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On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one.
This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant. Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree.
I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial.
Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day 
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I really respect South Korea's culture of work ethic, but I don't see why education would be so critical even in an incredibly competitive society that you have no shot at even moderate success at anything without that certificate. There ought to be some other schools you can get into and then just climb the ladder after you actually start working. Surely your employer would want to promote you if you simply showed you were hard working and capable even if you only went to the 4th/5th best school in the country. Why doesn't this work in Korean society, or if it does where does all that stress come from?
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Just food for thought here don't shoot me.
Teenage suicide has the same problem in the states but it doesn't follow the same forms, instead of suicide due to academic pressure its usually peer pressure and fitting in. I think instead of just narrowly viewing this issue as a korean problem it really is just psychologically dealing with students before suicide. Depression is a REAL disease, however its the most underrepresented, most people downplay it which results in suicide.
Asian culture will always have students striving for the best in grades, nothing wrong with that, teachers and parents just need to watch for warning signs and yellow/red flags to prevent these things from happening as often
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On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day
Yeah, it's part of the high context versus low context culture differences. Communication between parents and children can be very different ("Eastern" vs "Western"), though not necessarily stereotypically so. UFO does have a point, however. At a certain threshold, it becomes less a result of love than a competitive urge for success, accomplishment, etc. I'm not saying either you or UFO are wrong; I'm merely stating that it's never black and white, and there is a grey area here as well in terms of cultural differences. We're all extremely intelligent individuals, but sometimes one must realize that our perspectives may or may not be somewhat polarized and/or close-minded.
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On May 24 2011 08:57 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:51 T0fuuu wrote:On May 24 2011 08:26 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote:
@ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more. asians take a very different stance on education from westerners at it reflects. asian americans have higher median income than whites, statistically score higher on standardized tests, and we have an overwhelming presence at any top school, this all within ONE generation. i'm not going to list the negatives, there are many that I can list but I would go into them too much here. i would say 95% of my friends who were asian who i grew up with went to either top state universities or ivy league caliber schools. but i would say most of my white (er non asian) friends who were also strong academically were much stronger all around. NO. Don't confuse the Korean Academic system with Korean culture. Korean universities and Asian universities in general are bad compared to the top US/European university. We all know it. That is why Asians study so hard to get there and why the OP puts such emphasis on students getting into the top 3 universities. The top 3 are nowhere near as good as Americas top 3 but top 3 in Korea is still better than average korean universities that dont even have an international presence. If you are asking as to whether children raised that way are better academically then I wouldnt know. University's prove their strength by the research they have done and we know that the best universities arent from Korea. I don't know the ethnicity of the people that have done the research and even if they were all asian I wouldnt make a link to one race or culture being superior cos those Asians may have grown up in the country that they study. your comments don't really reflect what i was saying at all.
He asked about the Korean Academic system and if that produces good students. So that would be korean schools, teachers, curriculum etc.
You replied with saying that Asians in the American Academic system do well in university. But this has nothing to do with the American system and has everything to do with being asian and having a culture that puts a huge priority on education.
So what makes good academic students? Is it from their own hard work and study? Or is it from educational systems that can teach them better? I said I dont know. But we know which universities have the best students/research and they arent Korean or Asian.
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On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day
the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary 
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On May 24 2011 08:09 AimlessAmoeba wrote:I had no idea it was such a big issue... 146 students committing suicide purely based on academic pressure? Woww... I'm sad now
I know its crazy. I just completed IB and that was stressful, imagine them.
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On May 24 2011 09:12 zobz wrote:
I really respect South Korea's culture of work ethic, but I don't see why education would be so critical even in an incredibly competitive society that you have no shot at even moderate success at anything without that certificate. There ought to be some other schools you can get into and then just climb the ladder after you actually start working. Surely your employer would want to promote you if you simply showed you were hard working and capable even if you only went to the 4th/5th best school in the country. Why doesn't this work in Korean society, or if it does where does all that stress come from?
community colleges do not really exist in asia, as far as i know. from what my cousins tell me there is university (a lot of pressure to get into, very difficult to get into), and then there are technical schools.
work is completely opposite though, american work culture is much more strenuous/difficult than in asia from what i know.
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I think the part of this that can be fixed is the huge importance and respect Koreans have for older people. The first Korean friends I met online years ago made it pretty obvious to me how important age was to them and that older members being shown respect was critical to their culture. This is stupid, age is just a number, wisdom is what is important. Like being a low rank in the army constantly having to show respect to others and not getting enough yourself will cause depression and suicide. It's annoying to have to watch these progamers at the age of 25 have their parents describe them as good children because they support their parents by giving them all their profits from gaming. In America it's the complete opposite children at college spoil away all their parents money and then leave.
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The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah.
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I am not surprised at all since so many of my friends have told me about it. Not trying to be an ass or anything since I know how much pressure Koreans, or Asians in general get from their parents, peers, and the rest of society. It is great to be competitive in academics, but this is too much for a young person to endure since they are really doing it the hard way.
I find it sad how a name and prestige of a school makes people so suicidal. Not speaking about the Korean school system, I understand people want to go to a "good" school, but it's ridiculous what lengths people go to. I personally think as long as you go to a school and get a degree, it's fine since you got a higher education. Now, I understand that every school has different things to offer, but I have some friends who want to go to so and so school based upon the school's name, athletic teams, etc.
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On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary
Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous.
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With that much cases of suicides, I think we should be asking what the parents are doing to ease the pressure their children are getting from school. It is the parents' responsibility to always check on how their children are doing and to guide them through these kinds of troubles. Very sad news...
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Clearly this is the modern Sparta
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On May 24 2011 09:28 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous.
actually my parents were not as extreme as yours. to be honest i was the 'bad' asian kid, i had really low grades (high SAT scores though), and took a shit ton of AP courses my junior/senior year. my mom actually made me RETAKE my sat's despite getting a 1520/1600 at the time. (actually did worse the second time cuz i didn't give a shit, and just left midway through). i still got into really good public school, and my parents didn't give me a whole lot of shit for it, but yes they still bug me about it and i still get the comparisons today (ooohh your friend you see he got into UPenn, or harvard or some shit).
at some level i realized at a fairly young age that my parents would never disown me, so I had the real power. i got my fair share of whippings, but i just never gave a shit. eventually you become too old for the bamboo stick.
but yes, i had to lie a lot and make up random ass shit in order to have some semblance of a 'life'.
koreans are more strict than chinese though, so meh : /
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On May 24 2011 09:26 Deadeight wrote:
The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah.
This is somewhat true if all your motivation is extrinsic. But "happiness" is also almost completely relative, so you can't say that people working hard to achieve a lofty goal isn't a course to reach happiness, because to me and a lot of other people, it is. Haven't you ever worked super hard for something and been happy upon completion? Its the same thing. By the way, I'm pretty sure dentists/doctors don't have to hit 60 to start "doing something."
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But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide?
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On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote:
But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide?
asians dont view children as weak.
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On May 24 2011 09:33 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:28 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote:
So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous. actually my parents were not as extreme as yours. to be honest i was the 'bad' asian kid, i had really low grades (high SAT scores though), and took a shit ton of AP courses my junior/senior year. my mom actually made me RETAKE my sat's despite getting a 1520/1600 at the time. (actually did worse the second time cuz i didn't give a shit, and just left midway through). i still got into really good public school, and my parents didn't give me a whole lot of shit for it, but yes they still bug me about it and i still get the comparisons today (ooohh your friend you see he got into UPenn, or harvard or some shit). at some level i realized at a fairly young age that my parents would never disown me, so I had the real power. i got my fair share of whippings, but i just never gave a shit. eventually you become too old for the bamboo stick. but yes, i had to lie a lot and make up random ass shit in order to have some semblance of a 'life'. koreans are more strict than chinese though, so meh : /
To some degree, you and your parents are similar to me and my parents. When I was young, they put a lot of emphasis on school. I cared, but I didn't try a whole lot compared to the more academic Asians at my schools. The fact that they continue to make comparisons with me and their friends' children just made me sick. I dropped the thought of pleasing my parents and went on to do things MY way. I don't want to be some trophy that their parents showcase to their friends. I studied and work semi-hard in high school, but of course no where as much as the other student who took nothing but AP and honors classes. To this day, I do think what would have happened if I stayed on the hardcore academic student, but I am happy to where I'm at in college.
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On May 24 2011 09:41 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote:
But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide? asians dont view children as weak.
Yup. Asian parents also believe that their kids are capable of accomplishing anything with hard work. This confidence in their childrens' self-efficacy is also, imo, a form of love.
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EPT
