is just less common. maybe because after WW2 so many people were so sensitive about it that it just fell out of use other than in history books or discussions.
perhaps another difference is that the holocaust was 60 years ago, and rape is ongoing. the holocaust isn't really that fresh in most peoples minds,( other than people who experienced it, and their families, etc) while rape is pretty fresh.
I'm creating more questions that answers so ill leave it at that. 
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All the celebrities ie Madonna etc who thinks its cool to buy a kid have a lot to answer for.
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That is so disgustingly terrible. The fact that I'm sitting here in front of my computer wondering how in hell an industry like that can exist saddens me.
The world is horrible.
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I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it.
I like how these people can get to do whatever the hell they want no matter how outragous or sickening and somehow, someway, people will make up a reason why these people really aren't accountable for their actions and that in reality it was pretty much me and everyone else that lives in a modern civilized country that should be held responsible for their actions.
Maybe i should start something like this and when i get arrested for it i will hope people start blaming Italy for allowing the Roman empire to settle over my country. Not sure, how long does this free-pass on everything last?
All the celebrities ie Madonna etc who thinks its cool to buy a kid have a lot to answer for.
No...they don't
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On June 02 2011 17:16 Ravencruiser wrote:Edit: Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:15 ondik wrote:
Lexpar: so how exactly do you imagine the "aid" that world should give Africa? Send 1/3 of one's income to stabilize/improve economic conditions in Nigeria. Then this industry will eventually decline/stop. Would one's bleeding heart do so? Or would one forget about the matter in about 10 minutes watching a livestream?
and after everything that happened to Africa in last 50 years people still think money is the cure and if they had more of it they would've been better..sigh
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Very smart guy trafficking girls for sex then selling the offspring in case they get pregnant. Pretty sick win-win for the proprietor. I'm glad Im not from Africa
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Omg this is so wrong in EVERY way possible. Sigh.
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On June 02 2011 17:33 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:28 kinray wrote:
So i can't understand how it's slavery when the girls receive money for the babies? Yes it's something really bad for our western culture and we can't accept that kind of trade but everyone have the right to be an idiot.
I really want to know why some people here think that a whole continent need to be fed with a spoon and given some crazy amounts of money because "we did something wrong to them like 100 years ago"? After WWII European nations backed off from Africa and let the natives rule. We all see what happened.
I am rasist and do i think that white man are superior? Hell no.
Do i think that the majority of African countries need to blame only themselves for hunger/corruption/poor living conditions? Hell yes. I can't even begin to tackle all thats wrong with this post. I haven't slept in 20 hours. Please, someone else grab this.
I am really interested in your opinion here because as i understand it in your point of view any group of people/nation/continent can blame the big bad imperialists for all the bad things that happened to them?
To give you some examples i want to point of current state of most eastern European countries. Yes most of us are "part" of the European union but the way of life here is so far from the way of life in any Western country that as i can understand from your post we need to be given free money.
The same goes for quite a few far east countries, some south American countries and so on.
As i said in my first post the most important thing is not to be rasist and judge everyone equally.
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As a South African I can tell these things do exist, however, they most likely exist everywhere in the world - look Thailand's Child trafficking for instance.
However, since I do live here there is one thing I can tell everyone that wishes to bring aid and what-not. DON'T, I know it sounds harsh but the governments of these poor states are to blame. They do not want help their own kind, so why should others 'help'?
I live in a country where the minority does NOT benefit from an ongoing affirmative action. At least South Africa is not nearly as terrible as most other African countries and I do believe we will be fine in the end.
We have a terrible problem with Nigerian criminals here too, so I can tell you, whatever you here of Nigerian crime - believe it to be true! But they only consitute to less than 2% of their population like every other country.
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i like how they have to mention in the article that it is illegal to sell babies in Nigeria, like we even questioning that at all.
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uhhh wtf? People do this?
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The proletariat (from Latin proletarius, a citizen of the lowest class) is a term used to identify a lower social class, usually the working class; a member of such a class is proletarian. Originally it was identified as those people who had no wealth other than their children.
The proletariat is in other words a class whos purpose to society is to reproduce and supply kids to the rich. Keeping people down on their knees just so they can make babies is no new phenomen and it was a widespread practice in Europe hundred years ago when capitalism had its primetime.
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The world outside the West is truly a living hell. I can't even begin to imagine what else exists that we don't know about.
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The history of slavery and imperialism in Africa is something I wish we could shed some actual historical light on. The same goes for the Arab-Israeli conflict.
I am very skeptical that the West as a whole is responsible for the dire state many African countries are in. But I will concede my position to some facts or some solid history. I wish for more informative replies than:
'Oh you REALLY think it's all about the west do you? How ignorant!'
responded to by:
'I can't be bothered to tell you why you're so wrong, so fuck you instead'
and then a bunch of bullshit, invented, half-assed explanations and no actual history.
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Africa has been selling its people into slavery for hundreds of years. This story is terribly sad, but its par for the course for the "motherland."
I don't think that any amount of charity work can fix what ever it is about Africa that compels them to deal in human trafficking. The problems in Africa are Africa's responsibility. IMO, its a waste of time and energy to continue spending time and money there.
That sounds cold hearted but the hard reality is that life is not fair and innocent people die everyday. America is struggling to pay its own bills and its silly to keep throwing money at such a backward continent. If its us or them, I vote "us."
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"he normally sells the babies to people who may use them for rituals or other purposes"
What the fuck...
If they would sell the babies to people that can't have kids, I'd understand that, even though I'd still disagree, obviously. But this is just messed up.
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EVERYONE- if you have a caring bone in your body actually go and actually do some real life HELP. Dr Helvetica in his blog is contemplating swallowing some pills. Go and share your support now!!!! Top of the blog page.
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Human trafficking is a problem even in America, but that baby factory is kinda unexpected although I should not be surprised. To be fair, reading the article it seems the country is aware of this "cultural" problem and are trying to solve it even with their corrupted system. Reading a little bit about Nigeria, this problem will eventually be alleviated, as the country seems to be the next China/Brazil/India economically. People paint Africa very negatively, but once democracy is taken more seriously there, things get better, slowly but better.
Now about Africa as a whole, I don't like to discuss the entirety of the continent. Each section of the continent has it own distinctive problem. Should Western countries aid them? In war situations and where human rights are violated without local government trying to solve it, yeah I think they should intervene. Now money aid, that depends on how it is handled.
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On June 02 2011 17:33 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:28 kinray wrote:
So i can't understand how it's slavery when the girls receive money for the babies? Yes it's something really bad for our western culture and we can't accept that kind of trade but everyone have the right to be an idiot.
I really want to know why some people here think that a whole continent need to be fed with a spoon and given some crazy amounts of money because "we did something wrong to them like 100 years ago"? After WWII European nations backed off from Africa and let the natives rule. We all see what happened.
I am rasist and do i think that white man are superior? Hell no.
Do i think that the majority of African countries need to blame only themselves for hunger/corruption/poor living conditions? Hell yes. I can't even begin to tackle all thats wrong with this post. I haven't slept in 20 hours. Please, someone else grab this.
I'm actually curious to see your response.
See the first line states that the teenage girls are being forced to have kids...but nowhere in the rest of the article does it state that. In fact they are getting paid to have kids.
So now I'm confused....are they being abducted, raped, and then forced to have kids and then subsequently being paid???? for those kids they produce... or do they voluntarily go there for the money? The situation here has a large impact on my reaction.
I obviously don't condone the whole baby factory thing but if they are voluntarily churning out babies for money then uhh I'm not as outraged frankly. The worlds a shitty place so this is hardly surprising.
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On June 02 2011 17:35 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:15 ondik wrote:
Lexpar: so how exactly do you imagine the "aid" that world should give Africa? I firmly believe that the majority of Western nations owe Africa a debt. Not only because of the history of the slave trade, but also because of the blind eye they routinely turn to severe breaches in human rights. The idea of racial supremacy has been largely instilled in many African nations because of colonization. While it's impossible to say what Africa would be like today without intervention by Western powers, I think it's very safe to say that we have played a large part in the continent's decline into poverty and disease. I don't know what the solution for Africa is: it's why I asked for TL's opinion. I didn't just make this thread to be the bearer of awful news, I really want to know people's opinions. I'm sorry if this isn't a very satisfying answer. :x
Seriously?
It's the western world's fault that a group of people are farming babies? If you're neighbor turns a blind eye, would you blame him for your own transgressions? Is a drug dealer less guilty than the drug buyer?
When you say that the majority of western nations owe Africa a debt, who exactly do you mean? What western nations spent their citizen's tax money to purchase slaves? Its my understanding that the buying and selling of slaves was done on an individual level. If that is true, how then can you say that I, more than 100 years removed from the days of slavery in my own country, am obligated to pay a debt to a foreign nation. Because when you say "western nation" what you are really saying is every tax paying man and woman who lives in said nation.
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It's reading stuff like this that makes you realise how incredibly lucky people who live in developed countries are. Of course most people don't realise just how lucky they are.
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Oh god, i read the first sentence and literally felt sick.
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On June 02 2011 19:58 Incognoto wrote:
It's reading stuff like this that makes you realise how incredibly lucky people who live in developed countries are. Of course most people don't realise just how lucky they are.
That is the truth and I come from Africa. I can tell you that I know I'm lucky to at least live in a country where the government doesn't hate white people for what they did to black people just 30 years ago, I guess we are blessed to have had someone like Nelson Mandela emerge from the hate.
However, The racism and Xenophobia in/from other countries in Africa is horrendous to say the least.
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On June 02 2011 19:58 Incognoto wrote:
It's reading stuff like this that makes you realise how incredibly lucky people who live in developed countries are. Of course most people don't realise just how lucky they are.
Absolutely. Time and time again, I see 3/4 plates full of food just dumped into bins, etc
It is just pure sickening. Good society? Ha
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This is very bad it's true, and there are similar and maybe even worse things going on in other parts of Africa that we know about. A story like this is shocking to read but it's not surprising, which is very sad when you think about it.
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This peace of news and this thread make me sick. Unbelievable cruelty.
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Imperialism still exists today, it's just not quite as "in-your-face" as in the 19th century. Look at Shell and Nigeria.
Also, the "foreign aid" South-Sahara Africa got was one of the reasons the food market broke down and local farmers went out of business. Overfishing of their coasts was another nail for the coffin (one of the reasons for the rise of piracy in Somalia).
Many of the African problems are "left-overs" from European colonialism.
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On June 02 2011 17:33 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Guys, you realize slavery pretty much still exists in modern day Africa, right? Majority of profits that are generated in Africa (natural resources mostly, esp. precious and radioactive materials, also oil of course), are controlled by international corporations and rest assured, they don't pay competitive salaries or provide health insurance for their workers. The constant skirmishes and wars are encouraged by the fact that weapons are often more readily available than food, and it's just a never-ending circle because despite all the humanitarian outcries, there's far too much money to be made in abusing the continent. You can't say it's all the Africans' fault and imperialism ended ages ago etc, because what's happening there today IS a result of what the Western world is doing.
Even if a slave makes a single dime off his work, he too is a profiteer. This is the absurdity of the liberal anti-profit ideology. Even a slave is evil.
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A lot of Africans haven't grasped the concept of helping each other, not neighbourhood-wise of course, but state- and community as a whole - wise. But this concept of being responsible for others is necessary to have a social system being close to a democracy. Among the elites and politicians in Africa there is no will to make their countries prosper. The enrichment of yourself and your family is the biggest purpose for these people. Even some ambivalent countries like China have a government, which is trying to make the country prosper, not so in Africa.
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Africa WANTS slavery, africa WANTS poverty- when will you get it!
Africa acts in a manner that rejects the premises of wealth accumulation - the establishment of property rights and liquid capital markets, hence it demonstrated its preference of poverty. Lets say youre on an island. And so too is another guy. And you choose to steal and plunder each others stuff constantly, instead of trading and peaceful relations. Now how can you blame the rest of the world what these two guys are doing? It is clearly their own preference to live in poverty, so let them have it i say. Eliminate all foreign aid, and let them handle their affairs like adults. If they want poverty and misery, let them have it.
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On June 02 2011 20:19 BlackFlag wrote:
Imperialism still exists today, it's just not quite as "in-your-face" as in the 19th century. Look at Shell and Nigeria.
Also, the "foreign aid" South-Sahara Africa got was one of the reasons the food market broke down and local farmers went out of business. Overfishing of their coasts was another nail for the coffin (one of the reasons for the rise of piracy in Somalia).
Many of the African problems are "left-overs" from European colonialism.
All their major problems are left-overs from colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, call it what you want. Thing is, they are still getting just as fucked as they were hundreds of years ago.
The world is upside down and completely fucked up.
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On June 02 2011 20:24 SkyTheUnknown wrote:
A lot of Africans haven't grasped the concept of helping each other, not neighbourhood-wise of course, but state- and community as a whole - wise. But this concept of being responsible for others is necessary to have a social system being close to a democracy. Among the elites and politicians in Africa there is no will to make their countries prosper. The enrichment of yourself and your family is the biggest purpose for these people. Even some ambivalent countries like China have a government, which is trying to make the country prosper, not so in Africa.
Funny how it sounds like you know what you're talking about while at the same time being completely wrong.
The problem is actually general widespread corruption. A lot, if not most, of the aid sent to Africa goes in to private pockets. A lot of projects never get of the ground or are never finished (things like building wells and schools). This in turn creates a mentality in society that is built upon distrust, which means that the protection and enrichment of or betterment of yourself and your own family is the most important or only priority.
Now, people can't be expected to behave and pay taxes and support a system which doesn't work, and the system can't work unless the people behave and pay taxes. So nothing happens, and nothing will, as long as the west just keeps throwing money at the problem. It's a lot more deeply rooted than one might suspect.
http://www.qog.pol.gu.se/research/research1.htm
(main site: http://www.qog.pol.gu.se/)
On June 02 2011 20:31 Mangemongen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:19 BlackFlag wrote:
Imperialism still exists today, it's just not quite as "in-your-face" as in the 19th century. Look at Shell and Nigeria.
Also, the "foreign aid" South-Sahara Africa got was one of the reasons the food market broke down and local farmers went out of business. Overfishing of their coasts was another nail for the coffin (one of the reasons for the rise of piracy in Somalia).
Many of the African problems are "left-overs" from European colonialism. All their major problems are left-overs from colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, call it what you want. Thing is, they are still getting just as fucked as they were hundreds of years ago. The world is upside down and completely fucked up.
Gigantic half-truth. Not to mention the fact that there is actually a lot of money and good will being thrown at the problem.
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On June 02 2011 20:31 Mangemongen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:19 BlackFlag wrote:
Imperialism still exists today, it's just not quite as "in-your-face" as in the 19th century. Look at Shell and Nigeria.
Also, the "foreign aid" South-Sahara Africa got was one of the reasons the food market broke down and local farmers went out of business. Overfishing of their coasts was another nail for the coffin (one of the reasons for the rise of piracy in Somalia).
Many of the African problems are "left-overs" from European colonialism. All their major problems are left-overs from colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, call it what you want. Thing is, they are still getting just as fucked as they were hundreds of years ago. The world is upside down and completely fucked up.
Honestly, I wish it were as easy as "look, we got fucked a few years ago, let's try to fix all that."
Unfortunately, Africa is not capable of living a Western World Way. People in top spots of each country had the same education as other top people in other countries, do not, for one minute believe that the president of South Africa / Nigeria, even Sudan had no education. These are educated people, it's the mentality of "Hell, I suffered and passed, why can't they?" that's plagueing this continent.
Also, too many people here have strong beliefs that their way is the right way, and they are sure as hell ready to fight for it.
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Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't.
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Corruption and nepotism are rampant and the African continent. If distribution of aid isn't monitored it gets confiscated and sold. And aid does destroy local markets and production if there is any.
Loyalty is always along tribal and religiuos divides. So democracy doesn't work. It is always a tribe in control or a loose allaiance of tribes. If youre from the wrong tribe you are screwed. Protection of minorities is no priority for the leaders who are only looking out for themselves.
I have heard stories of teachers who tried to set up schools. Officials go alang with it milking the funding comming in. When it commes to putting in some efforts or funding themselves they stalled. The teachers returned disillusioned after 3 years.
Colonialism/neocolonialism is only a part of the problems. The ''african'' culture is sickening. Other excolonies like India and others developed. Africa did not.
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no amount of money will help africa.
if they want to start living in the modern world, these africans need to radically change their culture, and to end nonsense like "voodoo", which should have been abolished 2000 years ago.
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On June 02 2011 19:13 KaiserJohan wrote:
The world outside the West is truly a living hell. I can't even begin to imagine what else exists that we don't know about.
Similar things happen in western countries daily as well.
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On June 02 2011 20:26 xarthaz wrote:
Africa WANTS slavery, africa WANTS poverty- when will you get it!
Africa acts in a manner that rejects the premises of wealth accumulation - the establishment of property rights and liquid capital markets, hence it demonstrated its preference of poverty. Lets say youre on an island. And so too is another guy. And you choose to steal and plunder each others stuff constantly, instead of trading and peaceful relations. Now how can you blame the rest of the world what these two guys are doing? It is clearly their own preference to live in poverty, so let them have it i say. Eliminate all foreign aid, and let them handle their affairs like adults. If they want poverty and misery, let them have it.
O_o; You live in a fucking fairy-tale dude !
Things are just a LITTLE bit more complicated than 2 guys on an island. You know, history and stuff and political and economical relations with the rest of the world ....
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110601/wl_africa_afp/nigeriacrimechildtrafficking_20110601143218Show nested quote +Nigerian police have raided a home allegedly being used to force teenage girls to have babies that were then offered for sale for trafficking or other purposes, authorities said on Wednesday. Full Story: + Show Spoiler +LAGOS (AFP) – Nigerian police have raided a home allegedly being used to force teenage girls to have babies that were then offered for sale for trafficking or other purposes, authorities said on Wednesday.
"We stormed the premises of the Cross Foundation in Aba three days ago following a report that pregnant girls aged between 15 and 17 are being made to make babies for the proprietor," said Bala Hassan, police commissioner for Abia state in the country's southeast.
"We rescued 32 pregnant girls and arrested the proprietor who is undergoing interrogation over allegations that he normally sells the babies to people who may use them for rituals or other purposes."
Some of the girls told police they had been offered to sell their babies for between 25,000 and 30,000 naira (192 dollars) depending on the sex of the baby.
The babies would then be sold to buyers for anything from 300,000 naira to one million naira (1,920 and 6,400 dollars) each, according to a state agency fighting human trafficking in Nigeria, the National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking in Persons (NAPTIP).
The girls were expected to be transferred to the regional NAPTIP offices in Enugu on Wednesday, the regional head Ijeoma Okoronkwo told AFP.
Hassan said the owner of the "illegal baby factory" is likely to face child abuse and human trafficking charges. Buying or selling of babies is illegal in Nigeria and can carry a 14-year jail term.
"We have so many cases going on in court right now," said Okoronkwo.
In 2008, police raids revealed an alleged network of such clinics, dubbed baby "farms" or "factories" in the local press.
Cases of child abuse and people trafficking are common in West Africa. Some children are bought from their families to for use as labour in plantations, mines, factories or as domestic help.
Others are sold into prostitution while a few are either killed or tortured in black magic rituals. NAPTIP says it has also seen a trend of illegal adoption.
"There is a problem of illict adoption and people not knowing the right way to adopt children," said Okoronkwo.
Human trafficking is ranked the third most common crime after economic fraud and drug trafficking in the country, according to UNESCO. Put simply, this is one of the most disgusting things I've ever read. It ranks up there with South African men raping toddlers because of their belief that sex with a virgin could cure AIDS. I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed? Maybe it's wrong to bring this in this direction, but: does reading an article related to sexual slavery change anyones opinion of our use of the word "rape"? Yes it's off topic, but I find it impossible not to bring up given the heated debate thats taken place here recently. Personally, I find it hard to justify the use of the word in a casual sense when it is attached (regardless of context) to such awful acts. It seems incredibly naive to me that people would try to deny the connection. Heres a similar example: would we accept it if a caster or gamer said " that game was a holocaust!". Yes, that word has other definitions than the mechanical slaughter of jews- just like "rape" is synonymous with "pillaging"- but can you deny that theres an obvious and uncomfortable anti-semetic tone to it? I personally feel that our use of the word rape has a similar anti-feminine tone. I'm interested in what difference people see between the two. Please share your thoughts on the story, Africa in general, and language. I'd really like to see a civil discussion.
I hate to sound like an ass, but Africa isn't the only place to be enslaved, the only real different is they are the only place to not recover. Then again they were pretty much forced into the "civilized" world as they were really far behind in terms of....well everything. Democracy won't work in a location in as bad shape as Africa. What they need is someone to come in, take charge, find some sort of stable income, stabilize the continent, and then leave and allow them to take control.
As far rape...
Yes I can deny all of that. I fail to see how rape has any anti-feminine tone, at all. You're aware that men can be raped too right?
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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
I'm not sure if their native populations would agree with you on that. What, between the genocides, residential schools, having their land taken from them, and centuries of discrimination...
Ever been on a reserve?
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As horrifying as this is, I can't say I'm surprised. I'm actually more surprised that this was stopped, especially by the government's military.
I don't know what is needed to stop things like this in Africa; UN intervention?
But it seems hopeless to me. My heart goes out to all the people who suffer from atrocities such as this.
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Maybe it's wrong to bring this in this direction, but: does reading an article related to sexual slavery change anyones opinion of our use of the word "rape"? Yes it's off topic, but I find it impossible not to bring up given the heated debate thats taken place here recently. Personally, I find it hard to justify the use of the word in a casual sense when it is attached (regardless of context) to such awful acts. It seems incredibly naive to me that people would try to deny the connection. Heres a similar example: would we accept it if a caster or gamer said " that game was a holocaust!". Yes, that word has other definitions than the mechanical slaughter of jews- just like "rape" is synonymous with "pillaging"- but can you deny that theres an obvious and uncomfortable anti-semetic tone to it? I personally feel that our use of the word rape has a similar anti-feminine tone. I'm interested in what difference people see between the two.
I can and will use the word "rape" however which way I want. You write some of the final exams that I write and find a better word to describe them than "rape." George Carlin said in best in that a word is just a word and the only meaning it has is the meaning YOU attach to it. If you can't deal with the meaning of some words as you understand them, then it's your problem, not mine.
The word "anti-semitic" also means anything pertaining to the Semite religions, which includes more than just Jews. This is one of the most misused terms in the English language.
Now let's get to Africa. Africa was the first continent to ever be inhabited by humans. It has seen its share of empires, wars, and colonization by greater powers, but so has every other place in the world. Do not think that Africa is the way it is because of 'other' people though. Africa is the way it is because of everyone, especially Africans.
There are many African countries that have been self-governed for a while now, and they cannot resolve their differences (religious, tribal, racial) and get along worth squat. From top to bottom Africa is full of war (Libya, Somalia, Congo, Sudan, Rwanda), murder (South Africa), mismanagement of resources (the whole continent), despicable inhuman acts (Nigeria, Rwanda, South Africa, everywhere), and corruption (Egypt, Libya, South Africa, Zimbabwe). For some reason Morocco seems to escape most of these problems.
The charitable efforts of other countries is only trying to improve the situation. The only damage it may be doing is preventing people from learning to make it on their own, which is probably the biggest problem with Africa's development. NO ONE is willing to work for anything (with regional exceptions to the rule).
So really the only way to save Africa is to allow for some hardcore policing by hopefully benevolent dictators or a powerful democratic house, and get some economy going. Without an economy Africa will constantly be the failure of the world. Basically, fascism will save Africa.
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On June 02 2011 16:54 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:51 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:49 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
this brings to mind a quote about giving a man a fish but i don't think that's the real reason these people are hungry Yea give a man a fish after you stole his resources and people and ignored genocides (slaves) A fish is toooo much to ask for we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else?
Slavery, followed by colonosation, followed by arming them so they kill each other and we can take all their minerals and gas. GG.
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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
yeah, google the stolen generation and let see whether you still think the same
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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't.
uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz
The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched.
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This is insane.
Sadly its not uncommon. Happens in India to and a lot of other countries.
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On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
The main problem with humanitarian aid services is that they may often be contra-productive in regard to much needed societal transformations. Basically, humanitarian aid can stabilize an inherently broken system almost indefinitely, thus perpetuating and even promoting the cause of poverty in a certain region. Obviously, the issue is worse in states where you could argue that an elite has taken the people as hostages, and humanitarian aid is just like ransom.
Unfortunately, there is no real way out of this, because just stopping humanitarian aid services is no real option either, at least as long as lifes are at risk.
However, it also has to be mentioned that while most humanitarian aid organizations (and development aid organizations as well) have good intentions and a meaningful agenda, there usually is little to no strategic planning that overarches the diverse efforts. This results in tragic collisions of their respective aims, and eventually a huge waste of time and resources.
The latter problem is something that could be addressed well, and there is ample historic evidence that coherent planning between agents with different agendas can foster sustainable improvements (e.g. the SA peace commissions).
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You guy's...
African's have a long history of abuse, violence, crimes which are sickening.
This does not suprise me at all.
The problem within the Continent of Africa is the vicious circle of violence and poverty.
If you have people willing to raid, destroy, take what they want. Then no one will be able to offer any longterm positive production because down the line that will be taken from them.
Black people have been in the slave market for thousands of years. Warlords would sell people without hesitating for any kind of valuables.
It boils down to in Africa. You only care about youreself.
In most of the world this is not the case, we care for eachother much more.
Slavery has been around for over 10 thousand years and probably more.
Free for all mentality.
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Oh, how the media has shown us how bad the world really is.
If we had the current media during any other time period, it would be 100x this bad. Roman Era? Medieval?
This shit is just horrible, the world is just horrible. At least there are some places that don't have things like this.
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On June 03 2011 00:28 tdynasty wrote:
You guy's...
African's have a long history of abuse, violence, crimes which are sickening.
This does not suprise me at all.
The problem within the Continent of Africa is the vicious circle of violence and poverty.
If you have people willing to raid, destroy, take what they want. Then no one will be able to offer any longterm positive production because down the line that will be taken from them.
Black people have been in the slave market for thousands of years. Warlords would sell people without hesitating for any kind of valuables.
It boils down to in Africa. You only care about youreself.
In most of the world this is not the case, we care for eachother much more.
Slavery has been around for over 10 thousand years and probably more.
Free for all mentality.
The reason they have the Free for all mentality is because they are in every way hundreds of years behind the rest of the world. Blaming Africa is a good cop out, and I bet it makes you feel good at night, but nobody is "to blame".
P.S. Try thinking outside of the box, as if you weren't born in a country that has very little social economic problems.
Edit: Also, even if this is an "African Problem". Does that make it any less of a problem? Or do you simply not care?
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Just a side note. You shouldn't be so condescending towards Africa as a continent as a whole. Yes there are a lot of issues there, but many of them occur in different countries with different problems. Just keep in mind that they're not just a bunch of backwards, hopeless, needy people, but that we just happen to hear the worst of the stories.
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On June 02 2011 17:04 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Slavery has nothing to do with it, and neither has Imperialism unless you're talking about the premature end of it. If you look at it from an African economic perspective slavery was a good trade given slaves were very often sold by Africans themselves. This has nothing to do with race it has to do with a culture that can't sustain modern life because of the innate corruption, racism, religious discrimination and violence associated with African cultures (so okay it has a little to do with Racism but not White supremacy). The worst thing the European powers did to Africa was to leave, especially at the time they did. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them govern well. The European colonies did neither, power was just handed over arbitrarily in most cases and it went to shit really fast, this is just another example of a Culture not fit for modern society.
Slavery has a LOT to do with it. What would africans or europeans selling slaves have to do with the state of the continent? It doesnt matter who did the damage, it just maters that its there. If you systematically remove the smartest and strongest young people from the entire side of a continent over a couple hundred years what do you think would happen? If America sold the strongest/smartest 10-40 year old California citizens to another country do you believe the US economy or government would still be stable after even 50-100 years? I agree that Europe leaving when they did wasn't the best choice for the African continent, but I really dont believe thats the worst that happened to them. Now there are so many corrupt government heads over there that giving out aid probably wont do much until they are removed from power (no im not suggesting we do that).
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On June 02 2011 23:13 aogmxctm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't. uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched.
But the latter list of countries I mentioned are have gotten their act together. Sure, there's millions of starving Indians and Chinese, but these countries are not stuck in a cycle of perpetual implosion.
The ethnicity argument does not really hold true either. Malaysia has a very varied mix of races, and although there have been tensions, the state has made some real progress and is now an NIC.
I don't really think it's an issue of how much they've been exploited. It's more of the fact that nothing has been accomplished, or is likely to be accomplished in Africa for a long time. The people have a problem.
It seems like you have to beat a billion bucks of aid into them, not just simply hand it over. Maybe re-colonization by a first world nation is better than independence because at least you will not simply see the money disappear. Africans just can't rule themselves.
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lol.
Africa isn't poor because Africans don't try.
Africa is poor because WTO guidelines are designed specifically to keep Ethiopian coffee farmers (one example) growing as many coffee beans as they can for prices that barely allow them to survive.
Africa is poor because the British, French, Belgians, and Portuguese raped and pillaged the continent for decades. Let's take the Belgian Congo as an example, half the population died under Belgian rule thanks to the rubber trade, and even in post-independence periods foreign corporations like Shell in the Niger River Delta leave ecological and humanitarian disasters that go unnoticed and ignored.
Africa is poor because colonizing powers brutally created ethnic class divisions out of nowhere (Tutsi, Hutu) in order to more effectively control the natives, leaving severe ethic strife in central-west Africa that paralyzes Congo, Rwanda, Uganda, to this day.
Africa is poor and starving because Europeans like eating Nile Perch at nice restaurants at the expense of starving Africans suffering from a drought two fucking miles from the border.
Africa is poor because little friendly Belgium got pissed at her former colony being uppity, so it instigated a rebellion in Katanga and executed the democratically elected leader of that country, plunging the DRC into decades of military dictatorship.
Many African nations are weak shells of government attempting to provide basic services to populations that were arbitrarily divided with no consideration for nationality, geography, culture, or language. Africa doesn't need charity, it needs to stop getting fucked over when American and European trade representatives wag their fingers about African governments subsidizing their agriculture, then turn around and help their own farmers domestically. The Chinese need to stop protecting their genocidal little bitch of a government in Khartoum, and the Americans need to start pushing for reform in Nigeria. The French would do well to kindly fuck off with neo-imperialist tendencies and maybe, just maybe, not do something as stupid as prolonging genocide in Rwanda with a "humanitarian intervention".
And now people wonder why African governments are largely corrupt and undemocratic.
On June 03 2011 01:03 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 23:13 aogmxctm wrote:On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine.
It's just an African problem, period. Foreign exploitation may have a small part, but most of the independent countries have gotten exactly what they wanted - independence, and they've gone to shit.
You have countries that have been nuked twice and a devastated post war economy with scarce natural resources, yet with foreign aid they were able become the worlds #2 economy just about 30 years later. And then a country which fought a bloody war and had their capital destroyed, and yet is now the world's leading esports hub. Countries that have been raped and plundered in the 19th century, and yet has now has the world's second largest GNP with much greater potential for growth.
And then you have Africa.
Western powers do not exploit Africa selectively. They have exploited Asia too. They'd exploit anything they can get, including space monkeys, if they could. That's just human nature. Chinese and Indian workers are still being exploited by the truckloads, but the country is on the whole progressing. Africa just isn't. Stop making it seem like Africa is the ugly product of the entire industralised world, because it isn't. uhh The USA and Canada was treated entirely differently as they were an offshoot of European powers. I also assume you've never been to South Africa. India is fine? lets just ignore the massive amounts of child labor and brutal living conditions for the vast amounts of people living in extreme poverty zzzzz The reason why colonisation was so brutal in the African nations is due to the fact that the colonisers created roles and power based on ethnic groups. This is a phenomenon which does not and cannot occur in more homogeneous societies like Hong Kong etc. Everyone who has studied social conflict knows just how devastating and long lasting ethnic conflicts can be. In addition, the degree to which the African colonies were exploited, in terms of resources and human capital, is unmatched. But the latter list of countries I mentioned are have gotten their act together. Sure, there's millions of starving Indians and Chinese, but these countries are not stuck in a cycle of perpetual implosion. The ethnicity argument does not really hold true either. Malaysia has a very varied mix of races, and although there have been tensions, the state has made some real progress and is now an NIC. I don't really think it's an issue of how much they've been exploited. It's more of the fact that nothing has been accomplished, or is likely to be accomplished in Africa for a long time. The people have a problem. It seems like you have to beat a billion bucks of aid into them, not just simply hand it over. Maybe re-colonization by a first world nation is better than independence because at least you will not simply see the money disappear. Africans just can't rule themselves.
Is it possible to be more ignorant than this, or are you really just trying to look like a fool?
India was never brutalized to the extent Africa was.
China was never brutalized to the extent Africa was, neither was Malaysia.
"Africans just can't rule themselves"... what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
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You guys know this happens in several other countries right?
Turning this discussion to 'what's wrong with Africa?' is somewhat misguided.
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The fact that some of you are unintelligent to the point of claiming it's all of Africa and not specific countries is very telling. There is nothing wrong with Africa. There is something wrong with specific parts of specific countries. Don't be ignorant.
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On June 03 2011 01:17 Ace wrote:
The fact that some of you are unintelligent to the point of claiming it's all of Africa and not specific countries is very telling. There is nothing wrong with Africa. There is something wrong with specific parts of specific countries. Don't be ignorant.
Generalizations are useful to point out systemic issues such as poverty and corruption. But yes, "Africa" as a term can be misleading.
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On June 02 2011 20:51 shadymmj wrote:
Let's take a look at other colonies...
USA, Australia, South Africa, Cyprus, New Zealand, Canada...these countries arent doing badly, are they?
Okay, how about colonies with other races who were being exploited, then?
Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Malaysia...nope, still fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism
Number of primarily settler colonies that are first world countries today: every single one of them
Number of primarily exploited colonies that are third world countries today: every single one of them
Coincidence? No, Africa was just exploited more and settled less than other colonies. Guess what, they're more screwed up then the others. Very straight-forward.
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Thats a pretty fucked up situation.. but trying to pass it off as if its the rest of the worlds fault for what some sick piece of shits do makes no sense to me. Nigeria is their own country with their own problems. If the Nigerian people will not stand up against their corruption, then who are we to step in.
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wow
guys like that must be mad or something
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On June 03 2011 01:17 Ace wrote:There is nothing wrong with Africa.
please elaborate, i'd like to see that.
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Comparing the state of Nigeria or other African countries to the USA is quite misleading. It's slightly more appropriate to compare the colonial treatment of native Africans to those folks who happened to be here in the US when the settlers arrived. Who were they again?
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This is pretty fucked up, I mean get that dudes roladex! Babies being sold for black magic rituals and slavery! 14 years in a Nigerian prison almost seems light until I saw a documentary about African prisons, that dude is going to get raped and killed in there if some people find that out.
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Well got my share of todays disturbing news from around the world.
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Africa was build by the colonization... What was Subsaharan Africa in 1850 ? Was is less backward than it is now ?
Could you please indicate your sources on that ?
Europeans didn't disposess Africa of any natural ressources, Africa never thought at exploiting them... They never managed to build a mine and organize a structure to marchandize them...
Europeans created the demand of Uranium, not Nigerians.
Europeans invented the structure to exploit Uranium, not Nigerians.
And the locals are quite happy to be hired by oh so oppressive colonizers.
The French would do well to kindly fuck off with neo-imperialist tendencies and maybe, just maybe, not do something as stupid as prolonging genocide in Rwanda with a "humanitarian intervention".
What the fuck is that supposed to mean, how are the French responsible for the Rwanda genocide... Ethnic division and ethnic cleansing, war between tribes is what Africa has been about for millenia, and it is still happening in some area ...
Africans are the one choosing to kill each other, it isn't the Chinese government who is pushing the janjawid to rape and kill in Darfur, but Arab nationalists.
What you need to accept is that if it wasn't for the Europeans the Maghreb would have no electricity and a large portion of the Subsaharan Africa would still live in muds.
Vaccination, technologies, various infrastructures such as schools and hospitals,... this is the positive side of colonization.
Without the Western and particulary the American aid, all these countries would starve.
If you truely believe that Africa was some kind of fairy tale before the colonization and that they would have joyfully stick to their culture and subsistence farming without us, then there's nothing I can do for you.
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There's no denying that Africa was exploited longer than any other colony, but that's simply glossing over what other countries have been through, including the post opium war division and plundering of China etc.
Excuse me HK, Singapore and Malaysia were primarily "exploited" as you would term instead of being settler colonies, there is just no arguing this.
Africa (note, I use this as a generalised term of course out of convenience - excluding egypt and so on) has achieved almost nothing pre-colonisation and nothing post-colonisation despite their great natural wealth. You look at their situation prior to the imperialist boom, and see if anything was actually going on in Africa. How advanced Africa was, or if they made any sort of contribution to the world. Have you actually heard anything about non-Islamic influenced African civilization other than the Egyptians? What, the Malis?
Ask yourself this - was Africa in great shape before mass colonisation?
It goes to show they can't rule themselves and make progress.
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On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth.
Japan has had both Imperialism, AND slavery. Why are they not a third world country like some African nations?
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On June 03 2011 02:10 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Japan has had both Imperialism, AND slavery. Why are they not a third world country like some African nations?
We don't take kindly to people applying logic when we are busy trying to pretend that Africa was the utopia that the white man stole from us.
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On June 03 2011 02:13 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:10 RoosterSamurai wrote:On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Japan has had both Imperialism, AND slavery. Why are they not a third world country like some African nations? We don't take kindly to people applying logic when we are busy trying to pretend that Africa was the utopia that the white man stole from us.
Oh ok sorry. I'll just leave, then.
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Sigh....
So many uninformed and uneducated people in this thread, its super sad to say the least.
People need to understand that all this "Imperialism was like waaaay back" or "lol slavery was like a thousand years ago get over yourself" comments are pure bullshit on way too many levels.
A whole great deal of what's happening in a lot of African countries has a lot more to do with "us, the westerners" than a lot of people here seem to think (or at least would like to think). Now I could go in to great detail about outsourcing giant debt, Euro and American farm aid or many other things that contribute to starving a continent a whole lot more than people realize, but for now i will just say that YES we are causing (a great deal of it) the problem and YES a lot of the aid IS doing good (in most cases, but more on this if you ask) and to end it off we COULD do a lot more help by stopping to do a whole lot of bad.
Now, there are countries in Africa that do fairly well, and are better off than most countries, and so this post is not really to make Africa seem like an overall terrible place (there are lots of nice people and prosperous places).
But we still need to look to places like Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Somalia ect. and think to ourselves: Why is this going on! Genocide? Corruption? Civil war? Starvation? I mean these seem like pretty internal issues right? We couldn't possibly have anything to with that right? As a matter of sad fact we can, and we do. A prime example is the Farm aid that the EU and US give to their own farmers to keep a dying business alive, now the deal is that a farmer get more money the more he produces, (even if he cant sell his goods) and so this leads in a lot of cases to overproduction, then all of these excess goods are being send and sold to places like Africa. Now this could be seen as a good thing, as they end up selling extremely cheap goods to poor people, but as a matter of fact is extremely hurtful. Because the local production cant keep up, and they cant compete on prices, they end up without work, thus creating more poverty and more need for cheap goods. Now if the farmers didn't get the aid, it would not pay to sell their goods for the same prices, and locals could compete in a fair environment. Instead they cant, and because of import limitations in US and EU, they (African production companies) furthermore have a extremely hard time exporting stuff, thus putting them in a even harder spot to deal with poverty.
I could go on and on about stuff we could stop doing, and by doing so helping Africa as a continent. However i will stop now and just say that the good old TIA doesn't make much sense any more, and WE as a community CAN and SHOULD help struggling countries with education, health care and business. But before we can do this to a point where it generates success, we need first to look inwards and see where we are hurting the situation and then back off, (if we want to, which i doubt governments want, as they are making a shit ton on Africa).
Just my 2 cent -
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On June 02 2011 20:41 necroticah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:31 Mangemongen wrote:On June 02 2011 20:19 BlackFlag wrote:
Imperialism still exists today, it's just not quite as "in-your-face" as in the 19th century. Look at Shell and Nigeria.
Also, the "foreign aid" South-Sahara Africa got was one of the reasons the food market broke down and local farmers went out of business. Overfishing of their coasts was another nail for the coffin (one of the reasons for the rise of piracy in Somalia).
Many of the African problems are "left-overs" from European colonialism. All their major problems are left-overs from colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, call it what you want. Thing is, they are still getting just as fucked as they were hundreds of years ago. The world is upside down and completely fucked up. Honestly, I wish it were as easy as "look, we got fucked a few years ago, let's try to fix all that." Unfortunately, Africa is not capable of living a Western World Way. People in top spots of each country had the same education as other top people in other countries, do not, for one minute believe that the president of South Africa / Nigeria, even Sudan had no education. These are educated people, it's the mentality of "Hell, I suffered and passed, why can't they?" that's plagueing this continent. Also, too many people here have strong beliefs that their way is the right way, and they are sure as hell ready to fight for it.
Sorry, but you cannot be seriously saying the president of South Africa has the same education as any other state leader. He grew up as a goat-herder and never formally attended school. The reason he got elected, and one of the main reasons democracy fails in Africa (as well as elsewhere) is that people vote for whoever they think is most like them rather than who is best for the job.
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On June 02 2011 20:08 DisaFear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 19:58 Incognoto wrote:
It's reading stuff like this that makes you realise how incredibly lucky people who live in developed countries are. Of course most people don't realise just how lucky they are. Absolutely. Time and time again, I see 3/4 plates full of food just dumped into bins, etc It is just pure sickening. Good society? Ha
I dont get why this comes up should we stuff ourselves when we are not hungry because Africans dont have food?
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wow what is wrong with these people? who could treat other human beings that way on a daily basis
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On June 03 2011 02:10 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Japan has had both Imperialism, AND slavery. Why are they not a third world country like some African nations?
Uh.... this is pretty blatantly inaccurate, as what you're saying is that because Japan took slaves and were imperialistic they should thus be like Africa. Japan has never (ever) been subject to Africa-levels of either, especially not simultaneously, and ESPECIALLY not since it has been known as Japan.
So, unless I'm just too tired and not reading the sarcasm in this, here's what I got: I'm not going to sustain an argument with you about it, because this whole thread is a god damned factory for misinformation and stupidity and reading 3 pages of it has caused brain to leak out my ears, so I'm sure I won't even convince you how ridiculous what you just posted is, despite the fact that I know for certain far more than you about this topic. But I'll tell you this; even implying that Japan had remotely similar conditions to Africa, at pretty much any time in history (perhaps during the Jurassic they were somewhat similar socioeconomically) is appallingly ignorant.
If you are being sarcastic, and I hope to holy Buddha you are, then well played.
More importantly, why the FUCK is a thread about a baby factory now a thread about imperialism? Focus people!
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On June 03 2011 02:17 TWIX_Heaven wrote:
Sigh....
So many uninformed and uneducated people in this thread, its super sad to say the least.
People need to understand that all this "Imperialism was like waaaay back" or "lol slavery was like a thousand years ago get over yourself" comments are pure bullshit on way too many levels.
A whole great deal of what's happening in a lot of African countries has a lot more to do with "us, the westerners" than a lot of people here seem to think (or at least would like to think). Now I could go in to great detail about outsourcing giant debt, Euro and American farm aid or many other things that contribute to starving a continent a whole lot more than people realize, but for now i will just say that YES we are causing (a great deal of it) the problem and YES a lot of the aid IS doing good (in most cases, but more on this if you ask) and to end it off we COULD do a lot more help by stopping to do a whole lot of bad.
Now, there are countries in Africa that do fairly well, and are better off than most countries, and so this post is not really to make Africa seem like an overall terrible place (there are lots of nice people and prosperous places).
But we still need to look to places like Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Somalia ect. and think to ourselves: Why is this going on! Genocide? Corruption? Civil war? Starvation? I mean these seem like pretty internal issues right? We couldn't possibly have anything to with that right? As a matter of sad fact we can, and we do. A prime example is the Farm aid that the EU and US give to their own farmers to keep a dying business alive, now the deal is that a farmer get more money the more he produces, (even if he cant sell his goods) and so this leads in a lot of cases to overproduction, then all of these excess goods are being send and sold to places like Africa. Now this could be seen as a good thing, as they end up selling extremely cheap goods to poor people, but as a matter of fact is extremely hurtful. Because the local production cant keep up, and they cant compete on prices, they end up without work, thus creating more poverty and more need for cheap goods. Now if the farmers didn't get the aid, it would not pay to sell their goods for the same prices, and locals could compete in a fair environment. Instead they cant, and because of import limitations in US and EU, they (African production companies) furthermore have a extremely hard time exporting stuff, thus putting them in a even harder spot to deal with poverty.
I could go on and on about stuff we could stop doing, and by doing so helping Africa as a continent. However i will stop now and just say that the good old TIA doesn't make much sense any more, and WE as a community CAN and SHOULD help struggling countries with education, health care and business. But before we can do this to a point where it generates success, we need first to look inwards and see where we are hurting the situation and then back off, (if we want to, which i doubt governments want, as they are making a shit ton on Africa).
Just my 2 cent -
So let me get this straight, you think that the current aid which is already gigantic is not enough and that we should do more.
You think that all these Western association, and that the fact that the Europeans working class is currently financially sustaining Africa, repaying all their debts, is not enough but that "we" should do more, and furthermore, not take any advantage from the situation ?
Sir, in what world are you living ? Which European leader would accept to dilapidate the wealth of its indebted nation to volunteerely help the fishers in Zimbabwe ? Not to mention that most of this money is going to be intercepted by corrupted leaders and so on.
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On June 03 2011 02:05 shadymmj wrote:
There's no denying that Africa was exploited longer than any other colony, but that's simply glossing over what other countries have been through, including the post opium war division and plundering of China etc.
Excuse me HK, Singapore and Malaysia were primarily "exploited" as you would term instead of being settler colonies, there is just no arguing this.
No
Just No
Singapore and Malaysia was not exploited by the British AT ALL
Singaporean and Malaysian still think that British as their 'old master' till this day since British have been very nice to the population and give them everything including INDEPENDENCE
Indonesia just south of them IS exploited by the Dutch and have to fought almost 2 decades of war until finally gain its independence and is still a fuck up mess till this day with ripe corruption, high poverty level and higher than average crime rate in the region
please stop talking about something you have no idea about
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That's just fucked up. And what's this about raping toddlers to get rid of AIDS? Seriously? Educate these people already.
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Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? And what is ripe corruption?
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We don't take kindly to people applying logic when we are busy trying to pretend that Africa was the utopia that the white man stole from us.
Calling that a logical comparison is most likely the single most stupid thing I have heard in half a year or so. Damn..... But in a way I guess we all own the right to such ignorance.
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On June 03 2011 02:31 orn wrote:
That's just fucked up. And what's this about raping toddlers to get rid of AIDS? Seriously? Educate these people already.
If you've got AIDS, you'll believe anything to get rid of it since it'll kill you. Possibly the most educated lose their minds over it.
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Hassan said the owner of the "illegal baby factory" is likely to face child abuse and human trafficking charges.
"illegal baby factory" Makes it sound to me like there are legal ones
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On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
I guess if the Mongols didn't run rampant around the world for a while most people would have no idea about effective horseback artillery and crude siege weapons, thereby stalling the development of Europe for 3,000 years
/sarcasm
Your stupidity is truly amazing
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On June 03 2011 02:40 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now. I guess if the Mongols didn't run rampant around the world for a while most people would have no idea about effective horseback artillery and crude siege weapons, thereby stalling the development of Europe for 3,000 years /sarcasm Your stupidity is truly amazing
And how is that relevant to modern civilization again...?
I would say the same of you, by the way.
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On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? And what is ripe corruption?
compared to the way Dutch shit on Indonesia ?
yeah, British give these two countries preferential treatment in the whole colonization 'game'
and its ripe with corruption
sorry if my Asian grammar is not good enough for you westerner
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On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game?
Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about.
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I wish this was the worst thing that happens in Africa 
Unfortunately every day something worse comes along.
And I have little doubt things similar to this happen all across the world, even in America.
On June 03 2011 02:44 sandyph wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? And what is ripe corruption? compared to the way Dutch shit on Indonesia ? yeah, British give these two countries preferential treatment in the whole colonization ' game' and its ripe with corruption sorry if my Asian grammar is not good enough for you westerner
That was the sickest sneak attack comeback I've ever seen.
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On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about.
Borders have been drawn right through population centers since the dawn of man. You think the Chinese emperor gave a fuck if some mongolian horde had suddenly become a part of his nation?
You think the Muslim caliphate gave a damn?
Maybe the Roman empire gave a fuck?
Leaders make borders and never in history has there been much attention to who gets to live on what side, but there has always been plenty of attention as to wich side of the border would have a mountain filled with iron.
But for some strange reason the people in Africa couldn't cope with this and reacted in a fit of uncontrollable self-destructive rage that is still going on today.
Honestly there is only so long you can go on with carying a grudge and still be taken seriously. This border nonesense has been repeated often enough and has no grounding in reality. Another one of those false truths wich is accepted on no other basis then "sounds reasonable".
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On June 03 2011 02:30 TeWy wrote:
So let me get this straight, you think that the current aid which is already gigantic is not enough and that we should do more.
You think that all these Western association, and that the fact that the Europeans working class is currently financially sustaining Africa, repaying all their debts, is not enough but that "we" should do more, and furthermore, not take any advantage from the situation ?
Sir, in what world are you living ? Which European leader would accept to dilapidate the wealth of its indebted nation to volunteerely help the fishers in Zimbabwe ? Not to mention that most of this money is going to be intercepted by corrupted leaders and so on.
I never mentioned financial aid, I merely said aid. A lot of stuff is going on that helps the situation, like building schools and hospitals, giving free medicin and so on, and this has to happen more.
I agree that financial aid only is the wrong way to go about it, and i furthermore explained that there are things we could STOP doing, that in effect would help African nations, but i guess you didnt read that part.
Also your comment about repaying their debts is quite funny, as since, companies and governments have been instilling a whole lot of debt INTO African nations, but I guess you don't know about that either. It genuinely seems like you don't know a whole lot about this stuff, so ill let you off the hook, but please, read what I am saying.
The ill nations of Africa was exploited and suffered on many levels during and after colonization and imperialism, this is a fact. That we still this day cause problems for many African nations is a fact and to think otherwise is living in a bubble, sorry to say.
However a lot of people are doing a good job trying to right the ongoing wrongs of many people in Africa and we need to support that.
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Stop the aid, it has done way more ill than good. I just wrote a paper about it so cba to explain my points, but read Dambisa Moyos book "Dead Aid" and you will get the hang of it. Only humanitarian aid should exist, development aid has to be removed or drastically changed.
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Some African nations were never colonized, and they're still doing pretty bad. Africa needs to start helping themselves before we can help them. They also need to stop blaming others, even if it is true (which i dont believe it is) it wont help them.
As it is now Africa doesnt want to change. Many leaders just dont care about it and therefore handing them money wont do anything. Until Africa is ready, no amount of money will help them.
This is a terrible story
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On June 03 2011 02:40 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now. I guess if the Mongols didn't run rampant around the world for a while most people would have no idea about effective horseback artillery and crude siege weapons, thereby stalling the development of Europe for 3,000 years
/sarcasm Your stupidity is truly amazing
You'd be suprised how advanced the mongols were when Europe was still a shit hole after the fall of Rome (which it was). Not being sarcastic Europeans should probably be thanking Muslims (not Mongols) for helping them develop out of that mess. And yes, if Muslims hadn't had a "Jihad" the rest of the world might actually be farther behind than it really is. Even thought most people only know Jihad as a "holy war". Why do people have to take such opposite sides and not see that the answer may be in the middle? Africa has had problems for a long time, (slavery has almost always been apart of their culture) some people are saying that, no need to get offended by it (especially since its the truth. The only people that can do anything about it are the people living their as well.
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On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about.
yeah surely Africa was the pinnacle of civilisation prior to the border rearrangements
I'm not arguing that colonisation did not create some problems, of course they did. What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners.
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On June 03 2011 02:50 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about. Borders have been drawn right through population centers since the dawn of man. You think the Chinese emperor gave a fuck if some mongolian horde had suddenly become a part of his nation? You think the Muslim caliphate gave a damn? Maybe the Roman empire gave a fuck? Leaders make borders and never in history has there been much attention to who gets to live on what side, but there has always been plenty of attention as to wich side of the border would have a mountain filled with iron. But for some strange reason the people in Africa couldn't cope with this and reacted in a fit of uncontrollable self-destructive rage that is still going on today. Honestly there is only so long you can go on with carying a grudge and still be taken seriously. This border nonesense has been repeated often enough and has no grounding in reality. Another one of those false truths wich is accepted on no other basis then "sounds reasonable".
The borders were drawn by other countries, not native leaders. Come on, think about this for more than 5 seconds.
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Ace I disagree with your post. Colonialism ended a long enough time ago and the AU and many other multinational political organisations have had the opportunity to redraw borders but most African wars remain internal. I'm open to clarification on a subject that I admittedly don't know a tremendous amount about.
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On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about. yeah surely Africa was the pinnacle of civilisation prior to the border rearrangements I'm not arguing that colonisation did not create some problems, of course they did. What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners.
You are going to want to stop posting before you embarass yourself further.
Yes, europeans brought "power grids" to Africa. And Africa also had large, advanced empires and kingdoms strong enough to be major bargaining powers against European military might until the advent of machine guns.
The root of Africa's current problems is the legacy of colonialism combined with global policies that condemn much of the continent to abject poverty.
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This is disgusting... I can't believe that stuff like this still happens. Even more disgusting is that they are selling the babies to black magicians for torture and sacrifice. Ugh...
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On June 03 2011 03:13 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about. yeah surely Africa was the pinnacle of civilisation prior to the border rearrangements I'm not arguing that colonisation did not create some problems, of course they did. What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You are going to want to stop posting before you embarass yourself further. Yes, europeans brought "power grids" to Africa. And Africa also had large, advanced empires and kingdoms strong enough to be major bargaining powers against European military might until the advent of machine guns. The root of Africa's current problems is the legacy of colonialism combined with global policies that condemn much of the continent to abject poverty.
Wait, what? Which internally generated African empire has ever challenged Europe?
And let's not forget that about thirty generations ago all our European ancestors were sacrificing humans. This is a terrible thing but it's not like Africans or African nations have a monopoly on doing awful stuff. Hopefully the world advances sufficiently that problems like this will become far less common all around the world.
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On June 03 2011 02:27 KingVietKong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:10 RoosterSamurai wrote:On June 02 2011 16:55 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:53 ondik wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
Hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rold has caused it? What does this mean? African countries recieved and are recieving much more humanitarian aid than any cuontry in the world. Amount of money which was basicly given to Africa for free is incredible and as we can see, almost all of it went to waste. Africa needs help, but definitely not the kind of help it's been recieving for years. And most definitely not from some world government. Because the blatant inequality in wealth distribution of the world is caused by racial superiority right? Blacks are clearly innately inferior which is why they are poor and don't deserve foreign aids. Imperialism didn't exist at all. we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else? We study history for a reason. The impact of slavery and imperialism has lasting impacts which is evident by today's standing in wealth. Japan has had both Imperialism, AND slavery. Why are they not a third world country like some African nations? Uh.... this is pretty blatantly inaccurate, as what you're saying is that because Japan took slaves and were imperialistic they should thus be like Africa. Japan has never (ever) been subject to Africa-levels of either, especially not simultaneously, and ESPECIALLY not since it has been known as Japan. So, unless I'm just too tired and not reading the sarcasm in this, here's what I got: I'm not going to sustain an argument with you about it, because this whole thread is a god damned factory for misinformation and stupidity and reading 3 pages of it has caused brain to leak out my ears, so I'm sure I won't even convince you how ridiculous what you just posted is, despite the fact that I know for certain far more than you about this topic. But I'll tell you this; even implying that Japan had remotely similar conditions to Africa, at pretty much any time in history (perhaps during the Jurassic they were somewhat similar socioeconomically) is appallingly ignorant. If you are being sarcastic, and I hope to holy Buddha you are, then well played. More importantly, why the FUCK is a thread about a baby factory now a thread about imperialism? Focus people!
Er.....Go look up the Tokugawa shogunate. Or any other shogunate, for that matter. Families were enslaved to other families for generations. Please learn what you're talking about before making such a big post...Or any post at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Japan
Apology incoming?
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Well, I just died alittle inside reading the op and story.
Sad to say that it happens, at least the government there is trying to do some good.
I wonder...interogating? Normally they say questioning. I do hope they do something very painful to him to get answers.
/leave thread.
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On June 02 2011 22:05 ChApFoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 20:26 xarthaz wrote:
Africa WANTS slavery, africa WANTS poverty- when will you get it!
Africa acts in a manner that rejects the premises of wealth accumulation - the establishment of property rights and liquid capital markets, hence it demonstrated its preference of poverty. Lets say youre on an island. And so too is another guy. And you choose to steal and plunder each others stuff constantly, instead of trading and peaceful relations. Now how can you blame the rest of the world what these two guys are doing? It is clearly their own preference to live in poverty, so let them have it i say. Eliminate all foreign aid, and let them handle their affairs like adults. If they want poverty and misery, let them have it. O_o; You live in a fucking fairy-tale dude ! Things are just a LITTLE bit more complicated than 2 guys on an island. You know, history and stuff and political and economical relations with the rest of the world ....
All interpersonal relations are a subset of what i described. The dichotomies of choice that must be made remain the same. Hence, my conclusions are without exception correct in the real life, and the argument follows - that the unpleasant truth of african preferences and ideals, that of Poverty and Slavery, are correct.
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On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation:
A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today
B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today
Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen.
C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries
D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others.
(C and D) > B > A
It's very subjective to try to say who is "to blame" of why africa is less developed than the rest of the world. But you can't say africa wouldn't be in a much better shape today if the inevitable foreign contact wasn't as destructive and exploitive as it was. Africa was the most exploited region of the world and as a result it's the least developed place of the world. It's very simple.
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As for the actual story, theres not much I can say, that's one of the most disgusting and awful things I have ever heard.
The caster thing though, casters have different standards for what they will and will not say to describe a situation. Some of the more popular casters do use the word rape, however it's obviously not meant to be sexist in any way whatsoever. And unless you're really sensitive to that kind of thing, I think you should be able to look past it and realize that online the word has a different meaning, so to say. I think more violent descriptions of crushing defeats have been used before by casters, however they're not sexually or racially oriented, so people see no relevance in modern society and accept it for what it is; A harmless joke that offends nobody but the (in my opinion) overly sensitive.
I do want to recall an event where HDstarcraft referenced WW2 to describe a defeat, and he got a LOT of flack for it by people in his comments and on his channel (note, he didn't mention jews or the holocaust, it was something about the armies of nazi germany and the USA). I would say this is an overreaction, and especially since the WW2 reference was harmless in nature, people were kind of having a knee-jerk reaction at the fact that he mentioned WW2. I don't know really, personally i'm not offended by much and can take a lot of offensive jokes, recognizing that it's just comedy that can harm no one. However I could understand people being mad at controversial metaphors and references ("too soon?").
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On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A It's very subjective to try to say who is "to blame" of why africa is less developed than the rest of the world. But you can't say africa wouldn't be in a much better shape today if the inevitable foreign contact wasn't as destructive and exploitive as it was. Africa was the most exploited region of the world and as a result it's the least developed place of the world. It's very simple.
B) Nearly every civilization ever has been exploited by another, had Africa been advancing like the rest of the world they would have been fine by now. However they weren't, so they are in the shape they are in. Is it their fault? No not really, but is it everyone else's fault for treating them the same way they treated the other civilizations?
C) Europe only traded with those countries because it was easier than taking their resources by force. In Africa's case it was easier to take things by force, hence they did so.
D) Settling only works when they gain control over the area, kinda hard when the current inhabitants have large numbers and are not all too friendly. Not to mention settling has a purpose, people don't just up and move to a new place for the hell of it, why send a bunch of people to a place that already has a bunch of people? Why not simply take advantage of those current people and exploit them for their resources? Also Australia was originally a prison, not a colony.
Hate to say it, but it's not a kind world, it never has been. Africa is in it's shape because they couldn't keep up, it's fine to feel sorry for them, but to shoulder the blame to everyone else is just stupid.
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On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A It's very subjective to try to say who is "to blame" of why africa is less developed than the rest of the world. But you can't say africa wouldn't be in a much better shape today if the inevitable foreign contact wasn't as destructive and exploitive as it was. Africa was the most exploited region of the world and as a result it's the least developed place of the world. It's very simple. Bro, dont bring this most exploited thing here. The natives of my country served as slaves/serfs to the germans and russians for the past 700 years. After that came the soviet regime which completely dismantled the capital structure necessary for profitable operation. It was tough work, yet despite these misfortunes, , after the collapse of USSR,in 20 years of free market capitalism, we have managed to come from a shit hole to a borderline-first world country with 20k gdp per capita.
You see, the point of this is the conditions of development. it is up to the people to choose whether they want the conditions of wealth accumulation or they dont. The africans have shown that they dont, hence they have DEMONSTRATED their aptitude toward SLAVERY and POVERTY.
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On June 03 2011 04:01 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A It's very subjective to try to say who is "to blame" of why africa is less developed than the rest of the world. But you can't say africa wouldn't be in a much better shape today if the inevitable foreign contact wasn't as destructive and exploitive as it was. Africa was the most exploited region of the world and as a result it's the least developed place of the world. It's very simple. C) Europe only traded with those countries because it was easier than taking their resources by force. In Africa's case it was easier to take things by force, hence they did so. D) Settling only works when they gain control over the area, kinda hard when the current inhabitants have large numbers and are not all too friendly. Not to mention settling has a purpose, people don't just up and move to a new place for the hell of it, why send a bunch of people to a place that already has a bunch of people? Why not simply take advantage of those current people and exploit them for their resources? Also Australia was originally a prison, not a colony. ....so? What is the point of you have posted that? I'm not arguing at any point why europeans chose to do what they did or not. I'm talking about the effects of what they actually did.
On June 03 2011 04:02 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A It's very subjective to try to say who is "to blame" of why africa is less developed than the rest of the world. But you can't say africa wouldn't be in a much better shape today if the inevitable foreign contact wasn't as destructive and exploitive as it was. Africa was the most exploited region of the world and as a result it's the least developed place of the world. It's very simple. You see, the point of this is the conditions of development. it is up to the people to choose whether they want the conditions of wealth accumulation or they dont. The africans have shown that they dont, hence they have DEMONSTRATED their aptitude toward SLAVERY and POVERTY. O.O Ohhhkeeey...?
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On June 02 2011 17:07 Telcontar wrote:
Urgh. This is so disgusting....... My soul just died a little.
I nearly threw up..
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This discussion shows one of the problems why these things happens over and over. All people are concerned about the ones that sell the babys and the women. Nearly noone is concerned about the people who buy them. Thats the real problem. For every perversion you could make money with their needs to be someone who actually buys it.
Its not really about the baby sellers , ofc im not defending them, but theyre just making money. What should concerne everyone way more is why the hell people are buying babys/women/slaves whatever and do all kinds of shit to them.
Its like when people are talking about capitalism. Its easy to blame the government and the big fat company bosses who treat their employees bad, but theyre just there because everyone buys their products.
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The Human Race never fails to disappoint.
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Where's Liam Neeson when you need him?
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Buying or selling of babies is illegal in Nigeria and can carry a 14-year jail term.
WTF? i'd have him hanged, and he could still thank me for going easy on him, that crap i ve just read is disgusting
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This makes me both sick and so angry, how can people have such a callous disregard for life.
Also this economic discussion is pretty distasteful. To imply that the ordinary people in Africa are poor because they want to be poor, or don't work hard enough is stupid. Countries need resources to make money. In Africa these resources are controlled by corrupt businessmen, some African and some Western. You also can't compare it to any other countries experience, because even in Russia post Tsar at least they'd had a revolution.
We should continue to send aid, and up the amount of aid that we send, but I fear that the only way things can improve will be after long revolutions where the people take the natural resources back for themselves. I don't even know if that will be enough because I'm not sure the poorer African countries have enough resources for their huge populations.
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the ignorance in some of these posts is upsetting. even more so then the reality of this post (
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Africa's a real tough moral issue. I'm not even sure what I would do if I were in charge of fixing it somehow. It seems like the main dilemma is the aid going mostly to food aid instead of infrastructure aid.
So you send a ton of food aid to Africa, and that saves people's lives, which is great. But then they have a ton of kids, and nothing actually got fixed in the country because the infrastructure is as shitty as ever, so now there are even more hungry people. So you send even more food aid and then those people survive and grow up and have even more kids, and now there are even MORE hungry people...and you can see this can't go on forever, eventually there will be a breaking point where the rest of the world can't even produce enough food to send there.
I heard that over 90% of the aid we send is food aid, and less than 10% is infrastructure aid. Africa will never be self-sufficient if their population keeps exploding so rapidly (enabled by food aid), but at the same time, is it ever okay to just let people starve to death for the sake of future generations? Would you be able to personally withhold food from a starving African kid if one was right in front of you? I wouldn't be able to. It's a really, really tough moral dilemma. The other option is of course sterilization, but that also has extremely unsavory moral implications.
Frankly this is one of those things where I'm happy that I don't have to be the one to make decisions about it.
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On June 03 2011 03:00 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:50 zalz wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 Judicator wrote:On June 03 2011 02:34 shadymmj wrote:
Because people keep pushing the blame to westerners, thinking that all colonisation did was turn Africa into chaos - allow me to say that if no foreign man and none of his inventions had ever stepped into central/southern africa, maybe they would be finding out how to build a power grid just about now.
If Malaysia and Singapore were not colonised for the purpose of, well, let's not call it exploitation, but basically in British interests, then what the heck were they doing there in the first place? I'm not denying that the British did a great job with those countries - colonisation was good! But the fact is that Malaysia was a great source of rubber and Singapore had a great strategic location to pitch a trading port there.
You mean to tell me that the British gave these two countries preferential treatment in the colonisation game? Sigh, get over your paper-thin arguments and comparisons; they're hardly relevant. The reason why Europeans are being blamed is simply because of the fact that they drew the damn borders. If you think that is somehow insignificant compared to the technological/infrastructural contributions...well...you really don't know what you are talking about. Borders have been drawn right through population centers since the dawn of man. You think the Chinese emperor gave a fuck if some mongolian horde had suddenly become a part of his nation? You think the Muslim caliphate gave a damn? Maybe the Roman empire gave a fuck? Leaders make borders and never in history has there been much attention to who gets to live on what side, but there has always been plenty of attention as to wich side of the border would have a mountain filled with iron. But for some strange reason the people in Africa couldn't cope with this and reacted in a fit of uncontrollable self-destructive rage that is still going on today. Honestly there is only so long you can go on with carying a grudge and still be taken seriously. This border nonesense has been repeated often enough and has no grounding in reality. Another one of those false truths wich is accepted on no other basis then "sounds reasonable". The borders were drawn by other countries, not native leaders. Come on, think about this for more than 5 seconds.
Oke so rather then people who don't care anything about the local population make-up, the borders were drawn by...people that don't care anything about the local population make-up. I never said they were not drawn by European leaders, the point was that even native leaders have sold out parts of their population throughout history. How do you think borders came to be? Because people wanted to peacefully hold hands and make the best possible division? You honestly think that leaders of a country are gonna give a damn about the people living on the borders? Some border folk are a cheap sell for some fertile land. All borders are the result of give and take and many more people that you could count have gone from one nation to the other by the signing of a pen wether it be a native leader or a foreign leader.
Only the Africans are supposedly unable to deal with this fact and engaged in selfdestructive behaviour for many centuries to follow. Atleast such is your point.
You really should read the thing you quote, come on, think about this for more then 5 seconds.
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The main problem within africa is the actualy attitude and mentality.
I'm not saying all africans are the same. I'm sure they are hundreds of thousands of good hearted people.
Let me make a comparison. In America there is many exploitations of the current system that allowed people to greedily benefit. This only stops when it is 100% prevented, which takes time. It takes a powerful justice system.
In africa it is the same kind of scenario, people exploit others. They exploit their naiive nature so they can gain. Basically curruption.
But within Africa the justice system is very weak.
So overall, the attitude of greedyness, exploitationists, provail and prosper. This type of activity is what leads to a vicious circle of more greed, less justice, and more curruption.
Within this mentality of free for all, you have all types of attrocious events...
If you cannot hold people accountable, more and more will follow the path of curruption as a survival method.
And I agree that Europeans have held an influence over the state of africa. Some people have good points.
There are many differences between group mentalities over the globe.
I feel that africa is plagued by greed, the curruption of money, and most of all ignorance.
If you are willing to kill another human being, you are ignorant. Directly or indirectly.
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On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A
I dont think driving the native population into the brink of extinction (aborigines, american indian, mayan) is better than the current situation in Africa (for the natives at least)
so not really agree with your D > B comment
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On June 02 2011 16:54 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:51 baoluvboa wrote:On June 02 2011 16:49 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 02 2011 16:23 Lexpar wrote:
I truly hope that somewhere in the future the backwards continent of Africa can receive real humanitarian aid and reparations for the hundreds of years of social and economic damage the rest of the world has caused it. It seems like many of the most terrible articles I read are fueled by the ever pressing poverty and hunger and disease that grips the African continent. I'm interested in TL's opinion as to whether or not the hundreds of western charities set up to benefit Africa can, have, or will make a real difference. Is a larger, international, government effort needed?
this brings to mind a quote about giving a man a fish but i don't think that's the real reason these people are hungry Yea give a man a fish after you stole his resources and people and ignored genocides (slaves) A fish is toooo much to ask for we stole their resources and people? slavery in the US was a long time ago.. unless you are talking about something else?
Errr. Not to mention the fact that many of the original Slavers were native Africans, themselves.
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On June 03 2011 11:48 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:51 VIB wrote:On June 03 2011 02:55 shadymmj wrote:
What I'm saying is that Africa has demonstrated very little ability to make progress on its own, with or without foreign influence, good or bad. It is therefore not right to say that Africa is the sole result of westerners. You seem to think there's only 2 possibilities in the equation: A) Africa with no foreign contact at all, which would likely be still in bronze or feudal age today B) Africa being exploited to death by europeans, which did bring them more than they had although got them worse than every other place on earth today Then you conclude B > A. No one is arguing against that. (though we'll never be 100% sure) But instead we're trying to show you that foreign contact was inevitable, and it didn't need to be destructible. Instead these could happen. C) Non destructive contact with beneficial trades for both sides. Ex.: europe trading with some asian countries D) Settling colonies just like europe did to US, Australia and others. (C and D) > B > A I dont think driving the native population into the brink of extinction (aborigines, american indian, mayan) is better than the current situation in Africa (for the natives at least) so not really agree with your D > B comment I mostly agree with you, but I was talking on the utilitarianist point of view of the guy I was quoting. Not necessarily my own.
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I may get shit for saying this, but there are quite a few parallels with their twisted idea, and how many advanced countries manufacture our proteins. To them women are just as inferior as animals, it does not justify it but it is going to take years to change their way of thinking.
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Human trafficking... too fucked up. After reading through the Deep Web thread, man, my mind is just racing.
The thing that scares me the most about all this isn't the grunt work, or the work of the middle men - it's whoever is at the top and sending money down through the ranks. Bah. Gonna sit on this info tonight.
Thanks for the OP.
On June 03 2011 04:29 Eufouria wrote:
This makes me both sick and so angry, how can people have such a callous disregard for life.
Also this economic discussion is pretty distasteful. To imply that the ordinary people in Africa are poor because they want to be poor, or don't work hard enough is stupid. Countries need resources to make money. In Africa these resources are controlled by corrupt businessmen, some African and some Western. You also can't compare it to any other countries experience, because even in Russia post Tsar at least they'd had a revolution.
We should continue to send aid, and up the amount of aid that we send, but I fear that the only way things can improve will be after long revolutions where the people take the natural resources back for themselves. I don't even know if that will be enough because I'm not sure the poorer African countries have enough resources for their huge populations.
I agree with the 2nd paragraph entirely. Under careful guidance and surveillance, a lot of the money does get put to good use, but what about the rest of it? It probably finds its way back to some of the sick fucks who are orchestrating this kind of crap. Different circumstances, but here's an example: people stealing the aid resources from the Red Cross. Disgusting.
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I think I just vomited in my mouth a little. This is disgusting
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I know I'm supposed to be shocked, but what action could possibly come from bringing to light such events? I've read the article. Now it'll take me about 10 minutes to decide to stop reading through this thread and move onto another, or I'll go to sleep. I'll forget about this in 15 minutes.
Does this type of journalism help Africa? No. I doubt any of them read this and suddenly decided to go around stopping these "baby factories." It doesn't affect their life either.
It's all for entertainment. Isn't it sad how a forum is basically like "Create Your Own News Show" with endless stories to report?
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On June 03 2011 14:12 ghrur wrote:
I know I'm supposed to be shocked, but what action could possibly come from bringing to light such events? I've read the article. Now it'll take me about 10 minutes to decide to stop reading through this thread and move onto another, or I'll go to sleep. I'll forget about this in 15 minutes.
Does this type of journalism help Africa? No. I doubt any of them read this and suddenly decided to go around stopping these "baby factories." It doesn't affect their life either.
It's all for entertainment. Isn't it sad how a forum is basically like "Create Your Own News Show" with endless stories to report?
Are you incapable of filtering out the good information from the bad information? If TL to you is like leaving the radio on in the background, and you can't separate what merits awareness and what merits ignorance, then you should probably find another hobby.
There is no need to be so cynical. Many people will have read this article having learned something, and just because they may not be able to act on it immediately, doesn't mean it should be discarded as useless.
No individual, after learning of this, will be able to put an end to it. No change can take place immediately. However, something can happen over time, after it becomes part of a group consciousness.
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On June 03 2011 04:29 Eufouria wrote:
Also this economic discussion is pretty distasteful. To imply that the ordinary people in Africa are poor because they want to be poor, or don't work hard enough is stupid. Countries need resources to make money. In Africa these resources are controlled by corrupt businessmen, some African and some Western. You also can't compare it to any other countries experience, because even in Russia post Tsar at least they'd had a revolution.
It's just simple-mindness at his worst.
Some don't just realize that there's a reason there are PhDs in economics and you can't just throughly explain a country's failure to stabilize a dynamic economy by saying... that they're just "not good at it" and "sort of lazy".
Ok, you've read a dozen wikipedia articles, but it's a superficial and incomplete knowledge. At least aknowledge that, guys.
But maybe the world IS that simple. Then German people are "evil", french people are "cowards", japanese people are "sneaky", US people are "fat" and "dumb". Oh, and Bush declared war to Iraq because he was "stupid" and "drunk". And Osama Ben Laden was just really "pissed off".
They took urrr jooobs herp der deeeerp.
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i have nvr heard of baby factory before
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14 years in Jail? In China we shoot you.
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And that's why china suck!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 03 2011 02:52 Gustaf wrote:
Stop the aid, it has done way more ill than good. I just wrote a paper about it so cba to explain my points, but read Dambisa Moyos book "Dead Aid" and you will get the hang of it. Only humanitarian aid should exist, development aid has to be removed or drastically changed.
YEA! Africa needs more aids for humanity.
On June 03 2011 15:39 MadNeSs wrote:
And that's why china suck!
No, that's why China does not have prison culture and crime is almost 0%. Do you know what it costs to keep a man in prison for 14 years?
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Do you know what it costs to make sure you're not shooting an innocent man? Actually more than just executing him. But maybe you want the authorities randomly shooting people on the head like they do in China.
Excuse me, I might a bit sensitive about Tiananmen, corruption, demagogy and stuff.
And, of course, when crime is committed by the authorities, then it's not crime anymore, right? Did you know that corporations in China have to actually pay taxes to the mafia to even exist?
Also, of course there will be no prisoners if you get shot and tortured after robbing a grocery store (even though you could've done it just to survive).
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On June 03 2011 17:18 Kukaracha wrote:
Do you know what it costs to make sure you're not shooting an innocent man? Actually more than just executing him. But maybe you want the authorities randomly shooting people on the head like they do in China.
Excuse me, I might a bit sensitive about Tiananmen, corruption, demagogy and stuff.
And, of course, when crime is committed by the authorities, then it's not crime anymore, right? Did you know that corporations in China have to actually pay taxes to the mafia to even exist?
Also, of course there will be no prisoners if you get shot and tortured after robbing a grocery store (even though you could've done it just to survive).
If you wanna make a point then claim something that can be argued for or against.
Your "sensitivity about TAM, etc" is irrelevant.
Was that a fucked up time in modern history? You bet. What of it? Governments commit horrendous acts on their own people frequently, e.g. Gulf of Tonkin, 911 in the US.
Your anecdotes about the Chinese mafia are as misunderstood as they are misleading.
I am very interested to know the extent of your knowledge and understanding regarding China, its people, history, culture, and language.
To answer your question, "crime" is to be understood as a punishable offense. In this way, governments cannot and do not commit crimes unless there is an agency capable of holding said agency accountable. So, the answer to your facetiously posed question is, "yes".
The only proof of strength is strength itself.
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No, that's why China does not have prison culture and crime is almost 0%. Do you know what it costs to keep a man in prison for 14 years?
Well that depends. In a proper legal system it costs quite a lot because you need to be very carefull in making sure you got the right guy so a lot of appeals go on and on and the entire process becomes rather lengthy out of fear of condeming an innocent man to the death sentence.
In a Chinese system of law it's a lot cheaper because if you got the wrong guy you just shrug and if a reporter asks questions you just give him the death penalty and if a reporter asks about that then...well you get the general idea.
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On June 03 2011 17:37 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +No, that's why China does not have prison culture and crime is almost 0%. Do you know what it costs to keep a man in prison for 14 years? Well that depends. In a proper legal system it costs quite a lot because you need to be very carefull in making sure you got the right guy so a lot of appeals go on and on and the entire process becomes rather lengthy out of fear of condeming an innocent man to the death sentence. In a Chinese system of law it's a lot cheaper because if you got the wrong guy you just shrug and if a reporter asks questions you just give him the death penalty and if a reporter asks about that then...well you get the general idea.
you would make a great pulp fiction author.
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Harsher punishments might stop freaks like this if they knew they were gonna be fucked up like the old Chinese ways of humiliating someone (cutting them up in public). Other than that I don't see any way to punish people like this, if they already lived around such horrible things on a daily bases I don't think anything could be bad enough for them to almost not enjoy it. People are animals.
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June 26 marks the UN's International Day Against Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking, a date when China has traditionally executed and sentenced convicted drug traffickers to illustrate its resolve in fighting the scourge.
Usually a very sad day for Nigerian mothers. Just do a G***L* search with the terms "Nigerian, china execute, trafficking" and you will see countless articles.
source
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On June 03 2011 17:24 Redunzl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 17:18 Kukaracha wrote:
Do you know what it costs to make sure you're not shooting an innocent man? Actually more than just executing him. But maybe you want the authorities randomly shooting people on the head like they do in China.
Excuse me, I might a bit sensitive about Tiananmen, corruption, demagogy and stuff.
And, of course, when crime is committed by the authorities, then it's not crime anymore, right? Did you know that corporations in China have to actually pay taxes to the mafia to even exist?
Also, of course there will be no prisoners if you get shot and tortured after robbing a grocery store (even though you could've done it just to survive). If you wanna make a point then claim something that can be argued for or against. Your "sensitivity about TAM, etc" is irrelevant. Was that a fucked up time in modern history? You bet. What of it? Governments commit horrendous acts on their own people frequently, e.g. Gulf of Tonkin, 911 in the US. Your anecdotes about the Chinese mafia are as misunderstood as they are misleading. I am very interested to know the extent of your knowledge and understanding regarding China, its people, history, culture, and language. To answer your question, "crime" is to be understood as a punishable offense. In this way, governments cannot and do not commit crimes unless there is an agency capable of holding said agency accountable. So, the answer to your facetiously posed question is, "yes". The only proof of strength is strength itself.
wait, did you just slip a 9-11 conspiracy theory in there?
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On June 03 2011 17:47 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 17:24 Redunzl wrote:On June 03 2011 17:18 Kukaracha wrote:
Do you know what it costs to make sure you're not shooting an innocent man? Actually more than just executing him. But maybe you want the authorities randomly shooting people on the head like they do in China.
Excuse me, I might a bit sensitive about Tiananmen, corruption, demagogy and stuff.
And, of course, when crime is committed by the authorities, then it's not crime anymore, right? Did you know that corporations in China have to actually pay taxes to the mafia to even exist?
Also, of course there will be no prisoners if you get shot and tortured after robbing a grocery store (even though you could've done it just to survive). If you wanna make a point then claim something that can be argued for or against. Your "sensitivity about TAM, etc" is irrelevant. Was that a fucked up time in modern history? You bet. What of it? Governments commit horrendous acts on their own people frequently, e.g. Gulf of Tonkin, 911 in the US. Your anecdotes about the Chinese mafia are as misunderstood as they are misleading. I am very interested to know the extent of your knowledge and understanding regarding China, its people, history, culture, and language. To answer your question, "crime" is to be understood as a punishable offense. In this way, governments cannot and do not commit crimes unless there is an agency capable of holding said agency accountable. So, the answer to your facetiously posed question is, "yes". The only proof of strength is strength itself. wait, did you just slip a 9-11 conspiracy theory in there?
No, you did though.
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I think if the entire continent of Africa sunk into the ocean, no one would care. I would miss the giraffes and shit but thats about it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Farming babies then slavery/prostitution/illegal adoption
People watching Matrix thought only machines could do this. But actually it's human beings who farm babies. Disgusting
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On June 03 2011 17:54 FecalFrown wrote:
I think if the entire continent of Africa sunk into the ocean, no one would care. I would miss the giraffes and shit but thats about it.
And if you drown in the ocean, the world is a better place.
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On June 03 2011 18:07 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 17:54 FecalFrown wrote:
I think if the entire continent of Africa sunk into the ocean, no one would care. I would miss the giraffes and shit but thats about it. And if you drown in the ocean, the world is a better place.
 If you ban Fecal for saying he would be happy with the abomination of Africa. Then you must ban Flag for saying that the abomination of Fecal would "make the world better".
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The comments about this being a result of the western imperial powers fucking Africa over and making them poor are way off base. Human sacrifice and slavery were relatively wide-spread practices in primitive societies, especially among primitive tribal societies (which is what sub-Saharan Africa was until the colonialists came). If the major powers in the colonial age had not set foot in Africa you would be seeing a lot more of these kinds of abhorrent cruelties associated with tribal life, including and not limited to female genital mutilation, infanticide etc.
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Humanity never ceaes to amaze; I find myself hard to believe that this stuff is happening.
What the effin fuck is going on...
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I like that every other post is decrying the ignorance of all posters before them.
I'll just say that baby farms are generally considered 'not cool' in Iceland. And since Iceland has never had anything to do with Africa (beside sending some aid and whatnot) I feel no need to wallow in any sort of white mans guilt whenever Africa is brought up. But obviously, being white 'n all, I can't really judge these noble baby-farmers and their baby-farming ways.
That is all.
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On June 03 2011 17:54 FecalFrown wrote:
I think if the entire continent of Africa sunk into the ocean, no one would care. I would miss the giraffes and shit but thats about it.
User was temp banned for this post.
I'd care. I live there and I'm not really terribly good at holding my breath.
Also, an obscure fact. Sandstorms in the Sahara get picked up by the prevailing winds and drop nutrient rich sand in the amazon basin. The amazon basin has very bad soil so the rainforests depend on this. Thats right, Africa helps provide clean air to the world!
Back on topic, Africa has many rich and fertile countries. The sterotype of swollen bellied babies starving belies this fact. The problem is that most places are run by fucked up dictators whose corruption runs the countries into the ground. Zimbabwe is a good example of this. It was once called the "breadbasket of Africa" because of its highly productive farms but then Mugabe went batshit insane and took the farms from the people who used them productivly and gave them to his followers - the result is they lie fallow. The ordinary people then suffer as a result since staple foods become unavailable.
This is a typical African story and I have no clue how to change it. Throwing "aid" at it doesn't really help because I'm sceptical of how much gets to where it should go and how much is siphoned off by the ruling party. My only hope is that as the masses educate themselves they stop tolerating such rubbish and install proper accoutable Governments. Until they do history will repeat itself.
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On June 03 2011 14:55 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 14:12 ghrur wrote:
I know I'm supposed to be shocked, but what action could possibly come from bringing to light such events? I've read the article. Now it'll take me about 10 minutes to decide to stop reading through this thread and move onto another, or I'll go to sleep. I'll forget about this in 15 minutes.
Does this type of journalism help Africa? No. I doubt any of them read this and suddenly decided to go around stopping these "baby factories." It doesn't affect their life either.
It's all for entertainment. Isn't it sad how a forum is basically like "Create Your Own News Show" with endless stories to report? Are you incapable of filtering out the good information from the bad information? If TL to you is like leaving the radio on in the background, and you can't separate what merits awareness and what merits ignorance, then you should probably find another hobby. There is no need to be so cynical. Many people will have read this article having learned something, and just because they may not be able to act on it immediately, doesn't mean it should be discarded as useless. No individual, after learning of this, will be able to put an end to it. No change can take place immediately. However, something can happen over time, after it becomes part of a group consciousness.
Clearly I'm able to filter out good information from bad information because I'm calling this out as useless information. I can also understand which threads merit awareness and which merit ignorance as I that's the point of the "create your own news show" idea. You get to choose which merit awareness and which don't. It honestly doesn't make that any less true.
I can't tell if that remark was intentioned as a jab or if you're just posting in a hostile tone. Saying I can't discriminate (a basic part of thinking) seems like quite an attack.
And become part of a group consciousness? My point is precisely that it'll never become part of ANY group consciousness. 10 minutes and forget. TL has already moved on, to Carnivores, to Vegans, to Chinese+North Koreans, to the "Deep web." How many people have read this and moved on? Clearly everyone who viewed the thread considering it's not even being posted in anymore. It'll take something extraordinary to become part of a group consciousness for longer than one news cycle at this rate.
That is why it's useless. We don't do anything with it except get an emotional shock. It's like watching Spongebob or Scooby-Doo. We get an emotional response, the next episode comes out, we forget the last, and we keep on watching. Haha, hehe, hoho! At least we know Scooby-Doo/Spongebob are for entertainment. This is marketed as news. As something that's supposed to help us into action as a collective group. Yeah, right.
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Why am I not surprised this happened in Lagos, Nigeria... Nigeria has a bad rep with the rest of the world for some good reasons and this is yet another one added to the list. Lagos is a cesspool of corruption and gangs.
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Baby factory?
Where can I get in on this very fun sounding job opportunity.
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It ranks up there with South African men raping toddlers because of their belief that sex with a virgin could cure AIDS.
Man this shit really pissed me off. Words can describe how.
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charities and those humanitarian aids are simply trying to bandage the big problem, and it will never work.
in order to fix their country, we have to fix their government.. more importantly we have to fix their people, by creating real business opportunities, improving their economy, implementing more education systems...
but thats not possible, unless we can "take over" their country, and force our "regime" on to them.
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while a few are either killed or tortured in black magic rituals.
^I'd like to see sources for this. Sounds like some skewed prejudice to me.
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^I'd like to see sources for this. Sounds like some skewed prejudice to me.
"Black magic rituals" is a weird way to put it, but people are tortured and killed in Africa (albinos are a good example) sometimes because of animist or other indigenous beliefs about "magic."
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On June 04 2011 11:56 Thrill wrote:
while a few are either killed or tortured in black magic rituals.
^I'd like to see sources for this. Sounds like some skewed prejudice to me.
Voodoo is actually pretty big in Africa and still practiced. In certain countries albinos are very likely to get killed because they are considered to bring luck.
You gotta understand that Africa is a really fucked up place and a lot of that "prejudice" is actually just the truth about how fucked up it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_people_with_albinism
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Thats the kind of shit that I can only imagine in horror stories.
Reality > fiction
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oh yeah
they have them in America too, witches and satanists buy babies for human sacrifice
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That is one crazy story. It reminds me of the fact that the world can be a f***** up place sometimes. Stuff "like this" happens all the time, everywhere - do not think it's just Africa. But the OP asked for sharing thoughts specifically about Africa.
Having a insight into cultural anthropology, politics and economics, I can understand why certain things "work" like they do. I'll try to keep my view as brief as possible. But am aware that it's really not as brief as I say. The story is horrible, but not unique. It's not much different than certain religions/cults do in our own western society. But we have the advantage of a more "matured" society. One where we have a fairly solid system with rights as civilians, that has a bigger and better way of dealing with harmful crap. This is where Africa as a whole is behind quite a bit still.
Western governments have a great past with Africa. We want(ed) to colonize it, implement democracies (or install dictators that we think are a pretty cool guy - who doesn't afraid of anything) and basically try to shape it after the values we think are universal. While - as a western civilian - I think the value of freedom is an awesome thing, I am well aware of the road we had to take to get there. And looking at people around me today in the western world, I doubt many of them realize this awesome fact. But I digress.
Africa has a much different history than the western world. The fact that we westerners have to do what we think is right is a good thing, I think. Sadly we fail in a lot of ways when it comes to Africa. Intentional or not. Africa has a culture that consists of/comes from tribes, and a whole different mentality as a whole. Add to this the western influence. The "white man" plundering, claiming land, drawing borders with rulers, then pulling out wanting to be all good: it's a very short summary of a few things that the western world contributed in a negative way to what Africa is this very day. Not saying in any way that Africa has it a lot tougher than the western world did in its history, but from our point of view the very least we can at least agree with is that (most countries in) Africa aren't near the western world standards by a long shot yet. If they ever get there isn't important. Freedom, democracy, free market, public healthcare: all these are just a few examples of things that can improve the life(span) of a person/society drastically. While I think some of these - if not all - things are indeed good and probably supported by the vast majority of any society as a whole, I don't think shoving them down someone's (society) throat helps a whole lot.
Because the next thing is corruption. People with power and money are a wonderful (read: f***** up) thing. If he who makes the law can be relatively easy bribed, down goes the intention of the system. Throwing a sack of coins and a .pdf-file with a blueprint of "How to democracy v13.76", and thinking stuff will solve itself is a very naive way of helping. Luckily the western countries learned from that (a bit). But the most important thing is acknowledging the (huge) differences in culture, and trying to find a way through that to get a better system going. Knowing however that the free market on guns - for instance - flourishes greatly to this very day thanks to the state Africa is in, I fear the road ahead is a long one indeed. But many gas stations filled with a good load of dialogue-fuel that can at least keep people moving on that very road. Helping out with a healthy supply of said kind of fuel can contribute in a good way, I think.
Understanding why we/others do things the way we/others do them and acknowledging that is the key. Unless it's about horrible stuff like the story in the OP, or pain/hurt/etc in general, understanding ourselves/the others is a need to survive for the human species as a whole. Because differences are awesome.
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EPT
