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This pressure must be hard to stand... Those students are pretty mindfucked they should smoke a joint enjoy life instead of killing themselve... I know a lot of people who did terreble in scool/life and have the greatest time, but maybe thats not possible in korea. It really makes me curios whats the difference between our countrys i mean we have a lot of lower class workers who are happy in life whats up in korea u cant have a happy life if u havent studyed, is there such a big gap?
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On May 24 2011 10:09 Krampus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO .
very well put. I'm guessing you're a premed student for the right reasons, which is really hard to come by these days..
On May 24 2011 10:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote: This pressure must be hard to stand... Those students are pretty mindfucked they should smoke a joint enjoy life instead of killing themselve... I know a lot of people who did terreble in scool/life and have the greatest time, but maybe thats not possible in korea. It really makes me curios whats the difference between our countrys i mean we have a lot of lower class workers who are happy in life whats up in korea u cant have a happy life if u havent studyed, is there such a big gap?
this is hard to answer but I guess the biggest difference stems from where the two find their sources of happiness. In Korea, a widespread perception is that happiness comes from external sources: job, school name, social status.. One's image is everything there. The idea that happiness can come from within no matter how incongruent it is with the external world is just not a part of the korean culture. That's not to say ALL koreans believe this of course, but it's definitely a characteristic of our culture.
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We need to send LiquidTyler over there and give them a lesson on how to Chilllllllllll.
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It's just too bad.
There's a huge amount of sacrifice that goes into Korean parenting. Korean parents will often take on two or three jobs to send their kids to those cram schools and hagwons. When the kids take those sample tests and they don't score as highly as they would like, they feel like they failed. It's absolutely the worst feeling in the world to know that all of your hard work was all for naught. It really is. However, I know that a lot of the kids who go through this rigorous pressure eventually want the same thing for their children. I think it just comes from the culture that there's so much pressure behind these exams and getting into those universities.
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I have alot of Korean friends in China, and their grades are all insane. The reason : Academy. I guess its a mixture of their culture and their huge passion to do well that drives them that way. Some of my friends go to academy all the way to midnight. Its crazy.
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Is the number of 146 the total number of teen suicides per year, or the number where they know it has a accademic background? It's at all very sad, but the number does not sound that high and keep in mind other countries may just count suicides in a different way and say they had other reasons (raping, drugs, family violence). As I know, korea has not more school amok death, than any other western country.
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On May 24 2011 08:21 imperator-xy wrote: they are really doing it the hard way
at the same time we are doing it the real soft way which makes us fall behind those ambitous countries
Having slightly better reading comprehension, or being somewhat more talented at arithmetic, does not mean that your child has any better chance of having a happy, fulfilling life and a successful career in their future. Social skills are vastly more important, and you're not going to develop those if you're studying 16 hours a day. A focus on ultracompetitive academics is a terrible phenomenon that destroys people's lives, promotes generational depression and unhappiness and emotionally cripples its victims for life.
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You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag.
http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/
My stance is this: the Asian education system promotes working hard, but not necessarily working smart. There is an emphasis on brute memorization and getting the answer, rather than actually learning the material. I had asked my friends if that was the case, why were the Asians so dominant in the IMO competitions. Apparently IMO questions all have patterns, and Asians were trained since they were very little to be able to crack the code.
The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise.
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On May 24 2011 11:03 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China. Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise.
Obviously Japanese entrepreneurship lacks compared to a Western country like America, but it is still advanced compared to other Asian countries. I had read an article saying the Japanese recession actually helped this train of thought due to the impossibility of finding a job at a corporation, so people decided to start their own companies. You do see that often in China, but the overall majority is still just domesticated copies of U.S. ideas.
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On May 24 2011 11:07 kakaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:03 PanzerKing wrote:On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China. Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise. Obviously Japanese entrepreneurship lacks compared to a Western country like America, but it is still advanced compared to other Asian countries. I had read an article saying the Japanese recession actually helped this train of thought due to the impossibility of finding a job at a corporation, so people decided to start their own companies. You do see that often in China, but the overall majority is still just domesticated copies of U.S. ideas.
Interesting point about the recession. I know it's created one new sector of jobs - people who teach middle-aged workers how to go through a job application and accept the idea that being fired isn't a reflection on their skills as an employee. I suppose it's not surprising to see their prolonged recession shaking up social norms.
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They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary.
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This is unbelievable to me. As an american teenager, I was able to blow off high school and I still graduated and got into an excellent college. This is very tragic that young men and women are given so much pressure to succeed at a time in life where they are least able to handle intense stress. Any suicide that comes as a result of school pressure is a pointless, tragic waste of good minds.
I sincerely hope that academic institutions provide a way for students on the edge to take time away from school without making them feeling stigmatized.
Edit- I noticed Epik talking about how "Inner Happiness" or whatever you want to call it, is not a part of the korean culture. This fascinates me, because the idea that happiness comes from external factors like what kind of job you have or your measure of "success" in life, is really quite foreign to me. When I was growing up, my father would say to me "Ian, I don't care what job or career you have in life so long as you are passionate and happy. If you want to be a ditch digger, then I expect you to be the best damn ditch digger you can be, and that's fine"
This has always stuck with me, that the measure of success is not money or fame, but rather the passion you have and how you improve what you love. I guess I might just be rambling here, but it is so damn tragic to hear about people throwing their life away because they can't force themselves to fit the role that the culture demands of them.
Disclaimer- I am not a ditch digger.
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag. http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/My stance is this: the Asian education system promotes working hard, but not necessarily working smart. There is an emphasis on brute memorization and getting the answer, rather than actually learning the material. I had asked my friends if that was the case, why were the Asians so dominant in the IMO competitions. Apparently IMO questions all have patterns, and Asians were trained since they were very little to be able to crack the code. The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
i read this article as well, it really told me nothing new that i didn't already know.
china won't run into this problem for a good long while (probably at least a generation), because they are still industrializing (i.e. there is very little need to innovate because they will be able to maintain high levels of growth simply by copying the west). the real struggle comes after industrialization, when these countries need to innovate themselves in order to continue to grow.
south korea's own president has acknowledged this issue, i dont think that asians are blind to this, it will take time for shit like this to change.
i also don't think you can overgeneralize this too much, i have a lot of asian friends (mostly all asian american, but some immigrant ones as well) who do not adopt this way of thinking -- i certainly don't think the asian race is doomed to be stagnant for eternity.
i think a lot of people don't understand that the older generation sees it this way as well. if it weren't for the fact that my parents tried so incredibly hard to be able to provide for myself the way they have (by whatever means i guess you can be the judge), then i would not have the 'freedom' so to speak in order to do what i like, and allow the next generation to do even more, if that makes sense.
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On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary.
lol?
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Being in a good university is extremely important in southeast asian countries.
For example, in Hong Kong, I know parents who have spent tens of thousands of dollars to get kids into high rated pre-schools in good neighbourhoods so that they are prepared for the future. Stuff like this is why kids feel so obligated to give their money to their parents.
Commiting suicide is mainly because given such good preparation kids feel like they've failed their parents. Every spare hour for weeks before exams is spent with a tutor who will ensure that the kids know EVERY little thing that could be, has been and will be on the exam. Honestly, unless a change in the culture happens, I don't think anything will happen. I don't like what's happening but I don't think last minute counselling will help at all.
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I see the same problems in america. Many koreans from my high school had the "harvard or bust" mentality. I'm not sure what the culture is in korea but it sounds pretty harsh to me. Something should be done about it.
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Certain types of strict Asian parents are the worst, and some kids just can't imagine what life would be like if they didn't do well in the final exams and their parents make it out to be the end of the world to the kids. It's terribly stupid and pathetic at the same time, and not a problem unique to Korea, Taiwan and Japan are very similar as well but they doesn't seem to be making such a big fuss as much anymore about student suicide rates. Cram school are still way too many because of the incompetent educational system that allows for these things to exist in such abundance, some kids literally go home at 9 or 10pm almost every day after cram school.
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Wow, 146 students is a lot for such s short period of time...It really worries me that there is so much academic pressure in Korea. I mean I've heard of some bad cases with my Korean-American friends, but I can only imagine how much worse it is in Korea. I really hope that something can be done about it and the number decreases. =\
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They have some type of mandatory military service for young men I think. Do these University kids get to serve, or they become exempt if they they enroll? Confused.
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