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Suicide in Korea - Page 15

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McStupid
Profile Joined May 2010
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-26 12:45:22
May 26 2011 12:44 GMT
#281
I find the status of education in Korea to be rather ridiculous. Thousands of students are being indoctrinated into a mindset of being the best to get a good job so the BIG COMPANY they work for becomes richer. And they get a small piece of the money as a reward.

I'm willing to bet a Korean high school graduate, with no college, who can start and run a successful self employed business, can do as well as or even better than the horde of mindless university graduates.

Remember the old Speed Racer cartoons? There's an example of an Asain mindset. When Speed would be in some tough spot over a race he'd think to himself "I'VE GOT TO WIN, I'VE GOT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT I'M THE BEST. I heard it in many episodes.

Do not think that going to big university and getting a job at the big company is the only way to go, I have known people who became self employed, or invested in real estate and bought and owned many housed that they rented out, and after a few years they did very well on money without much effort. Not even working 40 hours a week.
See "Online Video", the internet's comedy webshow, at www.loudmouthtim.com !
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
May 26 2011 14:00 GMT
#282
On May 26 2011 19:03 Anon06 wrote:
um this has been going on in japan for long time why's it suddenly special now that koreans are doing it?

Korea's suicide rate is higher.

I don't think I'm gonna bother with the rest of this thread...
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
JamesJohansen
Profile Joined September 2010
United States213 Posts
May 26 2011 17:03 GMT
#283
On May 26 2011 06:09 Holcan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 06:00 JamesJohansen wrote:
Its extremely sad... but I cant help but wish more people were this driven

Isnt this an oxymoron? You think its sad that people commit suicide, but you want other people to drive themselves towards suicide?


What? No you're putting words in my mouth. "Yeah guys I really hope more people commit suicide!". No. I just wish people had more drive to succeed in America today. Too many people are content with mediocrity
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
May 26 2011 17:06 GMT
#284
On May 26 2011 21:44 McStupid wrote:
I find the status of education in Korea to be rather ridiculous. Thousands of students are being indoctrinated into a mindset of being the best to get a good job so the BIG COMPANY they work for becomes richer. And they get a small piece of the money as a reward.

I'm willing to bet a Korean high school graduate, with no college, who can start and run a successful self employed business, can do as well as or even better than the horde of mindless university graduates.

Remember the old Speed Racer cartoons? There's an example of an Asain mindset. When Speed would be in some tough spot over a race he'd think to himself "I'VE GOT TO WIN, I'VE GOT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT I'M THE BEST. I heard it in many episodes.

Do not think that going to big university and getting a job at the big company is the only way to go, I have known people who became self employed, or invested in real estate and bought and owned many housed that they rented out, and after a few years they did very well on money without much effort. Not even working 40 hours a week.


[image loading]

User was warned for this post
TheGiz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada708 Posts
May 26 2011 17:20 GMT
#285
On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote:
Too many people are content with mediocrity


Holy crap THIS.

I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy."

I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.
Life is not about making due with what you have; it's about finding out just how much you can achieve. Never settle for anything less than the best. - - - Read my blog!
Zuxo
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden395 Posts
May 27 2011 12:02 GMT
#286
I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).

FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO.


Totally agree
I'm a mother******* lyrical wordsmith, mother******* genius
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
May 27 2011 12:26 GMT
#287
On May 27 2011 02:20 TheGiz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote:
Too many people are content with mediocrity


Holy crap THIS.

I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy."

I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.




Your version of success may not be theirs. What you think are "good things", they may not see as important. Some people would argue that they could be getting more out of life by doing things a certain way. Everyone is different and want different things out of life, and that's fine.

For example, aiming lower because you don't want the stress, for some people, is a better decision.
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
May 28 2011 02:36 GMT
#288
On May 27 2011 21:02 Zuxo wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).

FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO.


Totally agree


Yeah, well put. Thanks for sharing that.
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
May 28 2011 02:42 GMT
#289
On May 26 2011 10:58 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:
On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote:
Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach.


lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people.


Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students.

South Korea already has the highest concentration of Christianity in East Asia, and it's been like this for a long while now. The radically orthodox neo-Calvinist stream of Christianity that has become prominent in Korea is horrendous, yes, but if one doesn't fall into a no true scotsman argument, then it's pretty obvious that "faith based action" hasn't really done much for suicide rates within the country, which has raised steadily while Christianity also rose, all within the recent past.

If you're going to say something, please at least take a preliminary look at the culture. It would help us from discussing things that really have no meaning.
ZiegFeld
Profile Joined April 2011
351 Posts
May 30 2011 02:54 GMT
#290
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.
Xevious
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2086 Posts
May 30 2011 04:10 GMT
#291
Wow, this honestly just pisses me off. I don't know the statistics on this but if it's that much of a problem I could see this as actually being counterproductive.
Itzeddiieee
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)787 Posts
May 30 2011 05:18 GMT
#292
Yea, I read that article a few days ago (could have been yesterday)

I have relatives from home and I do hear from my parents about my cousin's testings and schools.
Really depressing
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 05:42:10
May 30 2011 05:39 GMT
#293
On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.


no need to validate my argument when you're extending darwin's theory of natural selection (a biological concept that explains the evolution of species) to the structure of society.

meanwhile the rest of us don't live in the 19th century.
ZiegFeld
Profile Joined April 2011
351 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 15:59:48
May 30 2011 15:59 GMT
#294
On May 30 2011 14:39 dreamsmasher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.


no need to validate my argument when you're extending darwin's theory of natural selection (a biological concept that explains the evolution of species) to the structure of society.
So your saying genetics have no play in the structure of society?

And no need to be rude, show a little class or at least pretend to
KaiserJohan
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1808 Posts
May 30 2011 16:19 GMT
#295
On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.


No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh?
England will fight to the last American
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
May 30 2011 16:28 GMT
#296
On May 27 2011 02:20 TheGiz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote:
Too many people are content with mediocrity


Holy crap THIS.

I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy."

I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.



Because for some people spending an extra 6-8 years in university during the prime time of their life instead of ending school early to enjoy their time is more favorable. School, studying and good grades are all fine and dandy, but these things fuel hate and anger in a lot of people. Including me.

It's not so much about willingly selling yourself short, it's about not putting yourself through something you know you will hate for years and years for an uncertain reward at the end. Most of what you learn in school is good only FOR school. Memorizing formulas and descriptions is mostly clutter when you get to the job market. You're essentially killing yourself to learn frivolous bullshit so that you're more attractive to an employer in a few years because you have bigger numbers on some transcript. That's not real life, and some people realize this early.
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
sceroh
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium182 Posts
May 30 2011 17:09 GMT
#297
On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.


No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh?


Actually I do agree with Ziegfeld;
dreamsmasher, you are messing up Darwinism with Eugenics.
Besides fittest doesn't have to mean strongest, it's the ability adapt to your environment.
And you cannot deny that nowadays the "safest" way to become successful in life is through academic success ...
I know that my argument are not extremely elaborated since I m quite busy at the moment, my puprose is just to point out the validity of Ziegfeld's argument.
TheGiz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada708 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 18:05:41
May 30 2011 17:21 GMT
#298
On May 31 2011 01:28 Twistacles wrote:
Memorizing formulas and descriptions is mostly clutter when you get to the job market. You're essentially killing yourself to learn frivolous bullshit so that you're more attractive to an employer in a few years because you have bigger numbers on some transcript. That's not real life, and some people realize this early.


That is real life, actually. That piece of paper is a ticket to any job I want. If you and I were to apply for the same job, I'd get hired before you. That means I have a source of income that I can use on trips, experiences, and opportunities.+ Show Spoiler +
But you'll argue that you don't want some high tech 6 figure job - you want something a little more 'reasonable.' So let's apply for a worse job. I've worked 10 jobs in 10 different industries in the last 7 years. That's a lot of work experience. And I'm in university so I must be a hard worker. Looks like I got hired over you again.

So you say you've given yourself more time to do stuff by opting not to go to school. What do you think I've missed out on, really? The answer is nothing aside from a night out here and there.


These Koreans realize this. That's why they devote so much time and effort to studying; the opportunities afterward are limitless.

It must take a lot of effort to maintain delusions like you do.
Life is not about making due with what you have; it's about finding out just how much you can achieve. Never settle for anything less than the best. - - - Read my blog!
divinesage
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore649 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 17:35:26
May 30 2011 17:31 GMT
#299
I don't know. What can the government do? Even if they tried to change things it's already embedded the the culture. Asian culture places academic excellence very highly, even if the government were to somehow transform the system around, the horrible competition will still exist, it's just the way the people as a collective view things.

University here is the same thing. It is horrible to run through one semester knowing that there are people around you who study all day long, and it becomes worse when it comes to examinations. People study from 8 am in the morning till midnight every day till the exams are over, just to get that nice grade. The ugliness surfaces when people actually don't help you in your work because they want to be ahead of you.
ZiegFeld
Profile Joined April 2011
351 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 17:40:11
May 30 2011 17:35 GMT
#300
On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:
On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:
On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote:
It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.


this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.


No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh?
Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes.

And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread.
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