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I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. There is nothing inherently wrong with this attitude, but I think the government should put certain structures in place to check the ill effects of the pressure that it brings especially to younger people. Usual incidence of suicide often occur before college, where student experience TREMENDOUS pressure to enter Korea's triumvirate of prime universities, called SKY (Seoul, Korea, and Yonsei universities). Pressure intensifies as the year approaches November, where the national exam for universities are conducted. To understand how serious Koreans are about this, it is one time of the year where ALL flights are canceled. ALL. ALL traffic are routed away from exam centers, and one will go to jail if he/she makes noise during this day, no matter the reason. Last year, a total of 146 student died last year of suicide.
For its part, the government is instituting nationwide psychological assistance programs to deal with this. The goal is to obviously provide a support structure for the students in time of great pressure. The great irony here is that, students facing the prospect of taking the exams, they would rather study all day and all night. Going for a psychological session is an utter waste of time at this point. In fact, official record supports this. It is during this time of pressure when visitations and sessions are fewest. Of course. The immediate solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Most importantly, this is a vivid call to review the education system in Korea. The long term solution here is for the government to enforce a system where first, majority of the Koreans have access to quality education, and second, university standards be improved across the board so students have the option among a healthy number of excellent universities and not be limited to SKY. The road towards this is tough and complex, but it is something that must be done, soon.
Here is an English article I found on the topic: + Show Spoiler +DAEJEON, South Korea — It has been a sad and gruesome semester at South Korea’s most prestigious university, and with final exams beginning Monday the school is still reeling from the recent suicides of four students and a popular professor. Academic pressures can be ferocious at the university, the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, known as Kaist, and anxious school psychologists have expanded their counseling services since the suicides. The school president also rescinded a controversial policy that humiliated many students by charging them extra tuition if their grades dipped. After the last of the student deaths, on April 7, the Kaist student council issued an impassioned statement that said “a purple gust of wind” had blown through campus. “Day after day we are cornered into an unrelenting competition that smothers and suffocates us,” the council said. “We couldn’t even spare 30 minutes for our troubled classmates because of all our homework. “We no longer have the ability to laugh freely.” Young people in South Korea are a chronically unhappy group. A recent survey found them to be — for the third year in a row — the unhappiest subset among countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The Education Ministry in Seoul said 146 students committed suicide last year, including 53 in junior high and 3 in elementary school. Psychologists at the university said very few students had sought counseling in recent days because of the time crunch brought on by finals. Ironically, during this period of maximum stress, therapists were handling only a handful of cases, mostly for anxiety. “Remember that the students here are still very young and they haven’t had much experience with unpredictable situations,” said Kim Mi-hee, a staff psychologist at the campus counseling center, who estimated that about 10 percent of Kaist students had come to the center for help. “To deal with problems they tend to lock into rumination mode. “But they’re so smart and so bright, they actually cope with stress pretty well. They have great capabilities of insight, so once they do get treatment, it can go pretty fast.” But there is still no full-time psychiatrist on call, and Kaist professors receive no training on how to spot overstressed or depressed students. Even the entryway to the counseling suite can feel somewhat less than welcoming. Recent visitors found the front door partially blocked by a dead tree in a broken ceramic planter. South Korea as a whole ranks first among O.E.C.D. nations in suicide and is routinely among the leaders in developed nations. Subway stations in Seoul have barriers to prevent people from jumping in front of arriving trains, and eight bridges in the capital have installed closed-circuit suicide-watch cameras. Suicides of singers, models, beloved actors, athletes, millionaire heiresses and other prominent figures have become almost routine in South Korea. A former president, Roh Moo-hyun, threw himself off a cliff in 2009 after losing face with his countrymen. But the suicides of the four Kaist undergraduates — three jumped to their deaths and a 19-year-old freshman overdosed on pills — have stunned the nation in a profound and poignant way. (The professor, a biologist who was reportedly being audited for the misuse of research funds, hanged himself on April 10.) The competition for a place in a leading university begins in middle school for most South Korean students. More than 80 percent of Korean young people go to college, and parents here spend more money per child on extra classes and outside tutoring — including military-style “cram schools” — than any other country in the O.E.C.D. The pressure builds to a single day in November, when a national college entrance exam is held. Some mothers pray at churches or temples throughout the day as their children take the test, which is given only once a year and lasts nine hours. The South Korean Air Force even adjusts its flight schedule so as not to disturb the test takers. The ultimate goal for most students is acceptance at one of the so-called SKY schools — Seoul National, Korea or Yonsei universities. In South Korea’s status-conscious society, a degree from a SKY school is nearly a guarantee of a big career and lifelong prosperity. Pedigree is everything. But Kaist is different. The university pays no regard to the national exam and instead recruits almost all of its students from among the elite seniors at special science-oriented high schools. Kaist admits only about 1,000 freshmen each year. A personal interview, high school grades and recommendations from principals count the most. Kaist students are academically gifted, to be sure, but they are also seen as the future leaders of Korea’s vaunted technology-driven economy. In a sense, once they gain entrance to Kaist, the students become national treasures. As a result, many feel a huge (and sometimes crushing) burden to live up to the country’s expectations. The statement by the Kaist student leaders even referred to Kaist students as “the future luminaries of Korea’s sciences.” The pressures can become too much for some students, especially those who have always been academic superstars but suddenly find themselves struggling to excel against much stiffer competition. “They’ve always been No. 1 in high school, but once they get to Kaist maybe they’re No. 40, or No. 400, and they realize they can’t possibly keep up,” said Oh Kyung-ja, a Harvard-trained professor of clinical psychology at Yonsei University. “The competition can be cruel.” Suh Nam-pyo, a renowned mechanical engineer who taught for many years at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, became president of Kaist in 2006. He soon instituted a series of changes aimed at modeling Kaist after M.I.T. and other world-class science and research universities. He mandated, for example, that all courses would be taught in English. That move led to campus-wide consternation because not all students and faculty members were fully fluent in English. Mr. Suh also engineered a system that required students to pay extra tuition for each hundredth of a point that their grade point average fell below 3.0 (based on a 4.3-point system). All students pay a token fee each semester, Kaist administrators said, but otherwise their tuition is free, financed by government scholarships. Under the so-called punitive tuition program, a bad semester could cost a student’s family thousands of dollars. The program, which was applauded at first, has since led to deep humiliation and anxiety among many students. Those who struggled and lost their full rides suddenly saw themselves as losers. Some critics, calling it ruthless, even blamed the program for the recent suicides. Mr. Suh, faced with withering criticism, recently ended most parts of the tuition plan, and the school announced that some courses would now be taught in English and Korean. source
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I had no idea it was such a big issue... 146 students committing suicide purely based on academic pressure? Woww...
I'm sad now
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And he're I am sitting on my ass when I should be studying, I take my easy life for granted.
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wow. 146 is a lot of students. i know academics is really important but wow. i'm pretty speechless.
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As I learn more about Korea, I'm amazed and at times, disturbed, about what my biological mother made me leave behind when I was adopted and sent to the US.
This is one of those times where I am disturbed.
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3 elementary school kids is pretty sickening. Also the system of having to pay more for tuition for each hundredth of a point below 3.0 is awfully ridiculous.
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They need to abolish the strict hierarchy between universities. The Korean gouvernement should try to boost weaker universities so that everything balances out. Personally I think the Korean school system is not just perverted but only detrimental. Basically the only thing you seem to learn there is how to memorize facts the rest gets more or less neglected.
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I've always thought that the Korean academic system was such bullshit, especially when I talk with my friends who are coming out of that system. By my American standards it just sounds so inhumane.
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Quite a terrible predicament :/. I hope there will be something that can sway people from this sort of action some way or another.
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i'm not sure if it isnt mentioned in OP or the article but i want to point out finance troubles play a part too.
just watched this on MBN.
the college tuitions in korea have risen 30% in the past 4 years while majority of the school do not accept credit cards, cash only for tuitions. there is a 24 month plan but with 30% interest. only 1 out of 15 schools take credit card but limited to a few certain cc companies that has ties with the school. school claims that 1.5% transaction fee is too much of a burden.
i really hope cultural revolution takes place to change parent's view on academic achievements (ie. its ok to do music, its ok to breakdance, its ok to be an artist), make going to school fun and enjoyable, not a do or die institute.
as a 9 year old in korea. i went to school at 8am, finished at 2pm, went to afterschool from 3 to 8. 6 days a week.
longer days for my older sister and brother. USA felt like heaven.
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they are really doing it the hard way
at the same time we are doing it the real soft way which makes us fall behind those ambitous countries
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Yeah it is pretty sad but it is a cultural thing and unless peoples attitudes change then its just going to continue. Maybe in 10 years people will have different feelings towards tertiary education.
I also agree that the psychological session is a waste of time but not because "people would rather study". I think it is because it is even as much as an embarrassment to be seen with a psych as it would to do poorly in a test.
And wow at Suhs program... it doesnt work because students are graded with the bell curve. So you are punishing the majority of students no matter what you do. Great scheme for making money though.
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Imagine the kids who give up school for whatever reasons to play starcraft. Success in starcraft is probably their new life, since they could not get to a good school. How many of us could play Starcraft with our lives and future at stake.
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I'm assuming Korea implements a test system similar to that of China, just one entrance exam, and your admittance solely depends on the score? I always thought that the one-test system fails for numerous reasons...
The suicides are extremely unfortunate, but at the same time, nothing short of an education reform will change this
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@ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced.
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Canada13389 Posts
I feel bad for those who feel they need to take their own lives due to school pressures. Perhaps there needs to be a generational change which looks to remove some of the pressures associated with which university one attends and which takes away the additional charges for being below 3.0. Furthermore, there should be more support by way of mental health initiatives to help those who have issues regarding how they feel about their own personal performances.
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suicide is also one of the (most? not exactly sure but top 2) leading causes deaths amongst asian americans, males in particular.
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On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced.
on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more.
asians take a very different stance on education from westerners at it reflects. asian americans have higher median income than whites, statistically score higher on standardized tests, and we have an overwhelming presence at any top school, this all within ONE generation.
i'm not going to list the negatives, there are many that I can list but I would go into them too much here.
i would say 95% of my friends who were asian who i grew up with went to either top state universities or ivy league caliber schools.
but i would say most of my white (er non asian) friends who were also strong academically were much stronger all around.
i could list a few examples of differences in parenting style:
1) when i was ~13? i got sent to an SAT camp. 2) i attended school on saturday for about 4 hours (chinese school so a mix of language/culture/math). 3) my parents assigned me homework from when i was a kid until middle school. in fact i was GLAD to go to school because of how relatively easy school was compared to home. 4) had to practice piano for like 2 hours/day 6 hours/day before competitions. 5) i took something like 12? AP tests in high school. although my parents didn't technically force me to this, it was something i felt like i had to do. i considered this (and my parents strongly reinforced this) that this was NORMAL (i.e. if i ever argued that very few % of ppl do this, tey would just say well those are lazy people who have no future etc...)
these are just a few things i guess that are quite (normal) for a lot of asian americans that i would guess your average white kid probably didn't experience. i'm not saying i didn't have a life or that i didn't rebel etc... but that's a whole different story.
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That's pretty severe. But then again, I have no idea how you can just tell a culture to back off on the studying. It's almost like telling SC progamers to chill out and don't practice 12 hours a day. As long as there is competition and the ceiling is so high you have no choice but to work your ass off.
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I feel extremely horrified that the students feel that there is so much pressure that their only option is to take their own life. In such a status-driven society, I can only imagine the anxiety they have before those tests.
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Often, students are escorted by police, especially if students don't think they will arrive at the test centre on time. Since the test is almost a life-or-death exam for students, the preparation for it is so secure and strict that since its beginning from 1993, Suneung questions were never leaked. Questions are made by chosen professors and teachers, who are locked in a hotel with blacked windows, no communication and a full library of questions until the end of Suneung.
This is hardcore
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This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly.
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On May 24 2011 08:26 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more.
thats probably true, but i feel like having lots of good students is more important to the german government than having as many toplevel students as possible
our final secondary-school examinations always get easier so that more people pass them and everyone has the possibility to go to university. i think its too easy nowadays. everyone is able to do it without making a real effort.
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I had a friend that was the child of Korean immigrants, and he told me of this pressure. He had gotten accepted into MIT but his mom would hear nothing of it because of all the Yale/Harvard brand recognition (despite the fact that he was going to be a programmer and MIT is way better for that field of study). Some of his friends that were also Korean Americans were also at a really precarious emotional state when it came to their academic performance, one told me that every time he walked under power lines he wished they'd collapse on him.
I'm glad they're doing something about it, I just hope it's not too late.
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Damn, 146 suicides is a lot. I like the idea of emphasizing the importance of education but Korea really needs to look after it's students more then this.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. Hard to objectively measure what country produces "better students," but tests like these provide some light into international comparison of education systems. Korea has always been ranked around the top ever since these were conducted.
http://ourtimes.wordpress.com/pisa/
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@ Dreamasher: I think there might be a small difference between american asians and the typical Korean student though. From what I´ve seen, it`s very hard to enter a top notch Korean university but once you are in (given that you pay the tuition fees^^) it`s hard to drop out. So most Korean students neglect their hard working attitude and laissez faire takes over. At least until they reach their final year where they have to absolve language certificates for future jobs. What`s more importnt is that you are good at networking. Also critical thinking or good essay writing skills are not really required in the Korean system.
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Atleast they don't lock people into rooms for 3 days and slide food under the door and the tests aren't brute force memorization like the old Han Civil Service Exams back in the day.
Its almost as hard as working under Kespa.
*On Topic* A lot has been talked about or proposed but its a cultural thing that expresses itself in these sorts of expectations so its a difficult if not impossible thing to change. :\
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what is the usual plan for a student that doesn't make it into one of those 3 universities? military? i know it is required anyways for some.
does the family shame them and disown them?
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On May 24 2011 08:15 isM wrote: 3 elementary school kids is pretty sickening. Also the system of having to pay more for tuition for each hundredth of a point below 3.0 is awfully ridiculous.
Agreed the part where 3 elementary kids committed suicide is what shocked me. The oldest kids in elementary school are what like 12? How can someone that young be so depressed to even think about killing themselves? Let alone know what/how to go about doing it.
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So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one.
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Mr. Suh also engineered a system that required students to pay extra tuition for each hundredth of a point that their grade point average fell below 3.0 (based on a 4.3-point system). All students pay a token fee each semester, Kaist administrators said, but otherwise their tuition is free, financed by government scholarships.
Under the so-called punitive tuition program, a bad semester could cost a student’s family thousands of dollars.
This seems so brutal, I can't imagine what would happen if a system like that were put into effect here in the US. No one knows what real pressure is like until they go to a school there I guess.
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On May 24 2011 08:45 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ Dreamasher: I think there might be a small difference between american asians and the typical Korean student though. From what I´ve seen, it`s very hard to enter a top notch Korean university but once you are in (given that you pay the tuition fees^^) it`s hard to drop out. So most Korean students neglect their hard working attitude and laissez faire takes over. At least until they reach their final year where they have to absolve language certificates for future jobs. What`s more importnt is that you are good at networking. Also critical thinking or good essay writing skills are not really required in the Korean system.
what i'm saying that though is that yes as an asian american i probably only went through a fraction of what an actual asian goes through but the attitude and culture is still the same. on average our parents are more strict and it really takes a lot of effort in order to have a 'balanced' life.
i don't want to overgeneralize too much, but on average i would say white parents are more supportive of their children's interests and believe a bit more in 'innate' potential, whereas asians (at least immigrants) generally don't believe those things matter.
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On May 24 2011 08:25 dreamsmasher wrote: suicide is also one of the (most? not exactly sure but top 2) leading causes deaths amongst asian americans, males in particular. I'm going to guess you meant asian americans below a certain age (I hope?)
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On May 24 2011 08:26 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more. asians take a very different stance on education from westerners at it reflects. asian americans have higher median income than whites, statistically score higher on standardized tests, and we have an overwhelming presence at any top school, this all within ONE generation. i'm not going to list the negatives, there are many that I can list but I would go into them too much here. i would say 95% of my friends who were asian who i grew up with went to either top state universities or ivy league caliber schools. but i would say most of my white (er non asian) friends who were also strong academically were much stronger all around.
NO. Don't confuse the Korean Academic system with Korean culture. Korean universities and Asian universities in general are bad compared to the top US/European university. We all know it. That is why Asians study so hard to get there and why the OP puts such emphasis on students getting into the top 3 universities. The top 3 are nowhere near as good as Americas top 3 but top 3 in Korea is still better than average korean universities that dont even have an international presence.
If you are asking as to whether children raised that way are better academically then I wouldnt know. University's prove their strength by the research they have done and we know that the best universities arent from Korea. I don't know the ethnicity of the people that have done the research and even if they were all asian I wouldnt make a link to one race or culture being superior cos those Asians may have grown up in the country that they study.
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On May 24 2011 08:22 T0fuuu wrote: And wow at Suhs program... it doesnt work because students are graded with the bell curve. So you are punishing the majority of students no matter what you do. Great scheme for making money though. If you run a scheme like that you shouldn't mark to a bell curve. It is possible and in many cases preferable to mark based on absolute rather than relative attainment.
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On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, most often the "humility" or the desire to do 'good' or the desire to "contribute" comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization but a relevant one.
i think you are being too harsh here. it is certainly more complicated than that, i never felt UNLOVED by my parents, but i grew to understand that people are deterministic in many ways, it is indeed extremely difficult to see above your culture and make the choices that are actually best for you.
you cannot just openly judge a culture and say its fundamental principles are wrong just because you don't understand them. there are positives and negatives of both cultures, most of my asian friends are pretty well adjusted -- but at the same time if you asked me if i were to raise my kids in the EXACT same manner? the answer would be no.
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On May 24 2011 08:51 T0fuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:26 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more. asians take a very different stance on education from westerners at it reflects. asian americans have higher median income than whites, statistically score higher on standardized tests, and we have an overwhelming presence at any top school, this all within ONE generation. i'm not going to list the negatives, there are many that I can list but I would go into them too much here. i would say 95% of my friends who were asian who i grew up with went to either top state universities or ivy league caliber schools. but i would say most of my white (er non asian) friends who were also strong academically were much stronger all around. NO. Don't confuse the Korean Academic system with Korean culture. Korean universities and Asian universities in general are bad compared to the top US/European university. We all know it. That is why Asians study so hard to get there and why the OP puts such emphasis on students getting into the top 3 universities. The top 3 are nowhere near as good as Americas top 3 but top 3 in Korea is still better than average korean universities that dont even have an international presence. If you are asking as to whether children raised that way are better academically then I wouldnt know. University's prove their strength by the research they have done and we know that the best universities arent from Korea. I don't know the ethnicity of the people that have done the research and even if they were all asian I wouldnt make a link to one race or culture being superior cos those Asians may have grown up in the country that they study.
your comments don't really reflect what i was saying at all.
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Article really made me stop and just think. Thanks for the share. Terrible to see this, though it is nonetheless enlightening.
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On May 24 2011 08:44 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. Hard to objectively measure what country produces "better students," but tests like these provide some light into international comparison of education systems. Korea has always been ranked around the top ever since these were conducted. http://ourtimes.wordpress.com/pisa/
Firstly yay for New Zealand.
What's curious is our secondary school system is pretty god awful. From my experience (going to two high schools, one of which was probably top 5 in the country) we got very little homework and were hardly penalised if we didn't complete it. The system of assessment is widely disliked and teachers are vocal about its shortcomings. There is hardly a sense of urgency to get good marks, most are happy coasting on "achieved" which is essentially a 50%-65% mark. Hell, I even failed my final year of high school simply because I had already had university entrance. Looking back that was pretty stupid, but it does demonstrate the sense of disregard New Zealand has for secondary school education.
Curious to see such a contrast be relatively insignificant in raw results. Maybe there's a better explanation.
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On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one.
This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant. Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree.
I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial.
Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day
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I really respect South Korea's culture of work ethic, but I don't see why education would be so critical even in an incredibly competitive society that you have no shot at even moderate success at anything without that certificate. There ought to be some other schools you can get into and then just climb the ladder after you actually start working. Surely your employer would want to promote you if you simply showed you were hard working and capable even if you only went to the 4th/5th best school in the country. Why doesn't this work in Korean society, or if it does where does all that stress come from?
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Just food for thought here don't shoot me.
Teenage suicide has the same problem in the states but it doesn't follow the same forms, instead of suicide due to academic pressure its usually peer pressure and fitting in. I think instead of just narrowly viewing this issue as a korean problem it really is just psychologically dealing with students before suicide. Depression is a REAL disease, however its the most underrepresented, most people downplay it which results in suicide.
Asian culture will always have students striving for the best in grades, nothing wrong with that, teachers and parents just need to watch for warning signs and yellow/red flags to prevent these things from happening as often
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On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day 
Yeah, it's part of the high context versus low context culture differences. Communication between parents and children can be very different ("Eastern" vs "Western"), though not necessarily stereotypically so. UFO does have a point, however. At a certain threshold, it becomes less a result of love than a competitive urge for success, accomplishment, etc. I'm not saying either you or UFO are wrong; I'm merely stating that it's never black and white, and there is a grey area here as well in terms of cultural differences. We're all extremely intelligent individuals, but sometimes one must realize that our perspectives may or may not be somewhat polarized and/or close-minded.
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On May 24 2011 08:57 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:51 T0fuuu wrote:On May 24 2011 08:26 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 24 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ imperator: does the Korean sýstem produce better students (at academic level)? Personally I`m not really convinced. on average yes, when you compare the top with the top no. in fact i would argue at the top, westerners shine a bit more. asians take a very different stance on education from westerners at it reflects. asian americans have higher median income than whites, statistically score higher on standardized tests, and we have an overwhelming presence at any top school, this all within ONE generation. i'm not going to list the negatives, there are many that I can list but I would go into them too much here. i would say 95% of my friends who were asian who i grew up with went to either top state universities or ivy league caliber schools. but i would say most of my white (er non asian) friends who were also strong academically were much stronger all around. NO. Don't confuse the Korean Academic system with Korean culture. Korean universities and Asian universities in general are bad compared to the top US/European university. We all know it. That is why Asians study so hard to get there and why the OP puts such emphasis on students getting into the top 3 universities. The top 3 are nowhere near as good as Americas top 3 but top 3 in Korea is still better than average korean universities that dont even have an international presence. If you are asking as to whether children raised that way are better academically then I wouldnt know. University's prove their strength by the research they have done and we know that the best universities arent from Korea. I don't know the ethnicity of the people that have done the research and even if they were all asian I wouldnt make a link to one race or culture being superior cos those Asians may have grown up in the country that they study. your comments don't really reflect what i was saying at all.
He asked about the Korean Academic system and if that produces good students. So that would be korean schools, teachers, curriculum etc.
You replied with saying that Asians in the American Academic system do well in university. But this has nothing to do with the American system and has everything to do with being asian and having a culture that puts a huge priority on education.
So what makes good academic students? Is it from their own hard work and study? Or is it from educational systems that can teach them better? I said I dont know. But we know which universities have the best students/research and they arent Korean or Asian.
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On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day 
the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary
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On May 24 2011 08:09 AimlessAmoeba wrote:I had no idea it was such a big issue... 146 students committing suicide purely based on academic pressure? Woww... I'm sad now 
I know its crazy. I just completed IB and that was stressful, imagine them.
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On May 24 2011 09:12 zobz wrote: I really respect South Korea's culture of work ethic, but I don't see why education would be so critical even in an incredibly competitive society that you have no shot at even moderate success at anything without that certificate. There ought to be some other schools you can get into and then just climb the ladder after you actually start working. Surely your employer would want to promote you if you simply showed you were hard working and capable even if you only went to the 4th/5th best school in the country. Why doesn't this work in Korean society, or if it does where does all that stress come from?
community colleges do not really exist in asia, as far as i know. from what my cousins tell me there is university (a lot of pressure to get into, very difficult to get into), and then there are technical schools.
work is completely opposite though, american work culture is much more strenuous/difficult than in asia from what i know.
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I think the part of this that can be fixed is the huge importance and respect Koreans have for older people. The first Korean friends I met online years ago made it pretty obvious to me how important age was to them and that older members being shown respect was critical to their culture. This is stupid, age is just a number, wisdom is what is important. Like being a low rank in the army constantly having to show respect to others and not getting enough yourself will cause depression and suicide. It's annoying to have to watch these progamers at the age of 25 have their parents describe them as good children because they support their parents by giving them all their profits from gaming. In America it's the complete opposite children at college spoil away all their parents money and then leave.
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The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah.
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I am not surprised at all since so many of my friends have told me about it. Not trying to be an ass or anything since I know how much pressure Koreans, or Asians in general get from their parents, peers, and the rest of society. It is great to be competitive in academics, but this is too much for a young person to endure since they are really doing it the hard way.
I find it sad how a name and prestige of a school makes people so suicidal. Not speaking about the Korean school system, I understand people want to go to a "good" school, but it's ridiculous what lengths people go to. I personally think as long as you go to a school and get a degree, it's fine since you got a higher education. Now, I understand that every school has different things to offer, but I have some friends who want to go to so and so school based upon the school's name, athletic teams, etc.
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On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day  the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary 
Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous.
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With that much cases of suicides, I think we should be asking what the parents are doing to ease the pressure their children are getting from school. It is the parents' responsibility to always check on how their children are doing and to guide them through these kinds of troubles. Very sad news...
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Clearly this is the modern Sparta
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On May 24 2011 09:28 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day  the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary  Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous.
actually my parents were not as extreme as yours. to be honest i was the 'bad' asian kid, i had really low grades (high SAT scores though), and took a shit ton of AP courses my junior/senior year. my mom actually made me RETAKE my sat's despite getting a 1520/1600 at the time. (actually did worse the second time cuz i didn't give a shit, and just left midway through). i still got into really good public school, and my parents didn't give me a whole lot of shit for it, but yes they still bug me about it and i still get the comparisons today (ooohh your friend you see he got into UPenn, or harvard or some shit).
at some level i realized at a fairly young age that my parents would never disown me, so I had the real power. i got my fair share of whippings, but i just never gave a shit. eventually you become too old for the bamboo stick.
but yes, i had to lie a lot and make up random ass shit in order to have some semblance of a 'life'.
koreans are more strict than chinese though, so meh : /
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On May 24 2011 09:26 Deadeight wrote: The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah.
This is somewhat true if all your motivation is extrinsic. But "happiness" is also almost completely relative, so you can't say that people working hard to achieve a lofty goal isn't a course to reach happiness, because to me and a lot of other people, it is. Haven't you ever worked super hard for something and been happy upon completion? Its the same thing. By the way, I'm pretty sure dentists/doctors don't have to hit 60 to start "doing something."
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But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide?
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On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote: But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide?
asians dont view children as weak.
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On May 24 2011 09:33 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:28 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day  the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary  Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous. actually my parents were not as extreme as yours. to be honest i was the 'bad' asian kid, i had really low grades (high SAT scores though), and took a shit ton of AP courses my junior/senior year. my mom actually made me RETAKE my sat's despite getting a 1520/1600 at the time. (actually did worse the second time cuz i didn't give a shit, and just left midway through). i still got into really good public school, and my parents didn't give me a whole lot of shit for it, but yes they still bug me about it and i still get the comparisons today (ooohh your friend you see he got into UPenn, or harvard or some shit). at some level i realized at a fairly young age that my parents would never disown me, so I had the real power. i got my fair share of whippings, but i just never gave a shit. eventually you become too old for the bamboo stick. but yes, i had to lie a lot and make up random ass shit in order to have some semblance of a 'life'. koreans are more strict than chinese though, so meh : /
To some degree, you and your parents are similar to me and my parents. When I was young, they put a lot of emphasis on school. I cared, but I didn't try a whole lot compared to the more academic Asians at my schools. The fact that they continue to make comparisons with me and their friends' children just made me sick. I dropped the thought of pleasing my parents and went on to do things MY way. I don't want to be some trophy that their parents showcase to their friends. I studied and work semi-hard in high school, but of course no where as much as the other student who took nothing but AP and honors classes. To this day, I do think what would have happened if I stayed on the hardcore academic student, but I am happy to where I'm at in college.
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On May 24 2011 09:41 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote: But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide? asians dont view children as weak.
Yup. Asian parents also believe that their kids are capable of accomplishing anything with hard work. This confidence in their childrens' self-efficacy is also, imo, a form of love.
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On May 24 2011 09:41 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote: But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide? asians dont view children as weak.
Looks like my parents don't apply to that statement because they often look down on my brother and I, lol.
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On May 24 2011 09:43 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:33 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 24 2011 09:28 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:21 uberMatt wrote:On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day  the underlying tone of that first paragraph is scary  Sorry I did not mean to intimidate or offend anyone, but the fact that westerners pretty much have no understanding of asian culture can get very tiresome, especially when you hear some Asian stereotype joke everyday and can get made fun of (jokingly with friends, but still) for anything <100 or something equally ridiculous. actually my parents were not as extreme as yours. to be honest i was the 'bad' asian kid, i had really low grades (high SAT scores though), and took a shit ton of AP courses my junior/senior year. my mom actually made me RETAKE my sat's despite getting a 1520/1600 at the time. (actually did worse the second time cuz i didn't give a shit, and just left midway through). i still got into really good public school, and my parents didn't give me a whole lot of shit for it, but yes they still bug me about it and i still get the comparisons today (ooohh your friend you see he got into UPenn, or harvard or some shit). at some level i realized at a fairly young age that my parents would never disown me, so I had the real power. i got my fair share of whippings, but i just never gave a shit. eventually you become too old for the bamboo stick. but yes, i had to lie a lot and make up random ass shit in order to have some semblance of a 'life'. koreans are more strict than chinese though, so meh : / To some degree, you and your parents are similar to me and my parents. When I was young, they put a lot of emphasis on school. I cared, but I didn't try a whole lot compared to the more academic Asians at my schools. The fact that they continue to make comparisons with me and their friends' children just made me sick. I dropped the thought of pleasing my parents and went on to do things MY way. I don't want to be some trophy that their parents showcase to their friends. I studied and work semi-hard in high school, but of course no where as much as the other student who took nothing but AP and honors classes. To this day, I do think what would have happened if I stayed on the hardcore academic student, but I am happy to where I'm at in college.
it's quite funny because my parents have changed quite a bit from when I was young. they realized that there was more to success in western society than just studying and that to be truly 'successful' you need a mix of other qualities, however they never knew how to teach that me since they were not immersed in western culture. they basically told me at some point that they didn't/couldn't understand why certain things worked the way that they did, but they realize that there was a 'cap' to their success so to speak due to cultural/language barriers and if my generation were to be better than theirs, that it was essential that we grasp those concepts.
i kind of took that to heart, maybe in a way that they never really got. i get a lot of shit for it still, but in a kind of fucked up way i'm obeying my parents lol.
what i find to be truly odd is when i meet a white person whose parents are similar to mine or is socially awkward/etc...
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Is anyone surprised? I don't want to be insensitive but what could you expect to happen when you put as many as you can under as much pressure as you can? Some of them will break and its tragic its the price they pay for all there academic success. I get the impression that they want to treat the symptoms but not the problem. Korea is proud of their drive and they should be, its gotten them far. I don't know what else there is to say
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CEO's didnt get to where they are because they studied all day and night and did well in school. But because they know how to deal with people. important life lesson for you there folks  Too much focus on academics causes things like this. It's a shame when people think the world is crumbling down because they dont have a 4.0 GPA
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On May 24 2011 09:45 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:41 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 24 2011 09:40 Acritter wrote: But... they're just CHILDREN! Why should society be putting so much pressure on them they want to commit suicide? asians dont view children as weak. Looks like my parents don't apply to that statement because they often look down on my brother and I, lol. LOL. Thats not true. They look down on you cos they think it makes you stronger. I think my parents changed after my sister had a mental breakdown because she thought they didn't praise her enough, asians dont give much merit to something that is expected(you arent doing good because you are top 10, you are meant to be there anyways and dont need praise for that). Then she went and became a fundamentalist evangelist and is loved by god and the church.
Im treated much better now (they probably fear that i might go crazy and turn to god as well) but im also burnt out after dropping out of uni. Ill go back soon enough though I just dont know when and what to study.
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After reading all this, I just wanted to point out that not all Korean high schools are not like this. I go to an international school in Korea, which is ranked in the top 5 high schools in the nation. It also sends many kids to ivy leagues, SKY, Stanford, and other top universities annually. I'd say about 15 kids went to ivy leagues/Stanford last year. Not sure about SKY. But in this school, there is really barely any homework, and most of the time, kids ask teachers to push back due dates, and it works like 80% of the time. The only times we do study hardcore is during AP and SAT studying times. We live in a dorm, and the rest of the time, we're all either playing games on our laptops, or playing some kind of sports.
I lived in the US for 9 years, and I transferred to this school in the middle of my junior year at an american high school. And to be honest, I think I worked harder at the american high school I was in. Also, its not like the kids in my korean high school are all about academics. The kids here are really good at basketball and other sports.
I know this is just one example of a high school in Korea, but I have a friend that has friends that go to the number 1 ranked high school in Korea, and he says that the kids there also have a lot of free time as well. Also, when I did go to a regular Korean school in first grade for three months, I didn't have hagwons or anything, and school was an alright place. It certainly wasn't hell.
At the beginning, when I first got accepted into this school, I was nervous because the schedule told me we had to study until like 2 am, and wake up at 6 am. I was obviously scared as hell and tried to get myself prepared for hardcore studying, but i was wrong. We have class from 8 am to 4 pm, but most of those classes consist of movies, playing games on computer, and other things. Then, after 4, we stay till 6 for "self study" and we eat dinner. After that, we can pretty much chill, or study if we have homework, exams, etc. At first, I was pretty shocked that such a school would do this. What I'm trying to say is that although the Korean school system might be advertised as studying 18 hours a day or something, the real amount of time studying would probably be around 1 hour to 7 hours, depending on whether there are exams.
And yes, I am writing this during world history time, along with other kids listening to music/playing games/internet browsing. I'm not dissing on my new school at all. It's a great school that gives kids a lot of free time, and really gives a lot of guidance on what to do to get accepted into elite colleges. My point was to just say that not all Korean school are like the ones described above.
Oh yeah, and Kaist is really the ONLY college in Korea that has such a tough system. Yonsei, Korea, and Seoul University are known for their relaxed learning styles and drinking. A few students have even drunk themselves to death.
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On May 24 2011 09:58 VPCursed wrote:CEO's didnt get to where they are because they studied all day and night and did well in school. But because they know how to deal with people. important life lesson for you there folks  Too much focus on academics causes things like this. It's a shame when people think the world is crumbling down because they dont have a 4.0 GPA
I dont think there are more uneducated CEOs than educated CEOs.
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On May 24 2011 10:00 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:58 VPCursed wrote:CEO's didnt get to where they are because they studied all day and night and did well in school. But because they know how to deal with people. important life lesson for you there folks  Too much focus on academics causes things like this. It's a shame when people think the world is crumbling down because they dont have a 4.0 GPA I dont think there are more uneducated CEOs than educated CEOs. Im not saying they aren't educated... Im sure there would be plenty more qualified people that could fill the positions. But i am saying its alot more about how you deal with people.
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On May 24 2011 10:02 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:00 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:58 VPCursed wrote:CEO's didnt get to where they are because they studied all day and night and did well in school. But because they know how to deal with people. important life lesson for you there folks  Too much focus on academics causes things like this. It's a shame when people think the world is crumbling down because they dont have a 4.0 GPA I dont think there are more uneducated CEOs than educated CEOs. Im not saying they aren't educated... Im sure there would be plenty more qualified people that could fill the positions. But i am saying its alot more about how you deal with people.
not everyone becomes CEOs. a very small fraction less than 0.01% of american society lol.
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@ Tazza: But your school seems to focus soley on getting you into international universities or can you also make it into Korean ones?
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On May 24 2011 10:02 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:00 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:58 VPCursed wrote:CEO's didnt get to where they are because they studied all day and night and did well in school. But because they know how to deal with people. important life lesson for you there folks  Too much focus on academics causes things like this. It's a shame when people think the world is crumbling down because they dont have a 4.0 GPA I dont think there are more uneducated CEOs than educated CEOs. Im not saying they aren't educated... Im sure there would be plenty more qualified people that could fill the positions. But i am saying its alot more about how you deal with people.
Isn't that kind of obvious that successful CEO's have a little bit more than "regular" CEO's? I mean all CEO's are very well educated; they're usually graduates from ivy league schools or other top graduate school. So of course something like being able to communicate more effectively is going to help.
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wow this is depressing, im really speechless about this
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I think the biggest problem with the whole system is the heavy emphasis on standardized tests. I'm sure plenty of extremely successful people have gotten good (but not amazing) scores on things like the SATs. Ultimately, though, the skills that really matter in the real world is what you can accomplish/produce, rather than what [somewhat] arbitrary test score you have. It's just a real shame that many people (not just Koreans) don't realize this.
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Pressure to excel and submit oneself to community is a strong component of many Asian cultures. Lets also remember the suicides amongst the working classes in China, where workers are suscepted to the ills of a growing industrial economy: demanding work hours, few breaks, horrible conditions. But another issue is the relentlessness of Factory management in China on top of those historical issues with industrialized work. Managers actually have had to fence in windows so workers would not suicide themselves.
Recent evidence of this in the West has come about through the popularity and outrage of the book Tiger Mothers, a book about how a woman decided to raise her children "the chinese way" by being overtly tough on them. I mean not to say that being tough on your kids is wrong or that every parent/school/factory is demeaning to their subjects; how you raise your child is dependent on your social class and the specific child, but what's clear is that the emphasis on individual success for country/society/etc. has had drawbacks that need attention to.
Great thread, and considering how much Starcraft relies on the Asian scene, we should show our support for our fellow students and workers.
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I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO.
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I still remember living in korea and being told by my parents that education was the only step to success. I don't think people understand the amount of pressure that is put upon you if you start to head in a downward trend. My daily schedule was to go to school from 8 to 4 studying at school from 4 to 8 and then i would go to tutoring for about another 3 to 4 hours, and i was only in middle school. But if you didn't study and/or you didnt succeed than you have no future in a society such as south korea. There is a good reason for all of this pressure, its because the parents want what's best for their children. But the suicide rate in korea is ridiculous and must be dealt with. This is such a depressing thing to see within my country.
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I remember doing a research report on the subject of student suicides, although I believe I focused mine on Japan (not sure it was probably the beginning of HS) But for me to still remember doing that report shows you how much it impacted me to learn of the pressure that other cultures around the world put on students. At that moment in my life I felt really academically pressured by my parents, and that report taught me not only about another culture, but it made me examine my own personal situation and give me the know-how to understand my emotions better
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I am currently a high school student and I have suffered from a long term condition that causes my body to make it unable for me to focus and remember things in school. This was caused by getting sick, coming back and having the pressure of twice the work and test makeups. Now obviously this happening once isnt a problem, but recently I have been ill quite and bit and it got bad. I know this isnt the same level of work as koreans probably have, but it is still an example of pressure in school. Because of this mental and body illness my grades started slipping from As down to Cs and few Ds. I wasnt able to turn in work purely for the reason that I did not understand it and couldnt remember from class. The pressure to be like my friends and live up to my parents expectations caused me to become suicidal. I am thank full that my treatment for this problem did not go unchecked and the effects are beginning to reverse. Now the results of this temporary condition look at possible summer school and thats just so I can qualify for the AP classes I would like to take. The pressure of school is extreme at times and sometimes its just not your fault.
So thats my little story about pressure in school. Hope I can give another perspective ^^
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On May 24 2011 10:04 Irrational_Animal wrote: @ Tazza: But your school seems to focus soley on getting you into international universities or can you also make it into Korean ones? There is an international class, and a domestic class. Both are similar except for their curriculum. I guess the domestic class study a bit more. But they also play sports and others too.
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On May 24 2011 10:09 Krampus wrote: I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO. Why cant we have people like you running our country? :D well said. I completely agree.
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This pressure must be hard to stand... Those students are pretty mindfucked they should smoke a joint enjoy life instead of killing themselve... I know a lot of people who did terreble in scool/life and have the greatest time, but maybe thats not possible in korea. It really makes me curios whats the difference between our countrys i mean we have a lot of lower class workers who are happy in life whats up in korea u cant have a happy life if u havent studyed, is there such a big gap?
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On May 24 2011 10:09 Krampus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO .
very well put. I'm guessing you're a premed student for the right reasons, which is really hard to come by these days..
On May 24 2011 10:22 Chilling5pr33 wrote: This pressure must be hard to stand... Those students are pretty mindfucked they should smoke a joint enjoy life instead of killing themselve... I know a lot of people who did terreble in scool/life and have the greatest time, but maybe thats not possible in korea. It really makes me curios whats the difference between our countrys i mean we have a lot of lower class workers who are happy in life whats up in korea u cant have a happy life if u havent studyed, is there such a big gap?
this is hard to answer but I guess the biggest difference stems from where the two find their sources of happiness. In Korea, a widespread perception is that happiness comes from external sources: job, school name, social status.. One's image is everything there. The idea that happiness can come from within no matter how incongruent it is with the external world is just not a part of the korean culture. That's not to say ALL koreans believe this of course, but it's definitely a characteristic of our culture.
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We need to send LiquidTyler over there and give them a lesson on how to Chilllllllllll.
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It's just too bad.
There's a huge amount of sacrifice that goes into Korean parenting. Korean parents will often take on two or three jobs to send their kids to those cram schools and hagwons. When the kids take those sample tests and they don't score as highly as they would like, they feel like they failed. It's absolutely the worst feeling in the world to know that all of your hard work was all for naught. It really is. However, I know that a lot of the kids who go through this rigorous pressure eventually want the same thing for their children. I think it just comes from the culture that there's so much pressure behind these exams and getting into those universities.
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I have alot of Korean friends in China, and their grades are all insane. The reason : Academy. I guess its a mixture of their culture and their huge passion to do well that drives them that way. Some of my friends go to academy all the way to midnight. Its crazy.
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Is the number of 146 the total number of teen suicides per year, or the number where they know it has a accademic background? It's at all very sad, but the number does not sound that high and keep in mind other countries may just count suicides in a different way and say they had other reasons (raping, drugs, family violence). As I know, korea has not more school amok death, than any other western country.
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On May 24 2011 08:21 imperator-xy wrote: they are really doing it the hard way
at the same time we are doing it the real soft way which makes us fall behind those ambitous countries
Having slightly better reading comprehension, or being somewhat more talented at arithmetic, does not mean that your child has any better chance of having a happy, fulfilling life and a successful career in their future. Social skills are vastly more important, and you're not going to develop those if you're studying 16 hours a day. A focus on ultracompetitive academics is a terrible phenomenon that destroys people's lives, promotes generational depression and unhappiness and emotionally cripples its victims for life.
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You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag.
http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/
My stance is this: the Asian education system promotes working hard, but not necessarily working smart. There is an emphasis on brute memorization and getting the answer, rather than actually learning the material. I had asked my friends if that was the case, why were the Asians so dominant in the IMO competitions. Apparently IMO questions all have patterns, and Asians were trained since they were very little to be able to crack the code.
The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise.
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On May 24 2011 11:03 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China. Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise.
Obviously Japanese entrepreneurship lacks compared to a Western country like America, but it is still advanced compared to other Asian countries. I had read an article saying the Japanese recession actually helped this train of thought due to the impossibility of finding a job at a corporation, so people decided to start their own companies. You do see that often in China, but the overall majority is still just domesticated copies of U.S. ideas.
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On May 24 2011 11:07 kakaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:03 PanzerKing wrote:On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China. Are you sure about that? Japan is one of the least entrepreneurial nations in the world, due to their social dynamics. Over 80% of Japanese said that they would look poorly upon someone who tried to start a small business and failed, as opposed to over 80% of americans who responded the opposite. In Japan, the fear of failure and humiliation in front of one's peers and family dramatically outweighs the incentive to take a risk on a new enterprise. Obviously Japanese entrepreneurship lacks compared to a Western country like America, but it is still advanced compared to other Asian countries. I had read an article saying the Japanese recession actually helped this train of thought due to the impossibility of finding a job at a corporation, so people decided to start their own companies. You do see that often in China, but the overall majority is still just domesticated copies of U.S. ideas.
Interesting point about the recession. I know it's created one new sector of jobs - people who teach middle-aged workers how to go through a job application and accept the idea that being fired isn't a reflection on their skills as an employee. I suppose it's not surprising to see their prolonged recession shaking up social norms.
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They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary.
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This is unbelievable to me. As an american teenager, I was able to blow off high school and I still graduated and got into an excellent college. This is very tragic that young men and women are given so much pressure to succeed at a time in life where they are least able to handle intense stress. Any suicide that comes as a result of school pressure is a pointless, tragic waste of good minds.
I sincerely hope that academic institutions provide a way for students on the edge to take time away from school without making them feeling stigmatized.
Edit- I noticed Epik talking about how "Inner Happiness" or whatever you want to call it, is not a part of the korean culture. This fascinates me, because the idea that happiness comes from external factors like what kind of job you have or your measure of "success" in life, is really quite foreign to me. When I was growing up, my father would say to me "Ian, I don't care what job or career you have in life so long as you are passionate and happy. If you want to be a ditch digger, then I expect you to be the best damn ditch digger you can be, and that's fine"
This has always stuck with me, that the measure of success is not money or fame, but rather the passion you have and how you improve what you love. I guess I might just be rambling here, but it is so damn tragic to hear about people throwing their life away because they can't force themselves to fit the role that the culture demands of them.
Disclaimer- I am not a ditch digger.
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag. http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/My stance is this: the Asian education system promotes working hard, but not necessarily working smart. There is an emphasis on brute memorization and getting the answer, rather than actually learning the material. I had asked my friends if that was the case, why were the Asians so dominant in the IMO competitions. Apparently IMO questions all have patterns, and Asians were trained since they were very little to be able to crack the code. The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
i read this article as well, it really told me nothing new that i didn't already know.
china won't run into this problem for a good long while (probably at least a generation), because they are still industrializing (i.e. there is very little need to innovate because they will be able to maintain high levels of growth simply by copying the west). the real struggle comes after industrialization, when these countries need to innovate themselves in order to continue to grow.
south korea's own president has acknowledged this issue, i dont think that asians are blind to this, it will take time for shit like this to change.
i also don't think you can overgeneralize this too much, i have a lot of asian friends (mostly all asian american, but some immigrant ones as well) who do not adopt this way of thinking -- i certainly don't think the asian race is doomed to be stagnant for eternity.
i think a lot of people don't understand that the older generation sees it this way as well. if it weren't for the fact that my parents tried so incredibly hard to be able to provide for myself the way they have (by whatever means i guess you can be the judge), then i would not have the 'freedom' so to speak in order to do what i like, and allow the next generation to do even more, if that makes sense.
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On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary.
lol?
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Being in a good university is extremely important in southeast asian countries.
For example, in Hong Kong, I know parents who have spent tens of thousands of dollars to get kids into high rated pre-schools in good neighbourhoods so that they are prepared for the future. Stuff like this is why kids feel so obligated to give their money to their parents.
Commiting suicide is mainly because given such good preparation kids feel like they've failed their parents. Every spare hour for weeks before exams is spent with a tutor who will ensure that the kids know EVERY little thing that could be, has been and will be on the exam. Honestly, unless a change in the culture happens, I don't think anything will happen. I don't like what's happening but I don't think last minute counselling will help at all.
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I see the same problems in america. Many koreans from my high school had the "harvard or bust" mentality. I'm not sure what the culture is in korea but it sounds pretty harsh to me. Something should be done about it.
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Certain types of strict Asian parents are the worst, and some kids just can't imagine what life would be like if they didn't do well in the final exams and their parents make it out to be the end of the world to the kids. It's terribly stupid and pathetic at the same time, and not a problem unique to Korea, Taiwan and Japan are very similar as well but they doesn't seem to be making such a big fuss as much anymore about student suicide rates. Cram school are still way too many because of the incompetent educational system that allows for these things to exist in such abundance, some kids literally go home at 9 or 10pm almost every day after cram school.
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Wow, 146 students is a lot for such s short period of time...It really worries me that there is so much academic pressure in Korea. I mean I've heard of some bad cases with my Korean-American friends, but I can only imagine how much worse it is in Korea. I really hope that something can be done about it and the number decreases. =\
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They have some type of mandatory military service for young men I think. Do these University kids get to serve, or they become exempt if they they enroll? Confused.
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Really sad stuff. Rather than being a problem strictly with asian culture, it sounds like a large part of it is a problem with students not having many options besides those top 3 universities. Here in California we have a three-tiered university system that makes college accessible for everybody. I know a lot of people who take their first 2 years at a community college, then get the bachelor's at a CSU, and then their Master's/PHD at a UC. At no point is there any reason for a student to give up all hope because they didn't make it to their uni of choice. Of course our state has a lot of problems, but I do think our uni system is very well set-up.
I understand there are similar problems in China and Japan, also from the fierce competition to get into a very small number of elite universities.
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On May 24 2011 11:58 WarMonkey0 wrote: They have some type of mandatory military service for young men I think. Do these University kids get to serve, or they become exempt if they they enroll? Confused. I think they can defer service due to university, but you certainly don't get to dodge it.
Same deal in Singapore, except you have to go to university after army barring specific circumstances. Lotsa suicides here, too, but not for that reason - academic pressure is pretty prevalent in society.
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:
The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg.
You actually think mark zuckerberg is innovative?
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On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture.
Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education.
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On May 24 2011 12:17 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:
The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. You actually think mark zuckerberg is innovative?
Let me guess, he stole your idea for social networking? What a lying thief!
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I've heard about japan having problems with this as well but I had no idea it was an issue in korea as well.
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My school has a Korean student killed himself just a few months ago cos he can't graduate in time(4 years). Actually he lived in the dorm just next to my building. In general, East Asian philosophy is putting shame on one that doesn't archieve good academic result. It is not the fear of being not success in life later that make student suicide. Its the shame that make people wants to suicide. Asian parents really like to compare their children with others, so more shame if you don't success and that put a tremendous pressure on their children.
All countries within the Chinese-sphere culture(China, Korea, Vietnam,Japan) have this problem and I don't think anything will be changing soon, since the thinking of success due to academic archieve has been going on in these countries for centuries.
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What's the thing where they say leaving a fan on overnight will kill you?
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On May 24 2011 12:54 johanngrunt wrote: What's the thing where they say leaving a fan on overnight will kill you? Just an urban myth, has nothing to do with this.
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On May 24 2011 12:21 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture. Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education.
I'm not trollin' man. I'm very religious. A tenant of Christianity is that you are loved for free. If these people need to know anything it is that they are loved for free. Not their academics, not their brains, their success, anything. Just for being them.
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On May 24 2011 13:09 GeneralissimoNero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:21 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture. Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education. I'm not trollin' man. I'm very religious. A tenant of Christianity is that you are loved for free. If these people need to know anything it is that they are loved for free. Not their academics, not their brains, their success, anything. Just for being them. Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture.
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Yeah, I was teaching English in Korea last year and basically everything you said in your OP is dead-on. I don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but they're in school from 8AM to 10PM every day in most high schools. That's 14 fucking hours of school 6 days a week.
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I'm a huge fan of competition, in games and sports. But I hate competition in life. I think that so many societies today are focused on capitalism and competition (which have done great things btw), that people sacrifice much of their enjoyment in life so that they can be more successful. Unfortunately success does not lead to happiness, and if you don't live for happiness, what else is there to live for?
This sounds a lot like what Korea is like, and I really think it is a shame. I feel a lot of the competition in America, and I choose to not try to be successful just for success's sake, which leads to a lot of consequences in society =/ I can only imagine it is much worse in Korea, and I really sympathize with the people over there who are being driven by the mindset of their society, even if it doesn't translate into them being happy.
Suicide is always such a tragic topic. My prayers are going out to those in Korea who are under stress and considering suicide, and also to the families of those who have.
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Wow man. Something seriously wrong is happening there. Who in their right mind would rather be DEAD than do poorly in a test?
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Does anyone know if, statistically speaking, the high rate of suicide is specific to South Korea or do other Asian countries suffer as well?
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On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag. http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China.
Except your wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation#Measures
And there doesn't seem to be anything special about facebook, unless making millions of dollars is your definition of innovation and ingenuity.
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It's a sad state of affairs
In each generation, there is only a small proportion of kids that are born with extraordinary natural talent. For these people, difficult exams are just a way for them to stand out and shine.
Unfortunately this forces the rest of the multitudes of smarter-than-most but not amazing kids to study really hard and face extreme pressure to beat out all the other folks. If you're not a math or physics prodigy that can figure out difficult problems quickly on the spot, then you're going to have to study hard and solve many problems in advance...
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This attitude must not be absolutely 99% prevalent in Korea (?) since some parents are allowing their children to play starcraft for a living, and if they're not superstar gamers, they don't make much to support themselves.
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On May 24 2011 13:13 Caphe wrote: Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture.
Nah man I get it. Eastern thought is one of my favorite things to study. The little amount of worth they put on life in place of honor is actually inspiring. Stuff with samurai ya know? But Western thought has deeply rooted itself in Korea, more so than the Eastern thought now. If any country is still rooted in Eastern thought its Japan or China, but Korea, not so much. Also in topics of self worth religion pretty much always needs to be brought up. Its just kinda standard.
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One thing that I think students who are studying for something huge like that - but it's not something easily taught - is that if you feel like you're really anxious and having difficulty dealing with the pressure, seeking counseling is very likely going to help your exam performance more than another couple hours of studying.
I see similar things happen at MIT and Harvard (I live nearby) for similar reasons - ultra competitive environment with very high academic expectations sometimes... yeah. And those schools DO have a lot of "safeguards" to try and reduce it. These programs help - they range from 24/7 available suicide hotlines to having professors having basic training to recognize severe depression, but until there are zero deaths, no amount of "help" is fully sufficient.
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Think the count is even higher in Japan
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On May 24 2011 13:21 frodoguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:00 kakaman wrote:You should all read this month's cover article in NY Mag. http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/The main issue I have with Asian culture is the fact that these skills translate to a competent contributor to society, but not necessarily one that promotes innovation and ingenuity. Case in point: Korea has arguably the best high speed internet connection in the world, yet there are no Korean equivalents to Mark Zuckerberg. The lone exception in Japan, which has a few entrepreneurs over the years, but that country has a slightly different social dynamics than Korea/China. Except your wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation#MeasuresAnd there doesn't seem to be anything special about facebook, unless making millions of dollars is your definition of innovation and ingenuity.
that is an incomplete definition of innovation. asian countries have a strong record of adopting existing tech and perfecting it, but not creating paradigm shifting technologies, which is what is generally meant. this is a problem is actually acknowledged by many asian leaders, even a significant number of older generation asians feel this way.
facebook actually has incredible potential, how is this even debatable lol.
and yes from an economic standpoint, dollars is how you measure innovation, or at least innovation that is valued by society.
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Sounds like the government should fix the way the school system is setup and make programs to help reach out to the public to teach parents and all others involved that school is important but not that damn important, not important enough to die for. No reason to stress out entire generations of school kids this way, Asian country or not it seems ridiculous. If the adults want to hold themselves to insanely high standards than do so but don't force feed stress to young people who aren't as capable of handling it mentally (although physically seem as though they would be better equipped for of course). Just my two cents.
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Agreed with the above post. There should be a seminar for teachers and parents to recognize signs of depression. I'm in a highschool support club and I'll say straight out, most people don't want suicide, they want help. They make the signs obvious too.
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suicide is everywhere, some people are just retarded like that
User was banned for this post.
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On May 24 2011 13:13 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:09 GeneralissimoNero wrote:On May 24 2011 12:21 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture. Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education. I'm not trollin' man. I'm very religious. A tenant of Christianity is that you are loved for free. If these people need to know anything it is that they are loved for free. Not their academics, not their brains, their success, anything. Just for being them. Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture. Wouldn't matter anyway. Singapore has a high rate of academic-related suicide, and is a very Christian country - alongside other traditional cultural values. Obviously isn't Korea, but the issue of academic pressure is prevalent throughout east Asia, so the example holds.
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On May 24 2011 13:34 FireBoltHero wrote: suicide is everywhere, some people are just retarded like that I am sure people in top university and actor, actress that make lots of money are not retarded. You should not post something insensible like this in this kind of thread.
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On May 24 2011 13:36 Dfgj wrote: Wouldn't matter anyway. Singapore has a high rate of academic-related suicide, and is a very Christian country - alongside other traditional cultural values. Obviously isn't Korea, but the issue of academic pressure is prevalent throughout east Asia, so the example holds.
Hm. Then its probably just the academic force. ¯\(°_o)/¯
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On May 24 2011 13:36 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:13 Caphe wrote:On May 24 2011 13:09 GeneralissimoNero wrote:On May 24 2011 12:21 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture. Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education. I'm not trollin' man. I'm very religious. A tenant of Christianity is that you are loved for free. If these people need to know anything it is that they are loved for free. Not their academics, not their brains, their success, anything. Just for being them. Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture. Wouldn't matter anyway. Singapore has a high rate of academic-related suicide, and is a very Christian country - alongside other traditional cultural values. Obviously isn't Korea, but the issue of academic pressure is prevalent throughout east Asia, so the example holds. I don't know for sure so I can't argue with you. But Singapore, most people there are Chinese which is rooted even deeper with Confucianism teaching. I dont think this problem will go away anytime soon. The gorvement can setup measure to prevent it, but to wipe out a deep rooted though from people is no easy task, esp in this kind of time where finding a decent job seems harder and harder.
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On May 24 2011 13:25 GeneralissimoNero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:13 Caphe wrote: Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture. Nah man I get it. Eastern thought is one of my favorite things to study. The little amount of worth they put on life in place of honor is actually inspiring. Stuff with samurai ya know? But Western thought has deeply rooted itself in Korea, more so than the Eastern thought now. If any country is still rooted in Eastern thought its Japan or China, but Korea, not so much. Also in topics of self worth religion pretty much always needs to be brought up. Its just kinda standard. what the f*** is this?
1. The little amount of worth they put on life in place of honor is actually inspiring. 2. Stuff with samurai ya know? ??? 3. But Western thought has deeply rooted itself in Korea, more so than the Eastern thought now. 4. If any country is still rooted in Eastern thought its Japan or China, but Korea, not so much. 5. Also in topics of self worth religion pretty much always needs to be brought up. Its just kinda standard.
Every single statement you made is FALSE. What little amount worth are you saying here? It is a principle. In Korea, a life without honor is not a life at all. Samurai stuff??? Wow. Korea is not rooted in Eastern thought and Japan is China is??? This did it man. Obviously you dont know a single thing about what you are saying. This is not about religion. End of story. You got it all wrong man.
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On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about?
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On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? I agree. Thats the long term and deep root solution to the problem
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On May 24 2011 13:40 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:36 Dfgj wrote:On May 24 2011 13:13 Caphe wrote:On May 24 2011 13:09 GeneralissimoNero wrote:On May 24 2011 12:21 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 11:13 GeneralissimoNero wrote: They need more of the Lord. Academic success is obviously a crappy reason to live life. Korea, China, and Japan have had an incredibly high rate of suicide for a long time because of the pressure they receive. You should talk to some of the Korean exchange students in your schools. I asked these two Koreans once why they decided to come all the way to America, and they just said "My Father told me to. I must obey his wishes". Scary. I dont know if your trolling, and why you would given the issue at hand. But while were at it let me say this as well. Korea doesnt have a state or even a dominant religion. Some are Catholics, others are Buddhists, but most are just ambivalent about his concept. This is also reflected in our lives and our point of views. I am sure that if you conduct a random survey around the world, Koreans would rank in top 5 of people who totally rely on themselves. This has outlook in life is helped greatly by the economic condition in that Koreans underwent in 60s-70s, people who are parents now and elderlies. This determined how a children of the 80s-90s view life. Success is the primary motivator among Koreans. And not any success or some vague spiritual/well-being one, it means explicitly financial success. There is the singular idea millions of Koreans grew up to. And the only way to achieve this is to get to SKY university. As someone also mentioned, this is reinforced by the general decadent nature of universities and schools that are not SKY and the financial requirements to get to a "decent" university. In effect, if you don't get there, and don't maintain a good grade, you will not only be financially set back, you will also be a burden to your family (another serious Asian/Korean trait). The situation here is complex as it goes deep into the very heart of Korean culture. Fortunately, action are being done, although not fast and effective enough sometimes. And a new generation of Koreans are changing their perspective in life and success. But make no mistakes about it, up to this point, people will literally die to get a good college education. I'm not trollin' man. I'm very religious. A tenant of Christianity is that you are loved for free. If these people need to know anything it is that they are loved for free. Not their academics, not their brains, their success, anything. Just for being them. Dont bring religion into this. Eventhough Korea has alot of Christian, the deep root in their culture is still Confucianism which value many things differently than western culture. Wouldn't matter anyway. Singapore has a high rate of academic-related suicide, and is a very Christian country - alongside other traditional cultural values. Obviously isn't Korea, but the issue of academic pressure is prevalent throughout east Asia, so the example holds. I don't know for sure so I can't argue with you. But Singapore, most people there are Chinese which is rooted even deeper with Confucianism teaching. I dont think this problem will go away anytime soon. The gorvement can setup measure to prevent it, but to wipe out a deep rooted though from people is no easy task, esp in this kind of time where finding a decent job seems harder and harder. You're quite correct, but the majority of the country also identifies as Christian (as do a large number of the schools) - traditional values are certainly still present, but it's enough to say that religion isn't a decider in this.
The overall mentality of linking academic success to personal worth is extremely heavily ingrained, and is as unlikely to change as it would be for the US to adopt East Asian academic mentalities. There's no pressure for it to do so - the 'study hard, get into school, get a job etc' path does work for a lot of people here, because that's how the system is set up.
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On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there.
The system is extremely fair, just incredibly harsh due to how competitive it is.
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On May 24 2011 13:40 GG.NoRe wrote:
what the f*** is this?
1. The little amount of worth they put on life in place of honor is actually inspiring. 2. Stuff with samurai ya know? ??? 3. But Western thought has deeply rooted itself in Korea, more so than the Eastern thought now. 4. If any country is still rooted in Eastern thought its Japan or China, but Korea, not so much. 5. Also in topics of self worth religion pretty much always needs to be brought up. Its just kinda standard.
Every single statement you made is FALSE. What little amount worth are you saying here? It is a principle. In Korea, a life without honor is not a life at all. Samurai stuff??? Wow. Korea is not rooted in Eastern thought and Japan is China is??? This did it man. Obviously you dont know a single thing about what you are saying. This is not about religion. End of story. You got it all wrong man. [/QUOTE]
Whoa calm down man. I'm an ignorant American, and what I learn about East Asia, I learn from the internet. Let me restate what I mean.
I said that Korea isn't AS rooted in Eastern thought as Japan and China. It is still rooted REALLY deep though. But you guys have a higher rate of Christianity (the epitome of western thought) than both China and Japan combined multiplied 5 times over. And I'm not making that statistic up.
1. There was nothing wrong with this statement. Dulce et decorum est. A lot of people believe it. 2. I'm an anime geek, I like samurai stuff. I've read all the lame books. They care about honor quite a lot. No disagreeing there. 3. Western thought is deeply rooted in Korea. You have more Christians than Buddhists. 4. Yes. What you said is correct. 5. Yes, it is. Psychiatrists have to have a basic understanding of religion, because yes, patients will bring it up a lot.
As you said though, its not about religion. I guess its more personal for me. Moving from Atheism to Christianity for me was really important to me and helped my depression a lot more than the pills. I just assumed that it might be the same for others. But as the Singapore statistic pointed out, it is not.
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I of course can't speak for everyone, but as a Chinese student I've never heard of anybody doing what they do because "it's Confucian" (literally or figuratively). I really do think that as somebody said near the start of the thread much of the attitude is simply based on how poor these countries have been in the recent past. Even as they industrialize a large proportion of the population of the East Asian countries is left behind. Only a generation ago Asia was in every economic and academic sense (the senses which allow parents to be human and not 'tiger mothers' clawing antelopes to feed their young) behind. Two generations ago Korea and China were getting destroyed by Japan, which itself got destroyed in turn. I realize that there was the whole imperial bureaucracy in ancient China which ran along similar lines, but I think the Chinese peasantry were much worse off in those times as well than their western counterparts (historians may want to call me out on this).
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On May 24 2011 13:29 RaLakedaimon wrote: Sounds like the government should fix the way the school system is setup and make programs to help reach out to the public to teach parents and all others involved that school is important but not that damn important, not important enough to die for. No reason to stress out entire generations of school kids this way, Asian country or not it seems ridiculous. If the adults want to hold themselves to insanely high standards than do so but don't force feed stress to young people who aren't as capable of handling it mentally (although physically seem as though they would be better equipped for of course). Just my two cents.
You HAVE to make school a priority and make it into a habit else you're putting yourself in a disadvantage. You will never realize your full potential if you do not push to the limit.
The US keeps asking themselves: "what's wrong with our school system? why is it lacking to other countries?" ...a lot of the policies done seem to center around Teachers and pay. Make the teacher "better" is their solution. But imho, its probably the lack to push the kids to the limit.
(anyway will probably elaborate more one day when I have the time).
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I think this quite a common phenomenon in asian countries, around may-june here, you'll see something like this in the paper about people commiting suicide because they only got 85% in maths. The worst is when people think they did badly, end their life, and later they end up topping their school or whatever.
There is just way to much pressure on studies, as in, if you get somewhere around 90% your okay, but below that is plain average. Quite weird. And whats worse is people who get into these top schools dont realize that it's going to get tougher there, because everyone is going to be a slogger, and when they dont do as well as they expect to, you end with headlines like student found hanging in college room, forgetting the fact that even if they go down to the last guy in their class, they are still regarded to be higher than a vast majority of the population.
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On May 24 2011 13:52 GeneralissimoNero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:40 GG.NoRe wrote: what the f*** is this?
1. The little amount of worth they put on life in place of honor is actually inspiring. 2. Stuff with samurai ya know? ??? 3. But Western thought has deeply rooted itself in Korea, more so than the Eastern thought now. 4. If any country is still rooted in Eastern thought its Japan or China, but Korea, not so much. 5. Also in topics of self worth religion pretty much always needs to be brought up. Its just kinda standard.
Every single statement you made is FALSE. What little amount worth are you saying here? It is a principle. In Korea, a life without honor is not a life at all. Samurai stuff??? Wow. Korea is not rooted in Eastern thought and Japan is China is??? This did it man. Obviously you dont know a single thing about what you are saying. This is not about religion. End of story. You got it all wrong man.
Whoa calm down man. I'm an ignorant American, and what I learn about East Asia, I learn from the internet. Let me restate what I mean. I said that Korea isn't AS rooted in Eastern thought as Japan and China. It is still rooted REALLY deep though. But you guys have a higher rate of Christianity (the epitome of western thought) than both China and Japan combined multiplied 5 times over. And I'm not making that statistic up. 1. There was nothing wrong with this statement. Dulce et decorum est. A lot of people believe it. 2. I'm an anime geek, I like samurai stuff. I've read all the lame books. They care about honor quite a lot. No disagreeing there. 3. Western thought is deeply rooted in Korea. You have more Christians than Buddhists. 4. Yes. What you said is correct. 5. Yes, it is. Psychiatrists have to have a basic understanding of religion, because yes, patients will bring it up a lot. As you said though, its not about religion. I guess its more personal for me. Moving from Atheism to Christianity for me was really important to me and helped my depression a lot more than the pills. I just assumed that it might be the same for others. But as the Singapore statistic pointed out, it is not. Please don't do this here.
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On May 24 2011 13:59 Redmark wrote: I of course can't speak for everyone, but as a Chinese student I've never heard of anybody doing what they do because "it's Confucian" (literally or figuratively). I really do think that as somebody said near the start of the thread much of the attitude is simply based on how poor these countries have been in the recent past. Even as they industrialize a large proportion of the population of the East Asian countries is left behind. Only a generation ago Asia was in every economic and academic sense (the senses which allow parents to be human and not 'tiger mothers' clawing antelopes to feed their young) behind. Two generations ago Korea and China were getting destroyed by Japan, which itself got destroyed in turn. I realize that there was the whole imperial bureaucracy in ancient China which ran along similar lines, but I think the Chinese peasantry were much worse off in those times as well than their western counterparts (historians may want to call me out on this).
Sometimes I feel like we over-analyze everything in the west. We have doctors who study teen behaviors and lame stuff like that. My mom went to this seminar once and heard the speaker say that students don't raise their hand in class because we feel that we would be placing ourselves in the "nerd" clique, and that there is pressure to be academically neutral. When all along the reason we don't raise our hands in class is because we don't give a damn what the answer to number 27 was.
Here we are, deciding that the reason you guys have so much academic pressure is because of the Eastern way of thought rooted deeply in the thousands of years of history. Lol. Guess its not that big of a deal.
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On May 24 2011 14:03 GG.NoRe wrote: Please don't do this here.
I'm sorry. I'd still like to participate in the thread though. No more religious discussion.
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On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. The system is extremely fair, just incredibly harsh due to how competitive it is. You are both correct actually. I think in essense what VIB is suggesting is for the universities to be universally improved, so that there is no mad dash for millions of students to get to the 3 top universities (where barely 10000 are able to get in every year). It will take the cooperation and support of everyone to do this. Still, the competition is really brutal. if you havent experienced being grade school, middle school or high school in Korea, you have no idea what academic competition means. (Ok this may exaggerate, but Im merely demonstrating),
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
that is why i told my parents i don't want to live in korea. not just students, but lots of blue-collar workers suffer the same fate because work is tough as fuck.
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On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions.
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On May 24 2011 14:02 dartoo wrote: I think this quite a common phenomenon in asian countries, around may-june here, you'll see something like this in the paper about people commiting suicide because they only got 85% in maths. The worst is when people think they did badly, end their life, and later they end up topping their school or whatever.
There is just way to much pressure on studies, as in, if you get somewhere around 90% your okay, but below that is plain average. Quite weird. And whats worse is people who get into these top schools dont realize that it's going to get tougher there, because everyone is going to be a slogger, and when they dont do as well as they expect to, you end with headlines like student found hanging in college room, forgetting the fact that even if they go down to the last guy in their class, they are still regarded to be higher than a vast majority of the population.
Its more than not having the grades though. Its the fact that you give your whole heart and soul to get the grade and when you don't get it; all you can think of is "OK. Il fucking work EVEN HARDER next time"
Then you go on to work harder, but you still don't achieve your objectives and you tell yourself: "Il work EVEN MORE than last time". (it becomes a cycle)
Add extreme anxieties, constant stress, constant want to put every effort you can to attain your objective (whatever that may be).
The "I will work harder next time" eventually fucks your mood and leads to inevitable depression when you see your friend get a lot better grade for literally 1/10th of the work (+he has the social life that you want but sacrificing it in order to achieve your "goals"). You're in the library working 10-20x harder and longer than everybody else. You're left in your own isolated world trying so hard to do better, trying so hard to catch up...... but you just can't seem to catch up. And you wonder "is it worth it? Whatever, all this hard work should be worth it. I just need to work harder and things will get better... IF I can pass X or Y exam, then I can go get my social life back AND get the job I want".
You give it all you got and its still not enough. And you keep thinking the same thing over and over "Slack off less, work harder and you'l achieve your goals".
"I don't care I have to sacrifice my health, everything. Hard work will be ALL worth it in the end."
And you keep thinking along those lines and STILL not get the results you want, you just end up into a mad depression, makes you feel insane, unfulfilled, etc...
When after a few years of extreme hard work, the big test comes... Boom, you didn't get in, you didn't get it and you end up asking yourselves "wow, wtf was the point of all the sacrifice/suffering/hard work that I've did in the last X years??!"
...and you just end up cracking. (yeah my apologies for the poor grammar, 1:40am here and tired)
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On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about?
koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top.
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Sad for the individuals
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On May 24 2011 14:32 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions.
that's only partially true. there's a reason why ivy league schools dont just increase their enrollment, and generally why they're all so damn expensive.
south korea is also a substantially smaller population/size than the united states. the HUGE educational system that we have here in the U.S. was created largely due to the GI bills post WWII which created a large demand for large universities. not only that but very prestigious universities usually have large endowments, facilities which take a very long time to establish (most of which are donations made by wealthy people who previously graduated). most 'good' schools in the U.S., even top tier public universities have been around for at least ~100 years (the original ivy leagues have been around almost since the founding of America).
this doesn't really exist in S.Korea. also you have to think that S.Korea has really become a major economic force in the last 30-40? or so years, things like educational institutions take not only alot of investment from a government perspective, but time as well.
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Afaik, getting into the top 3 uni in korea guarantees success in the country. So how does life turn out for those students that didn't make it into the top 3 uni in korea but made it to another uni?
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On May 24 2011 14:43 NIJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children.
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On May 24 2011 14:54 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 14:43 NIJ wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children.
i think culture definitely plays a bigger role than you think, but yes economic conditions are also a strong contributor. i definitely got my share of immigrant stories when i was growing up.
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On May 24 2011 14:50 frodoguy wrote: Afaik, getting into the top 3 uni in korea guarantees success in the country. So how does life turn out for those students that didn't make it into the top 3 uni in korea but made it to another uni? Still pretty good. I have a Korean friend that just went to a normal university in Korea and now hes working for Samsung and seems pretty happy about it when we talked. But if you have a foreign(US,UK) education or top Korean university, you will have much better chance out there. I believe in some thread MightyAtom said that if you graduate from top US school, you are godlike in Korea.
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i didnt mean to imply they have caste system today. Its been abolished since modern state was formed. But caste system ran through out hundreds of years of korean history. (양반, 노비, 백정, 상민 etc..). Koreans are ridiculously obsessive about their status in a social group. And that partly has to do with how their culture like caste forms your thoughts.
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On May 24 2011 14:54 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 14:43 NIJ wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children. Korean culture is steeped in Confucianism. Present day Korea still carries on the legacy of the Chosun era, and even if the class system has been dismantled the mentality that one must attain a higher social class and that this is to be achieved through academic study is pretty much a continuation of the governmental examinations of the Chosun era.
As for poverty, the vast majority of the Korean population lived in poverty during the Chosun era. The social situation of modern Korea is a display of the cultural mentality from Chosun carrying on into a modern capitalist nation and turned into a corrosive system. Now that there aren't any boundaries in social class, everyone is trying to become a modern day yangban to the most obsessive levels.
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a psych assessment is meaningless at this point. What needs to be in place is a self sustained and self replicating module to prevent this type of shit. Which means a strong social network for each and every student. If I had my way it would go all the way back to parenting and self-esteem shit, but parents will never want psychologists meddling with their parenting.
A more reasonable solution would be to teach the kids to watch out for each other. This means fostering an environment/monthly session to teach them how to have defenses-down conversations, and time for them to cooperate and figure out solutions for themselves. Essentially a support group, but minus the weird looks that gets you when you bring it up. This shit cant be forced or ordered into existence, they have to want to perpetuate it. It's about ceding control and crossing your fingers and hope it happens, which is not what most schools would be willing to do.
Although the inherent "caste" system in school hierarchies would fuck this up, but if you turn it into just a voluntary show up thing it might be seen as a "looser's club". I have no ideas for these hurdles but this is how i would envision a starting point.
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On May 24 2011 15:10 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 14:54 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 14:43 NIJ wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children. Korean culture is steeped in Confucianism. Present day Korea still carries on the legacy of the Chosun era, and even if the class system has been dismantled the mentality that one must attain a higher social class and that this is to be achieved through academic study is pretty much a continuation of the governmental examinations of the Chosun era. As for poverty, the vast majority of the Korean population lived in poverty during the Chosun era. The social situation of modern Korea is a display of the cultural mentality from Chosun carrying on into a modern capitalist nation and turned into a corrosive system. Now that there aren't any boundaries in social class, everyone is trying to become a modern day yangban to the most obsessive levels.
you summed it up better than i did. good point about entrance exam too, we've always been obsessed about studying in that way.
Not everyone can goto top 3 schools. Country full of doctors and lawyers, even if possible is useless. Not everyone has to be the fucking same.
Good thing is though, newer generations are already starting to culturally view lot of things differently from older generations. change is rapid in korea today, so there is hope. As these kinds of stories makes more headlines, hopefully newer gens will think more about the underlying issues at hand and change their perspective on things. maybe.
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Yeah, I certainly don't think Korea is in an unrecoverable position. If anything, modern Korea has showed just how much explosive potential Korea has. We're still going through a lot of growing pains and Korea will have to find unique ways to respond to its problems.
Parents really need to curb the educational arms race they're engaging in though. Children are people, not tools for social advancement.
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the only thing that any government really needs to do is to make it so that their smartest children should have lots and lots and lots of babies
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On May 24 2011 15:15 Railxp wrote: a psych assessment is meaningless at this point. What needs to be in place is a self sustained and self replicating module to prevent this type of shit. Which means a strong social network for each and every student. If I had my way it would go all the way back to parenting and self-esteem shit, but parents will never want psychologists meddling with their parenting.
A more reasonable solution would be to teach the kids to watch out for each other. This means fostering an environment/monthly session to teach them how to have defenses-down conversations, and time for them to cooperate and figure out solutions for themselves. Essentially a support group, but minus the weird looks that gets you when you bring it up. This shit cant be forced or ordered into existence, they have to want to perpetuate it. It's about ceding control and crossing your fingers and hope it happens, which is not what most schools would be willing to do.
Although the inherent "caste" system in school hierarchies would fuck this up, but if you turn it into just a voluntary show up thing it might be seen as a "looser's club". I have no ideas for these hurdles but this is how i would envision a starting point. You have to start somewhere. And an immediate psych relief will surely weed out those in the process. Discussion groups is good, but it seems contrary to the culture at the moment. Unless being socially competitive is changed, i think something like that will be painstaking. But there is no doubt competitiveness should be channeled in a healthy way. Nonetheless, an education review should be in place.
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I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S
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Do students have only singe shot at the entrance exams or can they be repeated next year ?
Here we have leaving exams after HS, which are joke for anyone with a pulse and then most universities have their own exams or they rely on private sector to make one, which actually works quite well because you have multiple shots at it, provided you pay a fee every time and even if you don't make it, it's not uncommon to study something just to pass they year and then try again. Still, our schools aren't all that good worldwide:p I'm studying medicine which is probably one of the more difficult schools and even here if people get kicked out (10-40% in the first year) most just realize that there is stuff to do in the world besides studying or they go and get into some other school.
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On May 24 2011 15:43 Popss wrote: I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S What are you talking about, it's the same in Sweden (and probably in many other countries aswell) just not to the same degree as S.Korea.
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Never really cared so much about education after high school. I looked at my high school friends who were working their asses off just to get into UC schools with curiousity. Education does teach you to become better in the field you're interested in, but it doesn't teach you to be resourceful. If you know how to be resourceful, then you can pull those people who go into college and make them work for you so you can live a better life. Want to know why wealthy white people get so rich, that's the basic form of it.
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On May 24 2011 16:24 gullberg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 15:43 Popss wrote: I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S What are you talking about, it's the same in Sweden (and probably in many other countries aswell) just not to the same degree as S.Korea.
Oh please maybe my parents where just to nice to me but in terms of universities it really doesn't matter much which school you went to.
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On May 24 2011 16:47 Pleiades wrote: Never really cared so much about education after high school. I looked at my high school friends who were working their asses off just to get into UC schools with curiousity. Education does teach you to become better in the field you're interested in, but it doesn't teach you to be resourceful. If you know how to be resourceful, then you can pull those people who go into college and make them work for you so you can live a better life. Want to know why wealthy white people get so rich, that's the basic form of it. HAHAHA. I love this post because it demonstrates precisely how Koreans DO NOT think.
In a billion koreans, you wont find anyone who'll say this. That more than education or hardwork, its about your ability or resourcefulness. Case in point, look at BW interviews, you'll never see Jaedong or anyone say "well yeah I got creative and I had more ability and skills" Never. They always tell you that their victory is a product of practice and hardwork. At times, even for me, it sounds a bit routine like they have memorized it, but that is an honest truth. They really believe success is in the amount of work they put in, and not in some intangible factors. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just pointing out the clear cultural difference.
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On May 24 2011 17:07 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 16:47 Pleiades wrote: Never really cared so much about education after high school. I looked at my high school friends who were working their asses off just to get into UC schools with curiousity. Education does teach you to become better in the field you're interested in, but it doesn't teach you to be resourceful. If you know how to be resourceful, then you can pull those people who go into college and make them work for you so you can live a better life. Want to know why wealthy white people get so rich, that's the basic form of it. HAHAHA. I love this post because it demonstrates precisely how Koreans DO NOT think. In a billion koreans, you wont find anyone who'll say this. That more than education or hardwork, its about your ability or resourcefulness. Case in point, look at BW interviews, you'll never see Jaedong or anyone say "well yeah I got creative and I had more ability and skills" Never. They always tell you that their victory is a product of practice and hardwork. At times, even for me, it sounds a bit routine like they have memorized it, but that is an honest truth. They really believe success is in the amount of work they put in, and not in some intangible factors. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just pointing out the clear cultural difference.
As a Chinese-American who spent part of my childhood in Taiwan, I can attest that this academic pressure extends to pretty much all Asian countries, including China and Japan. It's quite disturbing and heartbreaking, because since it's the 'norm,' no one seems to be trying to do anything to change the system.
Even in Western countries, the 'strict Asian parents' are a stereotype/joke instead of treated as a real social problem that causes serious damage to kids.
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The fact that schooling plays SUCH a huge role in korea, and other countries is, I find, a really good thing. The problem is that most institutes have absolutely no idea how to teach to the minorities of the students. When I say minorities I mean those with learning disabilities, those that are gifted etc. There are many that just don't do well in school mainly because the school's techniques for learning and showing how you've learned are completely inadequate for them.
I find the only real remedy to this situation is for all teaching industries to re-vamp their entire programs to fit the society of now's students. Our systems are basically stemmed from the past which just aren't as applicable to today's economy and opportunities
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On May 24 2011 16:52 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 16:24 gullberg wrote:On May 24 2011 15:43 Popss wrote: I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S What are you talking about, it's the same in Sweden (and probably in many other countries aswell) just not to the same degree as S.Korea. Oh please maybe my parents where just to nice to me but in terms of universities it really doesn't matter much which school you went to.
Yeah in NZ all our (proper) universities are considered pretty much equal. Just depends where you want to live while you study.
There are some 'unitec' places that try to pass themselves off as unis but don't do enough actual research to qualify. Even these places aren't considered too bad depending on which subject you want to study. My brother got a degree from a unitec and managed to get CG jobs in England and now with Weta.
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Every time I read reports or stories like this, the BW pro gamer interviews echo in my mind. There's not a single one out there who doesn't have a phrase in it going along the lines of "I didn't play perfectly, so I must work harder" - even if the interviewee won 3-0.
These incredible work ethics come with a cost. And I'm not sure they can be kept without the presence of stress and sad events like described in the OP.
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On May 24 2011 14:32 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions. Not as much as you think.
The best schools are also the ones that take in the best students - even if they are not necessarily the best at imparting knowledge. As a result, they show off the best results, because they have the best raw material. It's a combination of quality and scarcity of acceptance to a large degree.
This creates a cycle where the best want to get into school X, and thus school X becomes more exclusive while producing the best graduates, increasing the prestige, etc. Creating more high-quality institutions would work to reduce the degree to which this is important, but that's a very long-term thing. It certainly will never remove it entirely, because the mentality and desire for elitism will remain.
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On May 24 2011 16:52 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 16:24 gullberg wrote:On May 24 2011 15:43 Popss wrote: I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S What are you talking about, it's the same in Sweden (and probably in many other countries aswell) just not to the same degree as S.Korea. Oh please maybe my parents where just to nice to me but in terms of universities it really doesn't matter much which school you went to.
This is true. Most schools seem pretty equal (I don't really have a way to know for sure since I haven't studied at all of them). Some schools which you wouldn't expect to be top of the line can sometimes be better than the big famous ones even.
This might have something to do with how easy it is to get into your school of choice, at least in my experience it is.
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I agree that "pretending" all schools are "good" is not a real solution, but I think such problems need to be handled in a nother way. I think the most important ppl to take the stress of the kids are their parents. Parents need to teach the most important values to their children, they actually see (at least they should) if their own child is suffering from stress, got no social life anymore.. etc etc. Even in Korea where the culture seems to be more "mechanic" measuring its succes only on results, you should not let your kid suffer. Of course every parent wants his child to be successfull but for such a prize? no way. Parents should let their children know that you actually can have a good/happy life without being the best.
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On May 24 2011 09:35 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:26 Deadeight wrote: The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah. This is somewhat true if all your motivation is extrinsic. But "happiness" is also almost completely relative, so you can't say that people working hard to achieve a lofty goal isn't a course to reach happiness, because to me and a lot of other people, it is. Haven't you ever worked super hard for something and been happy upon completion? Its the same thing. By the way, I'm pretty sure dentists/doctors don't have to hit 60 to start "doing something."
It's just easier if your motivation is extrinsic. If it's not? Introspection.
I never meant you shouldn't work hard for something, but to weigh up what will truly make you happiest. Just because something was hard to do doesn't mean you're happy when you've done it. (For about a month when I changed my diet I had really bad constipation and trust me that didn't make me happy all the time.) When you work hard to achieve something, its the achievement at the end that you want, e.g. getting a better paid job. It's the reward, or promise of the reward, that gives you happiness.
So you have to weigh up the reward with the cost of working so hard, and I feel like lots of people fall with "working too hard", far too easily.
Yes, working hard and achieving something may well improve your overall happiness, (like having a boring job but it allows you to eat), but you really have to think about whether it will. And I'm not sure this is exactly something people have really had to think about in previous centuries, as the choice to eat and pay the rent or not is a pretty easy one. We have more options now.
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Here in Canada we don't have entrance exams; you are admitted into university purely based on your academic and extra-curricular merit achieved throughout the school year. I never felt this kind of pressure other than to get good overall marks, but I was in the top 10% of all high school students anyways so it wasn't a worry for me.
I can see this kind of pressure getting to people in university though. Your life success in Canada is based almost exclusively on your academic success, because most jobs have shifted into high tech and service delivery (and service delivery pays less unless you're extremely skilled like a doctor). If you fail in university there are other opportunities, but basically you're getting much less out of life than you would have if you had completed your education. Hell, most people who complete their education still fall short due to the nature of their degrees. + Show Spoiler +Arts degrees are effectively useless because most people go the teaching route and there are no teaching jobs left.
For me, failure at university is not an option, and if I ever had to repeat a term (which I've done already) again or failed out I would definitely be feeling suicidal. My self-worth is almost entirely based on my success at school, so I can see why these Korean students feel so much pressure to do well.
So, in university you will have the odd student that kills himself because he can't take it. We had one do it in our school a couple years ago, but that was one. Our school also has a policy that if someone in your class commits suicide everyone passes, resulting in the exam-time joke that everyone hopes someone kills themselves so we all don't fail. The classes themselves are that hard.
I would at least wait until after I failed to kill myself though. I see no point in studying so much and then offing myself before giving that exam a shot. But I know that people suffering from severe anxiety or depression do not think rationally in the least. It's just a shame that this happens with such frequency and the culture is so supporting of this.
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TheGiz got a point here. East Asia countries all have an entrance exam which really force student to study there ass off to get 1 chance to go on with their education. Even if you are good student thru out your high school, but one mistake, then you are out, thats alot of pressure. I don't why my country as well as other east asia countries don't adopt the NA system of admission yet.
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On May 24 2011 22:07 Caphe wrote: I don't why my country as well as other east asia countries don't adopt the NA system of admission yet.
Remember that the United States has the SAT, which is basically a summative entrance exam. Many US colleges and universities rely on the score of this test when determining admissions, so the system is still similar.
So many good students smoke this exam however, and their grades are all so high, that high quality schools (Ivy League) in the US don't even have to compare academics anymore. All they care about is athletics, extra-curricular activities (and you need many), and whose parents will donate money to the school's coffers.
The North American culture overall though is one of laziness, and a great many students do not care about their SAT scores or their overall marks.
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Dear lord, and here in norway we have kids complaining about academic pressure.
This is so awful, the fact that theres so much academic pressure that it drives students to suicide just because they're not performing perfectly. Kind of heartless, imo.
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On May 24 2011 17:13 Zedders wrote: The fact that schooling plays SUCH a huge role in korea, and other countries is, I find, a really good thing. The problem is that most institutes have absolutely no idea how to teach to the minorities of the students. When I say minorities I mean those with learning disabilities, those that are gifted etc. There are many that just don't do well in school mainly because the school's techniques for learning and showing how you've learned are completely inadequate for them.
I find the only real remedy to this situation is for all teaching industries to re-vamp their entire programs to fit the society of now's students. Our systems are basically stemmed from the past which just aren't as applicable to today's economy and opportunities
Couldn't agree more, in Norway too, the minority of students (those especially gifted/with disabilities) are being alienated, while the school tries to jam everybody into a tiny box, no matter how fast they learn, how slow etc..
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On May 24 2011 17:11 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 17:07 GG.NoRe wrote:On May 24 2011 16:47 Pleiades wrote: Never really cared so much about education after high school. I looked at my high school friends who were working their asses off just to get into UC schools with curiousity. Education does teach you to become better in the field you're interested in, but it doesn't teach you to be resourceful. If you know how to be resourceful, then you can pull those people who go into college and make them work for you so you can live a better life. Want to know why wealthy white people get so rich, that's the basic form of it. HAHAHA. I love this post because it demonstrates precisely how Koreans DO NOT think. In a billion koreans, you wont find anyone who'll say this. That more than education or hardwork, its about your ability or resourcefulness. Case in point, look at BW interviews, you'll never see Jaedong or anyone say "well yeah I got creative and I had more ability and skills" Never. They always tell you that their victory is a product of practice and hardwork. At times, even for me, it sounds a bit routine like they have memorized it, but that is an honest truth. They really believe success is in the amount of work they put in, and not in some intangible factors. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just pointing out the clear cultural difference. As a Chinese-American who spent part of my childhood in Taiwan, I can attest that this academic pressure extends to pretty much all Asian countries, including China and Japan. It's quite disturbing and heartbreaking, because since it's the 'norm,' no one seems to be trying to do anything to change the system. Even in Western countries, the 'strict Asian parents' are a stereotype/joke instead of treated as a real social problem that causes serious damage to kids. I don't think it causes serious damage to kids, since hey I didn't suicide yet, but I think it teaches the kids discipline. How many Asian kids do you see going around calling their mother "bitch" compared to those in America? Strict upbringing results in better overall mannerisms of the children. hell, if their ancestors can overcome the strict upbringing why can't they?
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I'm shocked so few commit suicide I thought it would be much higher South Korea is a country of almost 50 million with I believe over 30 suicides per 100,100 citizens. Though sad this may be you must understand this is just a consequence of South Korea's high achievement when you fail you feel even worse seeing others excel around you. The German word Schadenfreude means delighting in the misfortunes of others however so few of their peers failure.. The fact that what schools you go to and your level success defines your life and who you can marry makes the failure even more brutal. Working this hard means you have no time to grow as human you basically all you do is study I won't go as far to say their lives are empty only to say that all this studying and work promotes such a life.
As for Suh seems like he was trying to make under achieving students commit suicide. I really felt bad for these students does Korea not believe in failure? How sad many of the greatest inventors or leaders failed several of times before they achieved success if they were in Korea seems like many would have just killed themselves what a waste of talent really depressing.
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I guess it is not a coincidence if Chinease and Korean SC2 players just leave the europeans and americans behind so fast when it comes to skill. They are just more motivated and used to working.
I'm very conflicted when it comes to this question. I do think that the best results come from students who want to learn because they are intressted in what they are doing. That has always been the case for me. But I know that there are lots of examples to show that the opposite is true.
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On May 25 2011 00:16 Elroi wrote: I guess it is not a coincidence if Chinease and Korean SC2 players just leave the europeans and americans behind so fast when it comes to skill. They are just more motivated and used to working.
By that logic they'd have to be good at everything they are doing professionally. But it's not the case. South Korea hasn't achieved anything special except their status concerning e-sports. And concerning china: Those people are ridiculous. Working their ass off for literally nothing. Most of them are poor and they don't even have the dignity to stand up. I don't think that is a good attitude.
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It may be shocking for you to realize that suicide rates are high in the younger population of every culture. It may not be all related to the same stresses, but it is the age group most likely to do this. in 2007 5,000 kids ages 10-24 committed suicide in the US for example. Some were bullied, some were confused, and I'm sure some had enormous pressures put on them by parents and society to become something they weren't. Most were probably just having a hard time dealing with the change that everyone goes through at those ages.
It has also had more coverage in S. Korea because of the alarming rate of popular figures that have committed suicide in recent years. President Roh Moo-hyun along with 10 notable pop culture icons including actors and singers. I think we can all agree that suicide is disturbing no matter where it happens and what age group it happens to. It's sad in any language. Sadly enough though it is apart of the human condition.
I think awareness is the answer. Awareness of who your children are, and what they can handle is very important. Medication, therapy, love, motivation, positive reinforcement, are all things parents and their children should be aware of.
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On May 24 2011 16:52 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 16:24 gullberg wrote:On May 24 2011 15:43 Popss wrote: I always find these discussion interesting because in Sweden atleast the "prestige" in having a degree lies with the degree itself not the school you took it from.
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S What are you talking about, it's the same in Sweden (and probably in many other countries aswell) just not to the same degree as S.Korea. Oh please maybe my parents where just to nice to me but in terms of universities it really doesn't matter much which school you went to. They were being nice, because there are definitely times when it matters (depending on the subject though).
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On May 25 2011 00:38 Punti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 00:16 Elroi wrote: I guess it is not a coincidence if Chinease and Korean SC2 players just leave the europeans and americans behind so fast when it comes to skill. They are just more motivated and used to working.
By that logic they'd have to be good at everything they are doing professionally. But it's not the case. South Korea hasn't achieved anything special except their status concerning e-sports. And concerning china: Those people are ridiculous. Working their ass off for literally nothing. Most of them are poor and they don't even have the dignity to stand up. I don't think that is a good attitude.
you mean besides industrialize at a rate that is unseen by very few countries. how many other countries have gone from nothing to first world in <30-40 years?
asian americans have achieved higher median income, higher educational status, and are an overwhelming presence in america's top schools (even compared to whites). how many other immigrant groups can say the same? we are often labeled a 'model minority'. now i'm not saying this is always all positive, but to say that we have achieved nothing other than being good at starcraft is really quite stupid.
if anything the asian work ethic does show that in fact talent matters very little when it comes to success.
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It is a culture of east asia to be hardworking and over-achieving - one of the ways to prove success is through academic results. If they dont show academic success, they are considered a failure and must live with that namestamp for the rest of their life. One of the many sources of these pressures is parents. Parents' teachings have been an important part to an asian's upbringing. You have to follow your parents' advises - if not you're seen as disrespectful.
So if students commit suicide - blame it on their parents and their teachings. A kid's actions reflect upon his parents' values. Asian parents generally want their kids to be successful in terms of academic, forcing their kids to enter prestigious universities. Most parents dont even consider the hardships and pressure that that can have on their kids.
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On May 25 2011 03:49 vpatrickd wrote: Most parents dont even consider the hardships and pressure that that can have on their kids.
I'm not so sure this is exclusive to Asian parents. It happens here in the West in families where one or both parents never went to university and want their kids to surpass them. The pressure can be pretty great. As a firstborn son in a family where both parents never had any viable post-secondary education to speak of, I can testify that the pressures that I experience to complete my education are massive.
My mother will not stop pestering me to get my university marks up. She has no idea how damn difficult some of the stuff I do is. This is different with Asian parents though where one or both of them probably have some form of high-level education. My Chinese friend's mom bugs him all the time and she's a PHD Materials Science Engineer or something like that. She knows how hard it is and still won't give her son an inch!
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On May 25 2011 03:49 vpatrickd wrote: It is a culture of east asia to be hardworking and over-achieving - one of the ways to prove success is through academic results. If they dont show academic success, they are considered a failure and must live with that namestamp for the rest of their life. One of the many sources of these pressures is parents. Parents' teachings have been an important part to an asian's upbringing. You have to follow your parents' advises - if not you're seen as disrespectful.
So if students commit suicide - blame it on their parents and their teachings. A kid's actions reflect upon his parents' values. Asian parents generally want their kids to be successful in terms of academic, forcing their kids to enter prestigious universities. Most parents dont even consider the hardships and pressure that that can have on their kids.
IMO, a lot of this is directly derived from culture. Way back in the days (Confucian teachings), there were four defined occupations, and "shi" (scholarly officials?) was ranked above all else, and the only way to be achieve this social status was through studying. Thousands of years passed since, and very little had changed.
In modern days, this deep-rooted need to excel academically is only exacerbated by the intense competition, and we have groups of Asians killing themselves for a tenth of a grade point.
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On May 24 2011 20:28 Deadeight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:35 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:26 Deadeight wrote: The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah. This is somewhat true if all your motivation is extrinsic. But "happiness" is also almost completely relative, so you can't say that people working hard to achieve a lofty goal isn't a course to reach happiness, because to me and a lot of other people, it is. Haven't you ever worked super hard for something and been happy upon completion? Its the same thing. By the way, I'm pretty sure dentists/doctors don't have to hit 60 to start "doing something." It's just easier if your motivation is extrinsic. If it's not? Introspection. I never meant you shouldn't work hard for something, but to weigh up what will truly make you happiest. Just because something was hard to do doesn't mean you're happy when you've done it. (For about a month when I changed my diet I had really bad constipation and trust me that didn't make me happy all the time.) When you work hard to achieve something, its the achievement at the end that you want, e.g. getting a better paid job. It's the reward, or promise of the reward, that gives you happiness. So you have to weigh up the reward with the cost of working so hard, and I feel like lots of people fall with "working too hard", far too easily. Yes, working hard and achieving something may well improve your overall happiness, (like having a boring job but it allows you to eat), but you really have to think about whether it will. And I'm not sure this is exactly something people have really had to think about in previous centuries, as the choice to eat and pay the rent or not is a pretty easy one. We have more options now.
I think you're argument here is that people don't weight their marginal benefits and marginal costs efficiently enough and therefore they just end up working hard and not getting a lot. Well the problem with that is that the process of attaining a goal isnt always a "cost." For example, studying isn't always a terrible chore. If you enjoy the subject, then working/studying itself is also a reward. I'm still not really sure what you're trying to say though. You can't just tell people to "be happy." That's being insensitive because you're essentially saying that all that they have been working for is pretty much pointless.
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I remember seeing a news show on the 1 child per family policy (i think it was Vanguard) where the families are very explicit with their children about their expectations. They believe that youth is for working and relaxation comes later in life with success. By this reasoning, since children are in no way successful (since they have not lived long enough to do anything) they should be working non-stop to prove themselves. Also many western families feel that since the parents made the decision to have a child and the child did not decide to be born that parents should take a more back seat supportive role in fostering the child's ambitions. This is absolutely not the case for most of the Asians I know. My best friend in high school was Asian and very musically gifted (classical guitar) but his parents forced him into engineering. Ill have to say that my final deduction at this point, based on my own experience, is that the Asian system is great at creating a stronger average academic but does not make stronger people.
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On May 25 2011 05:18 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 20:28 Deadeight wrote:On May 24 2011 09:35 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 09:26 Deadeight wrote: The only aim in life should be to be happy. You live once. After that, it's just nothing.
We've all seen those "Look how big the Universe is!" videos. You're nothing. You will not make any large difference in the course of the universe. This isn't a bad thing, it's a huge weight off your shoulders. If you become a happy bin man in 100 years time (0.000 000 007% of the age of the universe, or our best guess at it) no one will care and nothing will be any different. Except you will have been happy.
I understand that once you're on that conveyor belt of working harder and harder it can sometimes be "too late". But I'd hate to work really hard, hit 60 and retire a millionaire, and think "Shit I didn't do anything."
Yeah. This is somewhat true if all your motivation is extrinsic. But "happiness" is also almost completely relative, so you can't say that people working hard to achieve a lofty goal isn't a course to reach happiness, because to me and a lot of other people, it is. Haven't you ever worked super hard for something and been happy upon completion? Its the same thing. By the way, I'm pretty sure dentists/doctors don't have to hit 60 to start "doing something." It's just easier if your motivation is extrinsic. If it's not? Introspection. I never meant you shouldn't work hard for something, but to weigh up what will truly make you happiest. Just because something was hard to do doesn't mean you're happy when you've done it. (For about a month when I changed my diet I had really bad constipation and trust me that didn't make me happy all the time.) When you work hard to achieve something, its the achievement at the end that you want, e.g. getting a better paid job. It's the reward, or promise of the reward, that gives you happiness. So you have to weigh up the reward with the cost of working so hard, and I feel like lots of people fall with "working too hard", far too easily. Yes, working hard and achieving something may well improve your overall happiness, (like having a boring job but it allows you to eat), but you really have to think about whether it will. And I'm not sure this is exactly something people have really had to think about in previous centuries, as the choice to eat and pay the rent or not is a pretty easy one. We have more options now. I think you're argument here is that people don't weight their marginal benefits and marginal costs efficiently enough and therefore they just end up working hard and not getting a lot. Well the problem with that is that the process of attaining a goal isnt always a "cost." For example, studying isn't always a terrible chore. If you enjoy the subject, then working/studying itself is also a reward. I'm still not really sure what you're trying to say though. You can't just tell people to "be happy." That's being insensitive because you're essentially saying that all that they have been working for is pretty much pointless.
If working hard isn't a cost and you enjoy it, then great you're already there, you're doing what you enjoy already. I never said work can't make you happy, just to do what makes you happy.
There are however a lot of people working because they feel they should and it will be worth it in the end, and a lot it may not be. I'm saying peoples value "success" as exactly happiness, but it's not. It might bring you happiness in some cases, but don't let other people impose what would bring them happiness on you. Which happens, a lot.
If what you're studying now is what you enjoy then you're doing exactly as I said, you're living doing exactly what you want to do. If you're studying your arse off because you feel you "should" and you just "need" to do it, then maybe it's worth re-evaluating.
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On May 25 2011 00:38 Punti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 00:16 Elroi wrote: I guess it is not a coincidence if Chinease and Korean SC2 players just leave the europeans and americans behind so fast when it comes to skill. They are just more motivated and used to working.
By that logic they'd have to be good at everything they are doing professionally. But it's not the case. South Korea hasn't achieved anything special except their status concerning e-sports. And concerning china: Those people are ridiculous. Working their ass off for literally nothing. Most of them are poor and they don't even have the dignity to stand up. I don't think that is a good attitude. Umm.. if you're implying that koreans don't do anything else well other than sc, you couldn't be any more ignorant and stupid. There's archery, short track and other sporting events with varying degree of success I can't be bothered to mention them all.
But yea I agree on your general idea. We're obviously not good at everything.
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I think the psychological assistance programs is a great idea, because it helps to build an attitude in society as a whole, an attitude saying "it's normal to be anxious and even suicidal and you don't have to hide away in your room until you crack", which I think is a great step in the right direction. But unfortunately, it will take time for the ideas to sink in, so it won't have too much political (or otherwise) gain the first few years until it has become an accepted fact that people can crack and that they're no less worth because of it. If I've understood correctly, if you have mental problems, you are pretty much expected to just suck it up and keep going? Perhaps not explicitly, but it's what people are thinking, right? I think that's one half of the problem right there.
The other half, is the tests themselves, I think. I mean, if 14 hrs a day, 6 days a week will only get you 85% on your test, then I'm willing to go as far as saying there's something wrong with the test and that we're talking about the far end of diminishing returns here. I've heard that the preparations for English exams are all about solving the exams rather than learning the language, with all the focus on "insert correct form" type of questions and no focus on talking or writing it. I think that, for the purpose of learning English, one would get much more out of 20% talking/pronounciation, 30% writing essays, 50% cramming for exams (numbers taken out of my ass) and scoring, say, 83% on the grammar test, but actually learning the language as well! Those 50% extra time used for cramming are, in my opinion, not worth it for 2% extra on the test. And if those 2% extra would get you into the top 3, even though you can't actually talk English with anyone, then I say there's something wrong with the system.
Yeah, I know this was kind of a one-sided argument, completely ignoring whatever good sides there are about cramming to perfection in a focused area, but in this case, I think it's worth ignoring it.
Oh, and I'm afraid the OP made a rather unfortunate, inadvertant, macabre joke + Show Spoiler +
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On May 24 2011 18:10 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 14:32 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: The solution I think is to not make this as a knee-jerk solution, and to actually implement is as a sustainable and standard process, starting at an early age. Moreover, the government, and these centers, should actively reach out to students in a systematic yet non-obtrusive way. They can't expect the solve a serious national disaster like this to be solved by being passive. Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions. Not as much as you think. The best schools are also the ones that take in the best students - even if they are not necessarily the best at imparting knowledge. As a result, they show off the best results, because they have the best raw material. It's a combination of quality and scarcity of acceptance to a large degree. This creates a cycle where the best want to get into school X, and thus school X becomes more exclusive while producing the best graduates, increasing the prestige, etc. Creating more high-quality institutions would work to reduce the degree to which this is important, but that's a very long-term thing. It certainly will never remove it entirely, because the mentality and desire for elitism will remain. I agree with what you're saying. But that's because there's a bottleneck of how scarce the top schools can be. Which are the jobs available. So even if we democratize high level education so that everyone has access to the same knowledge. There still isn't jobs for all those guys. So how do employers look for the best people to hire from those universities? How do you tell the good from the bad? So of course some universities are still gonna be perceived as better. Not because education there is different. But because people who attend it, get the better jobs.
The only way around it is fixing the jobs/students ratio. In other words, creating more jobs. Which is a really hard problem to solve. But not impossible, there's plenty of things you can do. I'm no expert in Korea, but one of the things I figure is missing there is entrepreneurship. Maybe some program to incentive Koreans to start their own business could help the country grow. Consequently increasing the demand for specialized labor from universities. Which would reduce the importance of the top 3 ones and decreasing suicide rates.
So I think there's both sides of the coin here. Both universities could do a better job at democratizing education. And also economic growth would increase this bottleneck of how democratic universities can go.
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On May 25 2011 00:38 Punti wrote: And concerning china: Those people are ridiculous. Working their ass off for literally nothing. Most of them are poor and they don't even have the dignity to stand up. I don't think that is a good attitude.
Shut up.
User was temp banned for this post.
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It's a system that works, I fully endorse it despite the deaths. I mean 156 suicides in a year is a tragic thing by itself and generates massive negative publicity for the government/education system, but ultimately in this day and age where human lives are worth nothing, their deaths are not significant to the society.
This is not a Korean issue; it happens in most of the Asian countries (Japan being somewhat of an exception). I know this from personal experience due to my upbringing and also stories from friends/cousins regarding their classmates committing suicide.
All the proposed solutions in this thread are just wishful and somewhat ignorant "Westernized Thinking". Boosting the overall quality of the universities? Enact better education/psych. assistance programs? In theory, this would definitely help. In a first world nation. But in practice, in developing nations (again, Japan is the exception and Korea is a 1.5 - 2.5nd world nation depending on how one looks at it), these suggestions just won't work.
Why? Because people are forgetting the reason in which people sell their souls to get into a good university in the first place - better jobs later in life. Now, obviously the same thing applies to N.A. and Western E.U., but the difference is that when you do fuck up here in Canada, you can always find another alternative to make money and live a decent (by Canadian standards, quite high by world standards) life, be it becoming a plumber, a salesperson, or just someone who collects welfare and living in government housing (had a friend, her mom did exactly this paying ~$100 / month for rent while collecting 1.8k every month in assistance because she was single mother). In comparison, if you fuck up in most Asian countries you're fucked, in more than 1 ways. Not only did you basically just wash 99.99% of the prospects of a bright future down the toilet, moreover your family is "dishonored" in a sense (when I visited my parents back in the motherland, all their friends talked about were which universities their kids got into...), and that worst of all there is no other real hope for you; a harsh life awaits you.
It's a matter of life and death, it really is. I know that after seeing the way childhood friends study for 20+ hours a day just how serious business the exams are. In fact, when I put myself in their shoes I could totally empathize with them and would probably be a suicide statistic if I didn't get into at least a 2nd tier university.
I hope I shed some light on this matter having lived in both worlds for 10+ years.
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Culture is definitely a large part of it.
Asian parents live vicariously through their child's life. They want them to gain the success they never had in theirs, so academics are pushed ahead of everything else. But unfortunately, to be successful in the modern society, you need other skills that can't be taught through 20+ hours/day of hitting the books, and a lot of those parents fail to realize this.
The gossip and bragging is probably worse though, I feel a lot of Asian parents use their kids as their personal trophies to brag to extended family or friends about their parenting prowess, which annoys me to no end. Yes I'm Asian, yes I've gone through this. It makes me sick when relatives look at you with judging eyes based on how many accolades you did or did not get, what university you get into, what program you get into, etc. Fortunately my parents somewhat dropped their hardcore attitude as I was growing up, but of course it's still there to a degree. I can't imagine how much worse the pressure is if I had grown up in those SE Asian countries.
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On May 24 2011 08:21 imperator-xy wrote: they are really doing it the hard way
at the same time we are doing it the real soft way which makes us fall behind those ambitous countries Define fall behind..The amount of suicides related to academic pressure in my country is probably between 0 and 1. And I would rather keep it that way and enjoy life instead of living like a robot.
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Well, I can honestly relate to those koreans, although its different for me. Instead of studying and learning all the time, I do it almost not at all. Reason being that I don't know what I want and learning what I have to learn now feels so pointless I have no motivation for it at all. It can drive you kind of crazy when you're in that situation because everything in the world is about school and how well you perform in it...
Dad tells me whatever you learn doesn't matter, because it's all about showing you have the capacity to do things. I know this is true but I just can't help it but feel no motivation at all to do any of the work. It feels pretty much like you're learning the entire world of math, and the amount of it coming in handy will pretty much be limited to the amount of change you'll receive from the milk you bought with your 2 euro coin.
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On May 25 2011 08:01 Lythox wrote: Well, I can honestly relate to those koreans, although its different for me. Instead of studying and learning all the time, I do it almost not at all. Reason being that I don't know what I want and learning what I have to learn now feels so pointless I have no motivation for it at all. It can drive you kind of crazy when you're in that situation because everything in the world is about school and how well you perform in it...
Dad tells me whatever you learn doesn't matter, because it's all about showing you have the capacity to do things. I know this is true but I just can't help it but feel no motivation at all to do any of the work. It feels pretty much like you're learning the entire world of math, and the amount of it coming in handy will pretty much be limited to the amount of change you'll receive from the milk you bought with your 2 euro coin.
Honestly the biggest problem I have with society or parents putting this kind of pressure on young people is simply the fact that in my opinion school up until university is simply getting used to studying rather than actually accumulating useful skills.
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It´s pretty shocking news to me. I think an examination of the educational system as well as the reasons for such a high level of competitiveness is a good idea. Ravencruiser mentions above that the reason people compete so much for the higher level universities is for the good jobs later in life. This is true but it is not everything. As well as good jobs people compete for the reputation and standing in society.
I think that competitiveness can be a very positive force when people compete constructively for positive results. But in my mind positive results are those that work towards equity for all life and towards diminishing the systems of economic class and societal status which divide us.
In the states, tragically, there are also many young person suicides. Whatever they result from, hopelessness, stress, bullying, they all speak loudly on what should be the fundamental question: How can we work towards a society which is more tolerant and supportive of all life and less focused on the ego and self-aggrandizement of the individual. I think the world is in need of a paradigm shift about how we live as individuals as well as a society.
Anyway, thanks for sharing this troubling news.
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Hello everyone,
Suicide in Korea really is, in my opinion, a tragedy. Students committing suicide is a tragedy anywhere... In Korea, It is clearly the number one reason for students' deaths and is acknowledged as a problem by many education leaders in Korea.
In response, the Korean government, with the leadership of the department of education research (교육과학기술부), has initiated a program to educate teachers and parents about suicide prevention. There are .pdfs of prevention protocols and lesson plans for educating elementary and middle school students, along with materials for said lesson.
The department will also attempt to track the reach and efficacy of this program.
Let's hope for the children of Korea that this program will be beneficial...
source: http://www.schoolhealth.kr/LuBoard/SHealth/SHDataBbsList.php?GbnCode=0109 (Korean -- you may also have to view with IE)
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Wow I had NO idea how hard it was for the students in korea, I feel pressure in the United States to perform well but that's just because we always hear about countries like japan and korea who are trying twice as hard to get jobs, a very eye opening post for me. THat's awful.
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It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
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On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
i hope one day youll know what it feels like to be depressed and kill yourself
User was warned for this post
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On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man.
Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not.
I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger.
just my 2 minerals~
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On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~
I completely understand both your views, I do. But the reason they're unacceptable in todays society is that we're supposed to have moved beyond that, made a progression. I can guarantee if you had been brought up in certain situations, you would commit suicide. You would. Terrible, terrible stuff can happen that could make you wish you were dead. I'm not saying you'd expect sympathy if you commit suicide, but many of these same people in other circumstances could have ended up much stronger than you, been much happier than you, contributed more than you to society, etc.
P.S. If this turns into a discussion I'm predicting we'll see Godwin's Law.
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sucks ass.... here i am, naturally smart, not studying at all until about 2-3days before a really life-changing exam and getting a A- average, never do homework or nothing, except listen in class and that little 2-3days before an exam, keep in mind im still in my last year of high school, so its not as intense.
i wouldn't have a damn clue what academic pressure would feel like.. my prayers goes out to the victims and family's
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Well it's mainly cultural. In The Netherlands most people really don't stress about school, it's not like ur life is over if u don't pass some exams. But yeh in a culture where you are judged on performance I can imagine the pressure, it still should never never never be a reason to ever commit suicide tho :/ Korean government should get some sort of campaign going to take away some of the pressure on the students, 'it doesn't matter'
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to me it looks like this system produces a lot of robots that learn everything but never train any critical thinking. And to me it looks like in the end asian countries produce a lot of "yes-men" that never produce an own opinion.
I am no fan of the german university attitude of " do what you want we dont care" but seriously I am really happy that I live here and didnt get pressured to learn so much crap for university entry when I wanted to study something that probably wouldnt be asked in those tests anyway
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On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~
As usual the fringe batshit insane eugenicists come out of the woodwork. Maybe look at predictive variables for suicide, then tell me how many are at an individual level that could be genetically selected for*.
*Protip: There's gender, try selecting for that (lol). Then there's ones that can both both social or genetic, like personality (which is more social) and family mental health problems (which varies depending on illness).
Maybe get a clue before using the deaths of others to boost your self esteem.
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On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~
Jesus. F*cking. Christ.
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It's sad that while the purpose of studying is to prepare a better life for the future you, the pressure of it ends up ruining the life of some people.
Thank goodness that I got moved from China to New Zealand at a young age. While China seems to be less competitive than Korea, I still often hear about how my cousins back there who study for what seems to me like inhuman hours. Although my parents still have the competitive 'who's better at raising their child' mentality with their other NZ Chinese friends, they generally allow me to do whatever I want without getting angry unless my GPA drops below an A average.
I don't like the general high-pressure Asian education system. Although it results in high exam marks, I think it causes most students to just study for how to score well in exams instead of how to do well in the real world. I'm a 2nd year electrical&electronic enginerring student and the other day I was horrified to see another Asian student studying for a test by basically rewriting out the whole coursebook. The sad thing is that while she'll probably get A+ for memorising how to do questions, all that memorisation is doing is teaching her not to use her brain which probably won't help much in the real world since you'll be solving problems using theory and knowledge instead of reciting how to do it out of some book.
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And what does South Korea achieve by putting that much emphasis on these tests? Some will succeed some will fail, but this is poor measure of a person's ability.
All you are doing is manufacturing an army of worker drone robots with the same ability to repeat other people's ideas.
I think the application process for universities should be way more general and seek to find well rounded individuals with original ideas not just those who can regurgitate stuff from books with efficiency.
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On May 24 2011 08:21 jinorazi wrote: i'm not sure if it isnt mentioned in OP or the article but i want to point out finance troubles play a part too.
just watched this on MBN.
the college tuitions in korea have risen 30% in the past 4 years while majority of the school do not accept credit cards, cash only for tuitions. there is a 24 month plan but with 30% interest. only 1 out of 15 schools take credit card but limited to a few certain cc companies that has ties with the school. school claims that 1.5% transaction fee is too much of a burden.
i really hope cultural revolution takes place to change parent's view on academic achievements (ie. its ok to do music, its ok to breakdance, its ok to be an artist), make going to school fun and enjoyable, not a do or die institute.
as a 9 year old in korea. i went to school at 8am, finished at 2pm, went to afterschool from 3 to 8. 6 days a week.
longer days for my older sister and brother. USA felt like heaven. what?... Lol that system sucks kill ur president or something... just kidding. But i think thats a bit too much of reading to be honest
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This is so sad, my friend actually moved from Korea to Hong Kong because of how pressuring Korean education was, I can feel how the poor guy did before he chose to do what he did. RIP
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
Such a sad, sad post.
Theres so many pros and cons in the idea of what goes on in the Korean education system. For a good thing, all this studying provides the country with exceptional levels of intelligence over the whole of korea, not just a limited number in most countrys. However i guess so many people can't take the pressure, myself personally i have never been in a heavy pressured situation, i have had pressure but i just coasted through it, but its never been major like the way it sounds in Korea.
I guess the only solution is to take the pressure off somehow, counciling won't solve this problem, even if it was made compulsory people don't react the way someone tells them to react.
There is one thing i would like to add, the IQ level of someone doesn't always bring the success in buisness level, those great people such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Einstein, Jesus, Henry Ford, Winston Churchill, all believed in one common thing;
Imagination Is the Key to Life!
They all beleived in what we all did as a child, they beleived that with a great idea, no matter the level of your I.Q if you just practiced/preached whatever, you will eventually reach success, whether it was saving England from defeat in WW2 like churchill, or getting equality in a racist country as MLK did or just make that car you always dreamt of like Henry Ford! Don't let people stop you from doing something because of your I.Q level! You need not focus on intelligence but mainly the imagination!
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On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~
There is no such thing as survival of the fittest, well not as long as there is government that is. For example look a look at the programs set by the South Korean government to help prevent depression. At the expense of the tax payers those in power set out to do what's best for them (which is either maintain a good political standing, or feel good for helping the unfortunate), and by doing what's best for them they are supporting the incompetent (society), is that not a contradiction?
As for being "weak" and committing suicide, let's remember that depression is a disease, not something that is just learned and can be controlled. It's not as simple as that, hell depression can even be genetic, it runs in my family. Does getting a disease make you weak? Does a disease supported by society and at times cannot even be helped make someone weak?
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On May 24 2011 08:37 Nothingtosay wrote: This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly. Well Japan went to a softer more westernized way of teaching in the 90's. Something that just proved to lower the results of the students. I think the Japanese school system is WAY superior to the western model and they preform at much higher levels.
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On May 25 2011 23:20 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:37 Nothingtosay wrote: This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly. Well Japan went to a softer more westernized way of teaching in the 90's. Something that just proved to lower the results of the students. I think the Japanese school system is WAY superior to the western model and they preform at much higher levels.
I wouldnt feel so superior when the highest cause of death in my country for students and pupils would be suicide. You guys pretty much do the same stuff the koreans do with the exception that, as far as I know, after you got into a japanese university the rest is a cakewalk.
Someone posted the site of the PISA tests. From my experience in german schoolsystem i would advice everyone not to take these tests too seriously. There is a big difference between the countries how these tests are approached. In germany for example noone is learning for them and they just randomly pick some students to take these tests. So the results can vary a lot between the countries.
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On May 24 2011 08:11 RobbybabyDTF wrote: And he're I am sitting on my ass when I should be studying, I take my easy life for granted.
On an unrelated note I for the first time have witnessed someone type 'he're' intentionally.
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On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. This is the thing that intrigues me. Look at South Korea's GDP. Its 20k $ per capita per year. If education is really that important for economic success, how come South Korea with its crushingly hard education tradition and at least half a century of relatively deregulated capitalism still has the same GDP as the Eastern Bloc of ex-soviet countries who started from practically zero in the early 90s and have only medium difficulty education.
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On May 26 2011 00:30 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 23:20 Robinsa wrote:On May 24 2011 08:37 Nothingtosay wrote: This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly. Well Japan went to a softer more westernized way of teaching in the 90's. Something that just proved to lower the results of the students. I think the Japanese school system is WAY superior to the western model and they preform at much higher levels. I wouldnt feel so superior when the highest cause of death in my country for students and pupils would be suicide. You guys pretty much do the same stuff the koreans do with the exception that, as far as I know, after you got into a japanese university the rest is a cakewalk. Someone posted the site of the PISA tests. From my experience in german schoolsystem i would advice everyone not to take these tests too seriously. There is a big difference between the countries how these tests are approached. In germany for example noone is learning for them and they just randomly pick some students to take these tests. So the results can vary a lot between the countries. Reason being: Japan is a face-saving culture. When you bring shame to your family/ancestors/nation, you are to commit harakiri, suicide. This is why suicide is the highest cause of death in Japan - it has nothing to do with being more intelligent and whatnot.
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On May 25 2011 23:20 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:37 Nothingtosay wrote: This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly. Well Japan went to a softer more westernized way of teaching in the 90's. Something that just proved to lower the results of the students. I think the Japanese school system is WAY superior to the western model and they preform at much higher levels. To what end? What exactly is the use of academic success? Is it related to higher ability to produce consumer goods(which is the end goal of economic activity)? No! It is only the higher ability to obey the pedantic demands of professors, to work in the name of work unlike work in the name of consumer appreciation which is the case of financial incentivisation. The ends are completely different.
I would in fact venture to say that the academic system is like the soviet "economy". Which had an anecdote among workers saying "We pretend to do work for them, and they pretend to pay us".
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On May 26 2011 02:13 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 23:20 Robinsa wrote:On May 24 2011 08:37 Nothingtosay wrote: This reminds me of the German school system in the late 19th century. Suicide was rampant because of all the pressure put on the students. This is unfortunately not rare in countries that are trying to or have recently attempted to revolutionize themselves academically.Similar occurrences used to happen more frequently in Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong. The price of industrialization can be steep when it is sought quickly. Well Japan went to a softer more westernized way of teaching in the 90's. Something that just proved to lower the results of the students. I think the Japanese school system is WAY superior to the western model and they preform at much higher levels. To what end? What exactly is the use of academic success? Is it related to higher ability to produce consumer goods(which is the end goal of economic activity)? No! It is only the higher ability to obey the pedantic demands of professors, to work in the name of work unlike work in the name of consumer appreciation which is the case of financial incentivisation. The ends are completely different. I would in fact venture to say that the academic system is like the soviet "economy". Which had an anecdote among workers saying "We pretend to do work for them, and they pretend to pay us".
To the end that the people there are more well-educated than the people here? Scientific progress is pretty important, you know. It may not look swell on the GDP but it helps our race as a whole.
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On May 26 2011 02:07 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. This is the thing that intrigues me. Look at South Korea's GDP. Its 20k $ per capita per year. If education is really that important for economic success, how come South Korea with its crushingly hard education tradition and at least half a century of relatively deregulated capitalism still has the same GDP as the Eastern Bloc of ex-soviet countries who started from practically zero in the early 90s and have only medium difficulty education.
i would hardly call any of the asian tiger countries 'deregulated capitalism'.
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On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again.
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On May 25 2011 22:15 ipx wrote: And what does South Korea achieve by putting that much emphasis on these tests? Some will succeed some will fail, but this is poor measure of a person's ability.
All you are doing is manufacturing an army of worker drone robots with the same ability to repeat other people's ideas.
I think the application process for universities should be way more general and seek to find well rounded individuals with original ideas not just those who can regurgitate stuff from books with efficiency. I agree with this, we still are individuals.
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On May 25 2011 23:06 Vargarr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~ There is no such thing as survival of the fittest, well not as long as there is government that is. For example look a look at the programs set by the South Korean government to help prevent depression. At the expense of the tax payers those in power set out to do what's best for them (which is either maintain a good political standing, or feel good for helping the unfortunate), and by doing what's best for them they are supporting the incompetent (society), is that not a contradiction? As for being "weak" and committing suicide, let's remember that depression is a disease, not something that is just learned and can be controlled. It's not as simple as that, hell depression can even be genetic, it runs in my family. Does getting a disease make you weak? Does a disease supported by society and at times cannot even be helped make someone weak? I fail to see the contradiction. Government is completely compatible with the survival of the fittest. Remember, government programs to help the poor mend government's public image and increase government revenue. Imagine what it would be for government to tax people for 60% of their income if there were no social benefits. No government has been able to do that before the emergence of social democracy. Even medieval serfs paid several times less of their production to their masters.
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to much pressure inhibits creativity, why work hard when one idea can be as strong as a whole day of work.
why use a hammer and a chisel all day when you can build a jackhammer... and do the same work in 1 hour... asian = work work white = work think work
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Heh, you can totally tell the cultural differences in some of the games the countries make. Take asian MMORPGs for example. Many of them have long grinding of the game as their main form of progression, which I very much hate. Sure it's easy, anyone can do it, but it's all work and just tedious. Then look at western MMORPGs. They do have grinding in their game, but it's not as emphasized as asian mmos. The main form of progression requires you to think, form strategies, and find a more efficient way to progress using your knowledge. Western MMORPGs have more emphasis on being more socially involved. This is the challenge, and not everyone can do it, because it requires more than just your own tedious work.
Here's the truth... You can't get through life on your own hard work. You need help, and in the western world, people succeed by helping others who in turn help them as well. The stiff competition of academic success only helps out yourself if you are competing against your peers. If you are willing to help out your peers in their studies, then you will achieve more success as a group than just individually.
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On May 26 2011 02:07 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. This is the thing that intrigues me. Look at South Korea's GDP. Its 20k $ per capita per year. If education is really that important for economic success, how come South Korea with its crushingly hard education tradition and at least half a century of relatively deregulated capitalism still has the same GDP as the Eastern Bloc of ex-soviet countries who started from practically zero in the early 90s and have only medium difficulty education.
this is also just patently false. ukraine's GDP per capita is ~$3k, russia around $14k, kazakhstan ~$10k. i dont know where you got those figures from, but its just wrong. korea is also substantially smaller than most eastern bloc countries with a huge population density. wtf are you talking about.
in addition most of these countries have access to things like oil (central asia is full of it), rare earth elements and natural resources, all of which korea does not have access to.
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On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant. Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day 
I`m sorry if the statements I made in my post appear unfair or are biased.
Indeed, I do not have experience with this culture.
However, what I said was a generalization, as clarified in the post.
I didn`t mean the complete lack of love. There are many types of love. I meant love that is rooted in compassion and understanding, a love that is uniting and liberating.
Such love and it`s expression is greatly diminished when there is ambition, especially this much of an ambition, where there is proclamation of survival-based, high-competition, separatist beliefs/culture.
You could say that your mother and you fought about dropping rank because she cared about you, out of love - and I wouldn`t disagree with you.
However, I would disagree that this was an expression of compassion and understanding.
I would because - how can you have a fight about this ? What about others ? What about those at the bottom ? What about the 640th rank ? Also, what about respecting the autonomy that is your birthright ?
If your mother made you feel like a failure just because you dropped 1 place in ranks, what about those who drop out of school ? What about those who didn`t even get to any good school ?
"Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger."
Again, what about others ? What about those who lose ? Where is compassion in this ?
Its very understandable that Korean parents want their children to be succesful. I didn`t mean to criticise them. They are not to be blamed.
Nonetheless, in such approach, they support the dysfunctional construct of winners/losers. When they do this, even though it is out of care and love for their children, they do not express authentic compassion and understanding. They contribute to and fuel this dysfunctional construct and social structure and their children are taught to do the same.
Thats why it prevails.
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On May 26 2011 04:34 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:08 thisisSSK wrote:On May 24 2011 08:48 UFO wrote: So what of all this that comes out of this studying, hard work, all those achievements, all of it, if there is no love ?
Its just my opinion but I think this culture is very aritificial.
Its like a mummy that is surrounded by the bandages of all those alleged achievements and succeses but if you strip it away and see where it comes from and what is behind it - you will see the frail, decayed skin beneath.
This heartless, sensless competition instead of benevolent cooperation and support.
The very foundation of this culture is fear and judgement. Most of it`s values, in my opinion, are artificial and unauthentic - for example, not rarely the "humility" or the desire to do good, or the desire to contribute comes out of fear of being judged - not from love and wisdom.
In my opinion, this is a slavery or almost a slavery, though well hidden behind the veils of alleged succes, achievements and cultural justification.
Of course this is a generalization, maybe a vast one but nontheless a relevant one. This is the typical "Western" response to Asian academic competition, and its quite ignorant. Korean parents do show love, but in a much more subtle and indirect way than do Western parents. For example, often times, "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger. They simply do what every parent should do: have some level of expectations, although, for korean parents, to an almost-extreme degree. I understand the foreign perspective on the incredible focus on academic success. In fact, not a couple weeks ago, my mom and I fought because I dropped from rank 10 to rank 11 in my class of about 640 students. Despite the fact that I'm going to an ivy league school, we still fought and I felt like a failure. I think situations like this are generally more detrimental than beneficial. Although this suicide issue is a very serious problem, I cringe every time I see anything related to the asian stereotype regarding parents and academic success. Outsiders judge without enough experience and understanding and it is simply too difficult to explain our (or atleast my) situation with one post. Maybe I'll write a book one day  I`m sorry if the statements I made in my post appear unfair or are biased. Indeed, I do not have experience with this culture. However, what I said was a generalization, as clarified in the post. I didn`t mean the complete lack of love. There are many types of love. I meant love that is rooted in compassion and understanding, a love that is uniting and liberating. Such love and it`s expression is greatly diminished when there is ambition, especially this much of an ambition, where there is proclamation of survival-based, high-competition, separatist beliefs/culture. You could say that your mother and you fought about dropping rank because she cared about you, out of love - and I wouldn`t disagree with you. However, I would disagree that this was an expression of compassion and understanding. I would because - how can you have a fight about this ? What about others ? What about those at the bottom ? What about the 640th rank ? Also, what about respecting the autonomy that is your birthright ? If your mother made you feel like a failure just because you dropped 1 place in ranks, what about those who drop out of school ? What about those who didn`t even get to any good school ? "Did you eat?" is an expression of love and care because before Korea modernized and was dirt poor, it was important to know if the kids ate or not. On a similar note, one can say that Korean parents want their children to be successful because success -> stability -> no hunger." Again, what about others ? What about those who lose ? Where is compassion in this ? Its very understandable that Korean parents want their children to be succesful. I didn`t mean to criticise them. They are not to be blamed. Nonetheless, in such approach, they support the dysfunctional construct of winners/losers. When they do this, even though it is out of care and love for their children, they do not express authentic compassion and understanding. They contribute to and fuel this dysfunctional construct and social structure and their children are taught to do the same. Thats why it prevails.
dropping out of school is almost unheard amongst my asian friends. in fact i would say that i'm about 'average' and I attend a top public university lol. the issue is far more complicated than you make it out to be, you'd really need a lot more exposure to the culture to understand.
so you think the culture is not authentic because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs of 'compassion and caring'?
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level).
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On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level).
I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China.
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On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html
you were saying?
china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind.
the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances.
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Its extremely sad... but I cant help but wish more people were this driven
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On May 26 2011 06:00 JamesJohansen wrote: Its extremely sad... but I cant help but wish more people were this driven Isnt this an oxymoron? You think its sad that people commit suicide, but you want other people to drive themselves towards suicide?
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On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances.
Unrelated, but can you watch BBC iPlayer in your country? Louis Theroux did a good documentary on a US Prison 3 years ago (think it was called San Quentin), and he's doing another one now into some massive jail in Florida, with part 1 up now on iPlayer. It's pretty insightful, I had no idea.
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On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances.
I know China is an industrializing country. But that really doesnt factor into the wealthdistribution.
on the chart you posted US and China are 4.6 points apart from each other which in a chart that goes from 100 to 0 is not that much in my eyes and Hong Kong is even worse than US, but I am no statistics student so maybe it's a big gap
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146 holy shit! school pressure can be a bitch but never knew it could be that severe
i havent done my homeworks for several months and i accept the fact i might pass or not :S i should really stop slacking... some people have it worse than me it
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On May 26 2011 06:13 Deadeight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances. Unrelated, but can you watch BBC iPlayer in your country? Louis Theroux did a good documentary on a US Prison 3 years ago (think it was called San Quentin), and he's doing another one now into some massive jail in Florida, with part 1 up now on iPlayer. It's pretty insightful, I had no idea.
i was born in the U.S., but I have a lot of relatives that live in China. most of my cousins who have immigrated to the United States comment that the 'no free speech allowed', while true is not really as bad as the western media makes it out to be. slipping by the national firewall is extremely easy, and most of the 'lies' that the Chinese govt spreads are actually not really believed by most of the populace.
all i'm saying is i've experienced both worlds before and it is very easy to judge the other side of the fence believing your side is more green.
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On May 26 2011 06:15 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances. I know China is an industrializing country. But that really doesnt factor into the wealthdistribution. on the chart you posted US and China are 4.6 points apart from each other which in a chart that goes from 100 to 0 is not that much in my eyes and Hong Kong is even worse than US, but I am no statistics student so maybe it's a big gap
hong kong is actually very capitalist, as it falls in the british tradition ~.
industrialization most certainly has a lot to do with income distribution. i think if you think critically (soemthing i guess us asians just aren't good at right), you would be able to figure it out.
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On May 26 2011 06:20 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 06:15 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances. I know China is an industrializing country. But that really doesnt factor into the wealthdistribution. on the chart you posted US and China are 4.6 points apart from each other which in a chart that goes from 100 to 0 is not that much in my eyes and Hong Kong is even worse than US, but I am no statistics student so maybe it's a big gap hong kong is actually very capitalist, as it falls in the british tradition ~. industrialization most certainly has a lot to do with income distribution. i think if you think critically (soemthing i guess us asians just aren't good at right), you would be able to figure it out.
as the US almost has the same index it cant have a significant role. Unless you want to tell me that the US is a third world country
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On May 26 2011 06:32 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 06:20 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 06:15 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 05:57 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 05:05 Skilledblob wrote:On May 26 2011 04:41 dreamsmasher wrote:
certain social inequalities are actually greater in the U.S. for example, income disparity between the richest/poor, or treatment of elderly. if anything i would argue that the west favors a winner take all mentality much more than any eastern country (on a social level). I highly doubt that there is any difference. Just look at China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.htmlyou were saying? china is also an industrializing country, the United States is a 1st world country. keep that in mind. the United States actually sends about a comparable % of its population to prison as China as well, which is really quite sad, given those same circumstances. I know China is an industrializing country. But that really doesnt factor into the wealthdistribution. on the chart you posted US and China are 4.6 points apart from each other which in a chart that goes from 100 to 0 is not that much in my eyes and Hong Kong is even worse than US, but I am no statistics student so maybe it's a big gap hong kong is actually very capitalist, as it falls in the british tradition ~. industrialization most certainly has a lot to do with income distribution. i think if you think critically (soemthing i guess us asians just aren't good at right), you would be able to figure it out. as the US almost has the same index it cant have a significant role. Unless you want to tell me that the US is a third world country
industrialization generally is a step where a nation is moving from primarily an agricultural based economy to a manufacturing based economy aka people who less than one generation ago were struggling in rice fieldd etc... now working as factory workers etc... there just aren't enough resources to provide for the 'luxuries' that people in 1st world countries take for granted.
generally countries which are good & services based economies are able to provide these things for its citizens because basic needs are more easily met, that's why if you look at that list, the top of the list is generally occupied by developing countries (with a few exceptions, South Africa i guess/United States), while more developed countries are harmed by this less (Western Europe).
in fact the United States has similar income distribution to some very poor Latin American countries, it just isn't as apparent due to its size.
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this chart is about wealthdistribution and not about standard of living because that is what you describe. it is not related to how good the state can provide anything for its citizens. Wealthdistribution is about raw numbers and this does not relate to the structure of a countries economy either.
a country that is mostly agricultural can have a high or low gap in the distribution, it all comes down to how the production profits are distributed among its people. Same is true for industrialized countries.
This is why you have Namibia so high on that chart for example. They have masses of poor landworkers or farmers and only a few very rich mine corporations this is how you make a gap. If you wanted to close that gap you'd have to make everyone profit from the mining corporations and not just a few. Same would be true if Namibia had one big land owner, it's the same principle.
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I'd be interested to see the actual curves. I wouldn't be surprised to see the US spread wasn't a standard Gaussian distribution, maybe even something with two peaks, like two humps of a camel (or a McDonalds "m" lol). There seems to be a lot of very poor at the bottom, then above that it's fairly normal.
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Ohh, I just got sad ;(. Dealing with school pressure in Sweden which is quite relevant to me does not even compare. This is absolutely tragical and I have to agree that this type of pressure can't go on.
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Ohh, I just got sad ;(. Dealing with school pressure in Sweden which is quite relevant to me does not even compare. Well it kind of depends of what you choose to study in high school and later on. If you want to become a doctor in Sweden I would say it is coming near the amount of pressure that seems to exist in Korea. The high standards that exists in Sweden is probably why we are in the top in SC2 right now (foreigner scene ofc). Just my thoughts about it anyways.
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On May 26 2011 04:27 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:07 xarthaz wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. This is the thing that intrigues me. Look at South Korea's GDP. Its 20k $ per capita per year. If education is really that important for economic success, how come South Korea with its crushingly hard education tradition and at least half a century of relatively deregulated capitalism still has the same GDP as the Eastern Bloc of ex-soviet countries who started from practically zero in the early 90s and have only medium difficulty education. this is also just patently false. ukraine's GDP per capita is ~$3k, russia around $14k, kazakhstan ~$10k. i dont know where you got those figures from, but its just wrong. korea is also substantially smaller than most eastern bloc countries with a huge population density. wtf are you talking about. in addition most of these countries have access to things like oil (central asia is full of it), rare earth elements and natural resources, all of which korea does not have access to. Old data. Russia is hitting 20k per capita as we speak, Estonia $19,000 (2011 est.). And remember, these numbers are after the massive contractions of the recession
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solution? move to america! my boss doesnt even know what a homonym is much less how to use them correctly!
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On May 26 2011 07:48 MeteorMash wrote: solution? move to america! my boss doesnt even know what a homonym is much less how to use them correctly!
Are you and your boss English teachers or something?
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On May 26 2011 07:47 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 04:27 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 26 2011 02:07 xarthaz wrote:On May 24 2011 08:06 GG.NoRe wrote: I'm sorry this is personally heartbreaking for me and I can get emotional as I had a classmate once who also committed suicide due to school pressure.
This is not really something new, but it has grown in frequency and intensity lately. As many know, academic excellence is held with very high regard in Korea. We are a country of extreme diligence and discipline. From childhood, children are taught to be respectful and to be successful in life. Most of the success is determined by how well one performs in school, starting with the schools, especially universities, a person goes to. It is a matter literally of life and death. From someone looking from the outside, this may seem strange and excessive, sometimes younger Koreans thank of that also, but it is an idea so embedded that it has become culture.
Recently, with final exams looming, 3 students committed suicide. Like most suicides in Korea, this is caused mainly by academic pressure. I will not discuss the details of the unfortunate events, but I just want to bring to light how vicious this culture/notion could be. For sure, this attitude has brought Korea to rapid success, from being a sleepy Asian backwater country in the 70s and 80s, to a truly modern country it is now. This is the thing that intrigues me. Look at South Korea's GDP. Its 20k $ per capita per year. If education is really that important for economic success, how come South Korea with its crushingly hard education tradition and at least half a century of relatively deregulated capitalism still has the same GDP as the Eastern Bloc of ex-soviet countries who started from practically zero in the early 90s and have only medium difficulty education. this is also just patently false. ukraine's GDP per capita is ~$3k, russia around $14k, kazakhstan ~$10k. i dont know where you got those figures from, but its just wrong. korea is also substantially smaller than most eastern bloc countries with a huge population density. wtf are you talking about. in addition most of these countries have access to things like oil (central asia is full of it), rare earth elements and natural resources, all of which korea does not have access to. Old data. Russia is hitting 20k per capita as we speak, Estonia $19,000 (2011 est.). And remember, these numbers are after the massive contractions of the recession
they are still exceptions to the rule (estonia, probably due to a myriad of other factors which i listed), Russian educational system is still extremely competitive
GDP/capita isn't the only indicator of economic progress as well, you might as well say Hong Kong trumps them all then with 45k/capita?
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On May 25 2011 22:15 ipx wrote: And what does South Korea achieve by putting that much emphasis on these tests? Some will succeed some will fail, but this is poor measure of a person's ability.
All you are doing is manufacturing an army of worker drone robots with the same ability to repeat other people's ideas.
I think the application process for universities should be way more general and seek to find well rounded individuals with original ideas not just those who can regurgitate stuff from books with efficiency.
Having well rounded individuals with original ideas does not go well with a collectivist society and a powerful state. There is a reason the education system is fucked up: Mainstream institutions can't survive otherwise.
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So this is koreas version of Americas current working hours
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Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach.
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1019 Posts
On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach.
lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people.
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On May 26 2011 08:46 Watershed- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:15 ipx wrote: And what does South Korea achieve by putting that much emphasis on these tests? Some will succeed some will fail, but this is poor measure of a person's ability.
All you are doing is manufacturing an army of worker drone robots with the same ability to repeat other people's ideas.
I think the application process for universities should be way more general and seek to find well rounded individuals with original ideas not just those who can regurgitate stuff from books with efficiency. Having well rounded individuals with original ideas does not go well with a collectivist society and a powerful state. There is a reason the education system is fucked up: Mainstream institutions can't survive otherwise. Agreed. Education is a scam(or at least 95% of it.. on a time spent basis). More correct term would be indoctrination.
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A culture which forces such tremendous pressure on its youth does not sound like a particularly healthy one.
When I was much younger, elementary to middle school, I focused heavily on school and getting top grades. It was the mentality. I thought it was expected of me and the idea that academic success was paramount was being constantly reinforced. As I grew older I wised up to this, and my grades consequently started dropping to the point where I risked failing a high school year twice. I didn't care. Even now I think about the people who studied their asses off for perfect scores. What did it get them? Nothing, save for a load of stress and a considerable loss of time which they will never regain. I spent my time educating myself with fine literature and browsing the internet. I can safely say I was the most knowledgeable guy in my class and it had nothing to do with my grades or how much time I spent "on the books".
My advice to anyone under academic pressure? Study what you sincerely like. Screw the rest. School grades and academic titles are the pettiest among the petty as far as distinctions go.
As far as the academic culture pervasive in Asian countries goes, my opinion is that the government needs to take a more vocal stance on this. From what I read about school life there, it honestly seems like a prison. Studying miscellanea (that's what it is, folks, let's be honest here) like your life depended on it sounds like something out of a Bunuel movie.
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On May 26 2011 02:58 thabanana wrote: to much pressure inhibits creativity, why work hard when one idea can be as strong as a whole day of work.
why use a hammer and a chisel all day when you can build a jackhammer... and do the same work in 1 hour... asian = work work white = work think work
Are you seriously implying Asians don't think and aren't creative? Especially with that analogy? Really? I would expect your racially elitist post to be made on a hockey forum, not on TL.
Grow the fuck up and get real.
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This is sickening news. Thank jebus I was born and raised in America. The problem with South Korea is that its such a small country with only 3 elite universities so competition is just ridiculous. Compare this to the the US where there are hundreds of great colleges to pick from and just about anyone with a normal IQ and work ethic can get into their schools of choice. One of my cousins who just recently immigrated to America said that he used to leave home at 7am and get back home after midnight on every school day. This wasnt even highschool but when he attended junior high in Seoul. Fucked up to say the least.
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I feel like a HUGE asshole. When i get a shred of homework, i will bitch till the cows come home
and these guys are saying that feel that they dont have the ability to laugh freely?
Even though This is a sad topic, in which it is. I think people should look at this and notice how much they take their academics for granted. For me personally, This makes me not want to complain about homework and do it now.
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On May 26 2011 09:54 Tsuycc wrote: I feel like a HUGE asshole. When i get a shred of homework, i will bitch till the cows come home
and these guys are saying that feel that they dont have the ability to laugh freely?
Even though This is a sad topic, in which it is. I think people should look at this and notice how much they take their academics for granted. For me personally, This makes me not want to complain about homework and do it now. What academics what granted? grinding for tests and writing papers for the sake of papers? For the sake of having trivia sound bites for cocktail chats during company christmas parties? Bloody hell useless. It is all based on fear and social pressure to fit the mold and obey the man. Because that is what the Prussian education system by its intentioned end is.
I offer an alternative challenge. Try thinking about how different your psychological development wouldve been in absence of the 12+ years of compulsory education
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On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach. lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people.
Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students.
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On May 26 2011 10:47 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 09:54 Tsuycc wrote: I feel like a HUGE asshole. When i get a shred of homework, i will bitch till the cows come home
and these guys are saying that feel that they dont have the ability to laugh freely?
Even though This is a sad topic, in which it is. I think people should look at this and notice how much they take their academics for granted. For me personally, This makes me not want to complain about homework and do it now. What academics what granted? grinding for tests and writing papers for the sake of papers? For the sake of having trivia sound bites for cocktail chats during company christmas parties? Bloody hell useless. It is all based on fear and social pressure to fit the mold and obey the man. Because that is what the Prussian education system by its intentioned end is. I offer an alternative challenge. Try thinking about how different your psychological development wouldve been in absence of the 12+ years of compulsory education
Where the hell do you go to school? I love my course and it's everything I want to be doing. Everything I'm doing now, I will use in a later job. Sure there are instances when it's not the case, but for many it completely is.
Even for people who go on to do something completely unrelated to what they're studying, a good school or uni will teach them how to think critically, or imaginatively.
To me, from the information I have, I don't think the Korean situation is possibly as productive as it could be. But without compulsory education I wouldn't have developed as well, wouldn't have the opportunities, and I've enjoyed pretty much every minute of my education.
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On May 26 2011 10:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach. lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people. Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students.
I find it hard to reply with a well formed argument against this because, to me, it's just wrong. I'm an atheist, and object to any sort of promotion of (what is in my mind) just 100% wrong. On top of this I think it's immoral to take advantage of someone in a delicate emotional state and push a load of (what is in my mind) lies on them. I tried to word that so as not to be offensive, but sorry if it does offend anyone.
But speaking amorally (or immorally, or perhaps just pragmatically, whichever way you look at it) it probably is a good idea. Most people who "find god" in later life do it during an emotionally difficult time, and for whatever reason it can help them. Religions tend to take a dim view of suicide, and can help give a "purpose", and maybe help re-align their priorities to something less materialistic and more spiritual.
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On May 26 2011 11:35 Deadeight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 10:58 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach. lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people. Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students. I find it hard to reply with a well formed argument against this because, to me, it's just wrong. I'm an atheist, and object to any sort of promotion of (what is in my mind) just 100% wrong. On top of this I think it's immoral to take advantage of someone in a delicate emotional state and push a load of (what is in my mind) lies on them. I tried to word that so as not to be offensive, but sorry if it does offend anyone. But speaking amorally (or immorally, or perhaps just pragmatically, whichever way you look at it) it probably is a good idea. Most people who "find god" in later life do it during an emotionally difficult time, and for whatever reason it can help them. Religions tend to take a dim view of suicide, and can help give a "purpose", and maybe help re-align their priorities to something less materialistic and more spiritual.
I see your viewpoint. I fully believe that if every single religion out there is mistaken that there is a purpose to life and a supreme being, then I hope anyone adhering to them gradually finds that the truth that they believe in is false. If this student struggling to find purpose after rejection at SKY or failure to graduate Seoul University finds a faith that isn't reality but gives him purpose, I hope he comes to realize this later in life. I fully see that you believe proselytizing to people in a 'delicate emotional state' is immoral. Ideally people are able to rationally think about what they believe without outside influence. The current situation in Korea, as described by OP, doesn't allow for that situation, sadly. Then again, if there is a God (or gods) that gives His followers a purpose, then how pitiable is it to never be exposed to it before the student ends his life.
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On May 26 2011 12:18 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 11:35 Deadeight wrote:On May 26 2011 10:58 Danglars wrote:On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach. lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people. Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students. I find it hard to reply with a well formed argument against this because, to me, it's just wrong. I'm an atheist, and object to any sort of promotion of (what is in my mind) just 100% wrong. On top of this I think it's immoral to take advantage of someone in a delicate emotional state and push a load of (what is in my mind) lies on them. I tried to word that so as not to be offensive, but sorry if it does offend anyone. But speaking amorally (or immorally, or perhaps just pragmatically, whichever way you look at it) it probably is a good idea. Most people who "find god" in later life do it during an emotionally difficult time, and for whatever reason it can help them. Religions tend to take a dim view of suicide, and can help give a "purpose", and maybe help re-align their priorities to something less materialistic and more spiritual. I see your viewpoint. I fully believe that if every single religion out there is mistaken that there is a purpose to life and a supreme being, then I hope anyone adhering to them gradually finds that the truth that they believe in is false. If this student struggling to find purpose after rejection at SKY or failure to graduate Seoul University finds a faith that isn't reality but gives him purpose, I hope he comes to realize this later in life. I fully see that you believe proselytizing to people in a 'delicate emotional state' is immoral. Ideally people are able to rationally think about what they believe without outside influence. The current situation in Korea, as described by OP, doesn't allow for that situation, sadly. Then again, if there is a God (or gods) that gives His followers a purpose, then how pitiable is it to never be exposed to it before the student ends his life.
Maybe the sole purpose of your life was to serve as a warning for those who come after you...
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On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
Without US support, Sout Korea would have been overrun by the north long ago.
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On May 25 2011 11:24 jackblack2323 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
I totally agree man. Nothing against Koreans though, I just don't show any sympathy for anyone weak enough to just give up and commit suicide; Korean or not. I think humans are messing up natural selection by telling everyone what to do, and trying to convince the weak to be stronger. just my 2 minerals~
It makes me sad there are people with this little empathy or understanding in the world.
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Who so much bigotry against South Koreans and East Asians? People committing suicide is not something to jeer at.
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On May 24 2011 08:21 imperator-xy wrote: they are really doing it the hard way
at the same time we are doing it the real soft way which makes us fall behind those ambitous countries I'd rather live life to the fullest (read: not having to work all the time) and live in a slightly less rich country than live in a country like Korea where it's all work and no play.
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it gets hard when you put that much pressure on people in their young life. sometimes, it takes failure for one to succeed, but it's hard for some cultures, including my own, when you're failing because of the perception.
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um this has been going on in japan for long time why's it suddenly special now that koreans are doing it?
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On May 24 2011 10:09 Krampus wrote: I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO. This is the problem with measuring success based strictly off of testing. Not much else to be said except I agree with this post.
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I find the status of education in Korea to be rather ridiculous. Thousands of students are being indoctrinated into a mindset of being the best to get a good job so the BIG COMPANY they work for becomes richer. And they get a small piece of the money as a reward.
I'm willing to bet a Korean high school graduate, with no college, who can start and run a successful self employed business, can do as well as or even better than the horde of mindless university graduates.
Remember the old Speed Racer cartoons? There's an example of an Asain mindset. When Speed would be in some tough spot over a race he'd think to himself "I'VE GOT TO WIN, I'VE GOT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT I'M THE BEST. I heard it in many episodes.
Do not think that going to big university and getting a job at the big company is the only way to go, I have known people who became self employed, or invested in real estate and bought and owned many housed that they rented out, and after a few years they did very well on money without much effort. Not even working 40 hours a week.
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On May 26 2011 19:03 Anon06 wrote: um this has been going on in japan for long time why's it suddenly special now that koreans are doing it? Korea's suicide rate is higher.
I don't think I'm gonna bother with the rest of this thread...
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On May 26 2011 06:09 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 06:00 JamesJohansen wrote: Its extremely sad... but I cant help but wish more people were this driven Isnt this an oxymoron? You think its sad that people commit suicide, but you want other people to drive themselves towards suicide?
What? No you're putting words in my mouth. "Yeah guys I really hope more people commit suicide!". No. I just wish people had more drive to succeed in America today. Too many people are content with mediocrity
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On May 26 2011 21:44 McStupid wrote: I find the status of education in Korea to be rather ridiculous. Thousands of students are being indoctrinated into a mindset of being the best to get a good job so the BIG COMPANY they work for becomes richer. And they get a small piece of the money as a reward.
I'm willing to bet a Korean high school graduate, with no college, who can start and run a successful self employed business, can do as well as or even better than the horde of mindless university graduates.
Remember the old Speed Racer cartoons? There's an example of an Asain mindset. When Speed would be in some tough spot over a race he'd think to himself "I'VE GOT TO WIN, I'VE GOT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT I'M THE BEST. I heard it in many episodes.
Do not think that going to big university and getting a job at the big company is the only way to go, I have known people who became self employed, or invested in real estate and bought and owned many housed that they rented out, and after a few years they did very well on money without much effort. Not even working 40 hours a week.
![[image loading]](http://rlv.zcache.com/captain_obvious_button-p145759467563337507t5sj_400.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote: Too many people are content with mediocrity
Holy crap THIS.
I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy."
I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.
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I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO.
Totally agree
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On May 27 2011 02:20 TheGiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote: Too many people are content with mediocrity Holy crap THIS. I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy." I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.
Your version of success may not be theirs. What you think are "good things", they may not see as important. Some people would argue that they could be getting more out of life by doing things a certain way. Everyone is different and want different things out of life, and that's fine.
For example, aiming lower because you don't want the stress, for some people, is a better decision.
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On May 27 2011 21:02 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +I'm a premed student at Williams College, guessing most people haven't heard of it, but from wikipedia: "56 percent of the students were expected to be valedictorian or ranked in the top one percent of their class." We're fairly selective. There is a fine line between nerdiness and insanity, and most students here are so far beyond that line into the realm of insanity that their origins are unrecognizable. What makes me so mad about this whole culture of academic perfection is that for all the hours that a lot of these students put in to get perfect grades, it doesn't really translate into any usefulness. It's all for nothing. It's a correlative effect, rather than a causal effect. The measurements that school use for efficiency's sake are only proxies for the real qualities that they are looking for. For instance, a high GPA in biology is meant to mean you care a whole awful lot about the subject, and as a researcher you would have a passion for it. 99% of what you need to know to perform at a job in say the biotech sciences, you are taught when you are hired. What school is meant to do, is give you a passion, and having a passion for something makes it so you don't have to work hard, because work is easy. There has been tons of research done on how sleep deprivation, chronic stress, and other factors that are brought about by a stressful learning environment can inflict very significant damage neurologically (look up hippocampal neurodegeneration), yet this old anxiety based system of fostering inter-student competition is still used because administrators, professors, and many others are deluded into thing that "no pain, no gain" applies well to academics. Many professors hate this new wave of students with a firey passion because they are like robots who memorize rather than learn to apply concepts, yet at the same time, teach and test in a way that fosters this phenomenon. You know when someone is discussion a particular strategy in starcraft, and you are really into the information, and you can't stop thinking about it? You could spend hours doing unit testing to figure how well something works? That characteristic is what makes a good researcher. Making flash cards of all of the unit stats, and boasting that you know how much a corrupted roach with +2 armor takes from a +1 attack roach doesn't make you a good researcher (edit: I say researcher, because I can only speak from my own experience, but from everything I have ever seen, this is the same for pretty much any profession. Warren Buffet is a pretty good example of this). When you know why you are learning something, you'll remember it for a very long time when you do learn it. If you are learning something so that you can score higher than someone else, you use learning strategies that have a short term advantage. You would think that people so focused on academic improvement would pay attention to the science of learning itself, but it's completely ignored. I think much of it comes down to bigotry and narcissism in the academic community (high schools are measured in SAT scores, premed programs measured in MCAT scores).
FYI, My sister went here as well, and took her life her junior year due to major hypomanic episode set off by academic pressure, much longer story but I'm not going to write my life story out on the innernettes. Also: I think people saying that governments should have protective measures for students under academic pressure think too idealistically about this kind of thing. No matter how you word it, any kind of support system, not would, but does bear a mark of intense shame at the upper levels. The problem here is the manner by which students are taught and tested, and the absurd fact that schools don't care very much about false negatives in test scores. When we hear about Asian countries, and to a lesser extent some western countries, that have systems where 1 exam dictates your placement, we shouldn't be thinking "wow they are harsh, that is terrible" we should be thinking "wow that is an incredibly uneducated and wasteful way of going about doing their job." They are essentially trading a large portion of the career life potential of someone who did badly on 1 exam for the ability to test people in a fast, and more cost effective way. Not a very good trade for society IMO. Totally agree
Yeah, well put. Thanks for sharing that.
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On May 26 2011 10:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 09:10 white_horse wrote:On May 26 2011 09:07 Danglars wrote: Dare I say the South Korean goverrnment should look into more faith-based outreaches as a support network for students trying to deal with the stress? I know religion is frowned upon on these boards, so I don't expect much assent to be given. Give somebody a higher purpose to live pursuing, and you'll find motivation increase and a desire to continue on despite failure. Trying to put this as succinctly as possible; hope the gov't decides to encourage this kind of approach. lol are you really suggesting that the government recommend faith-based action? Now I don't have anything against religion or religious people but that is ridiculous. It's called separation of state and church. Either you are trolling or this is a totally ridiculous idea of trying to spread your ideology on other people. Well are these state-sponsored universities? Hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you would be more receptive if I put it in the eyes of private contributions towards this end. I am having trouble understanding your lack of prejudice against religion or religious people when you aren't against the sharing of ideology. Get the firebrand of the pejorative words, "separation of church and state," thrown at any thought of showing someone a non-secular reason to live. I'm recommending a look at these programs in universities, whether or not the funding is privately-sourced or publicly. The suicides mentioned by the OP point to the need for more than just availability of psychological counseling for students. South Korea already has the highest concentration of Christianity in East Asia, and it's been like this for a long while now. The radically orthodox neo-Calvinist stream of Christianity that has become prominent in Korea is horrendous, yes, but if one doesn't fall into a no true scotsman argument, then it's pretty obvious that "faith based action" hasn't really done much for suicide rates within the country, which has raised steadily while Christianity also rose, all within the recent past.
If you're going to say something, please at least take a preliminary look at the culture. It would help us from discussing things that really have no meaning.
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On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.
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Wow, this honestly just pisses me off. I don't know the statistics on this but if it's that much of a problem I could see this as actually being counterproductive.
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Yea, I read that article a few days ago (could have been yesterday)
I have relatives from home and I do hear from my parents about my cousin's testings and schools. Really depressing
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On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.
no need to validate my argument when you're extending darwin's theory of natural selection (a biological concept that explains the evolution of species) to the structure of society.
meanwhile the rest of us don't live in the 19th century.
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On May 30 2011 14:39 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. no need to validate my argument when you're extending darwin's theory of natural selection (a biological concept that explains the evolution of species) to the structure of society. So your saying genetics have no play in the structure of society?
And no need to be rude, show a little class or at least pretend to 
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On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread.
No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh?
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On May 27 2011 02:20 TheGiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 02:03 JamesJohansen wrote: Too many people are content with mediocrity Holy crap THIS. I find it very upsetting that people today knowingly do things to hurt themselves and their standing in society. Even if your standing in society is not important to you, to allow yourself to fail is some kind of sick self-cruelty. You're basically selling yourself short, and are saying to yourself, "I'm going to get less out of life as a result of this decision and I am OK with that because good things don't make me happy." I find stuff like this heartbreaking. I genuinely want to see good people around me do well but when they sell themselves short I feel nothing but sadness for them. I feel like a father whose son is his world but all his son does is screw up opportunity after opportunity. Why don't people want to do better? There is nothing wrong with failure if you tried your best, but to deliberately aim lower is unfathomable.
Because for some people spending an extra 6-8 years in university during the prime time of their life instead of ending school early to enjoy their time is more favorable. School, studying and good grades are all fine and dandy, but these things fuel hate and anger in a lot of people. Including me.
It's not so much about willingly selling yourself short, it's about not putting yourself through something you know you will hate for years and years for an uncertain reward at the end. Most of what you learn in school is good only FOR school. Memorizing formulas and descriptions is mostly clutter when you get to the job market. You're essentially killing yourself to learn frivolous bullshit so that you're more attractive to an employer in a few years because you have bigger numbers on some transcript. That's not real life, and some people realize this early.
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On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh?
Actually I do agree with Ziegfeld; dreamsmasher, you are messing up Darwinism with Eugenics. Besides fittest doesn't have to mean strongest, it's the ability adapt to your environment. And you cannot deny that nowadays the "safest" way to become successful in life is through academic success ... I know that my argument are not extremely elaborated since I m quite busy at the moment, my puprose is just to point out the validity of Ziegfeld's argument.
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On May 31 2011 01:28 Twistacles wrote: Memorizing formulas and descriptions is mostly clutter when you get to the job market. You're essentially killing yourself to learn frivolous bullshit so that you're more attractive to an employer in a few years because you have bigger numbers on some transcript. That's not real life, and some people realize this early.
That is real life, actually. That piece of paper is a ticket to any job I want. If you and I were to apply for the same job, I'd get hired before you. That means I have a source of income that I can use on trips, experiences, and opportunities.+ Show Spoiler +But you'll argue that you don't want some high tech 6 figure job - you want something a little more 'reasonable.' So let's apply for a worse job. I've worked 10 jobs in 10 different industries in the last 7 years. That's a lot of work experience. And I'm in university so I must be a hard worker. Looks like I got hired over you again.
So you say you've given yourself more time to do stuff by opting not to go to school. What do you think I've missed out on, really? The answer is nothing aside from a night out here and there.
These Koreans realize this. That's why they devote so much time and effort to studying; the opportunities afterward are limitless.
It must take a lot of effort to maintain delusions like you do.
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I don't know. What can the government do? Even if they tried to change things it's already embedded the the culture. Asian culture places academic excellence very highly, even if the government were to somehow transform the system around, the horrible competition will still exist, it's just the way the people as a collective view things.
University here is the same thing. It is horrible to run through one semester knowing that there are people around you who study all day long, and it becomes worse when it comes to examinations. People study from 8 am in the morning till midnight every day till the exams are over, just to get that nice grade. The ugliness surfaces when people actually don't help you in your work because they want to be ahead of you.
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On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes.
And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread.
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On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism
ya great theory.
except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'.
who's the one showing class here?
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On May 31 2011 02:09 sceroh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Actually I do agree with Ziegfeld; dreamsmasher, you are messing up Darwinism with Eugenics. Besides fittest doesn't have to mean strongest, it's the ability adapt to your environment. And you cannot deny that nowadays the "safest" way to become successful in life is through academic success ... I know that my argument are not extremely elaborated since I m quite busy at the moment, my puprose is just to point out the validity of Ziegfeld's argument.
Yes, education is important and a safe way to get a decent life. But thats not - and SHOULD NOT - be the ONLY way, and NOT something worth DYING for. It's extremely rediculous. Should people that don't get an academic education die? Is that your view of natural selection? Should we all become academics or die out? How many on earth do you think would survive?
Korea has a screwed up education system/society that needs fixing. Period. Nothing justifies the pressure that makes student go suicide, ESPECIALLY not 'natural' selection.
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On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismbut ya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Eugenics has been around long before Hitler, and in fact, the British were exceedingly fond of it. One of the main reasons that social darwinism and human evolutionary theory took off as it did was due to the significant British racism and eugenic ideals that existed in the 17th-20th centuries. With Darwin's theories, it really kicked off. Now the British had a "scientific" basis for "proving" that they were "superior" to other human beings.
And we could talk about a ton of other occasions in Europe alone, but point is it didn't start with the Germans, and in fact the Germans were just adhering to what was quite popular in much of Europe at the time anyways. And whoever mentioned the holocaust, keep it relevant (it has nothing to do with social Darwinism), or at least mention something that isn't a matter of controversy and perhaps excessively exaggerated, even though many such things are by one group or another.
Eugenics movement and racial prejudice and capitalism started long before Darwin, and the second thing has existed since the beginnings of humanity quite possibly, especially if we are to consider racism at xenophobia of different ethnic groups rather than just genetic races.
Social darwinism relegates humans to being like any other creature, without thought, abstraction, reason, conscience, judgment, etc. I find this quite flawed as humans and human society are infinitely more complex. The person you replied to is attempting to give a poor "scientific" explanation to the situation, though humans cannot in the slightest be evaluated on such simple terms.
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this is really awful, poor kids =/
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On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this.
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On May 31 2011 03:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismbut ya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Eugenics has been around long before Hitler, and in fact, the British were exceedingly fond of it. One of the main reasons that social darwinism and human evolutionary theory took off as it did was due to the significant British racism and eugenic ideals that existed in the 17th-20th centuries. With Darwin's theories, it really kicked off. Now the British had a "scientific" basis for "proving" that they were "superior" to other human beings. And we could talk about a ton of other occasions in Europe alone, but point is it didn't start with the Germans, and in fact the Germans were just adhering to what was quite popular in much of Europe at the time anyways. And whoever mentioned the holocaust, keep it relevant (it has nothing to do with social Darwinism), or at least mention something that isn't a matter of controversy and perhaps excessively exaggerated, even though many such things are by one group or another. Eugenics movement and racial prejudice and capitalism started long before Darwin, and the second thing has existed since the beginnings of humanity quite possibly, especially if we are to consider racism at xenophobia of different ethnic groups rather than just genetic races. Social darwinism relegates humans to being like any other creature, without thought, abstraction, reason, conscience, judgment, etc. I find this quite flawed as humans and human society are infinitely more complex. The person you replied to is attempting to give a poor "scientific" explanation to the situation, though humans cannot in the slightest be evaluated on such simple terms.
it was still used as a pseudo intellectual basis for all of that shit?
but yes i agree with the rest of what you were saying, i just typed what i typed and gave a quick wiki link because it was one of those 'i can't believe i'm having this kind of arguments'.
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On May 31 2011 03:27 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this.
what? lol you can justify anything with social darwinism...that's kind of the absurdity of taking a biological concept taking an analogue of it and then applying it to society.
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ya it's kind of sad.
on the other hand ~30000 children will die in africa today because they don't have enough food to eat.
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On May 31 2011 03:29 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 03:27 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this. what? lol you can justify anything with social darwinism...that's kind of the absurdity of taking a biological concept taking an analogue of it and then applying it to society. It's more than a concept, it's reality.
Also, yes. If someone's intentions are suicide, then they are weak, or in a severe state of weakness. I don't think anything deserves to die, I wish we lived in a utopia with unlimited resources and no conflict what so ever. However, we don't, so sometimes nature separates the chaff from the wheat.
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I don't know much about South Korea, but you neighbour Japan has the highest suicide rate of the world. All of this is caused by social pressure. Neighbours, family, colleagues... Since a lot of young Japanese people are looking towards the european/american way of style, with more vacations, more time with family etc, the suicides are becoming less common (they have a lot of other social problems btw but it's not the thread). They are able to think that way because they lost this overwhelming feeling that they must work the harder they can to be the best of the world, because they are almost already. That's why I think you'll just have to wait some years to let korean people to learn how to take a break. I think one thing should be to stop this thing with exams (canceling all flights etc) which put a freakin' ton of pressure on students.
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On May 31 2011 04:06 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 03:29 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 03:27 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. ya and what i am telling you is that you basically you didn't understand natural selection when it was taught to you in 9th grade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this. what? lol you can justify anything with social darwinism...that's kind of the absurdity of taking a biological concept taking an analogue of it and then applying it to society. It's more than a concept, it's reality. Also, yes. If someone's intentions are suicide, then they are weak, or in a severe state of weakness. I don't think anything deserves to die, I wish we lived in a utopia with unlimited resources and no conflict what so ever. However, we don't, so sometimes nature separates the chaff from the wheat.
ya and wat i am telling you is that you misunderstood natural selection in 9th grade and should go retake it.
so when i beat you up and take all of your money that's just too bad. you're weak i'm strong LOLOL. great social doctrine there.
sad that you can't see what's wrong with that line of thinking.
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On May 31 2011 04:06 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 03:29 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 03:27 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this. what? lol you can justify anything with social darwinism...that's kind of the absurdity of taking a biological concept taking an analogue of it and then applying it to society. It's more than a concept, it's reality. Also, yes. If someone's intentions are suicide, then they are weak, or in a severe state of weakness. I don't think anything deserves to die, I wish we lived in a utopia with unlimited resources and no conflict what so ever. However, we don't, so sometimes nature separates the chaff from the wheat.
you realize life doesn't actually have some type of set in stone rule that weak ppl should die off and strong ppl should survive?
that seems to be what you believe.
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On May 31 2011 08:18 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 04:06 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 03:29 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 03:27 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 02:49 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 31 2011 02:35 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 31 2011 01:19 KaiserJohan wrote:On May 30 2011 11:54 ZiegFeld wrote:On May 26 2011 02:24 dreamsmasher wrote:On May 25 2011 08:58 ZiegFeld wrote: It's survival of the fittest in a world of limited resources. Nature's natural selection at work, there really isn't anything to be done about it.
this is the stupidest shit i have ever heard. go take 9th grade biology again. Great argument, good representation of every post you've made in this thread. No, he is correct, Ziegfeld, that was probably the worst argument I've ever heard. It's like saying the holocaust is fine because of natural selection. Strongest survives eh? Sure some wrong people get caught in the net, but in general it does work. That doesn't mean every death is justified, or beneficial towards society, but it certainty doesn't justify exhausting every resource for unworthy causes. And please don't change the topic towards the holocaust, it has nothing to do with these suicides in Korea and your derailing the thread. ya and what i am telling you is that you basically you didn't understand natural selection when it was taught to you in 9th grade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinismya great theory. except social darwinism was a major source of influence for hitler, the eugenics movement, all sorts of racial prejudice, laissez faire capitalism, etc.. that has happened in the past. to boldly claim what you're claiming and then be seemingly ignorant of all that and then go and post in a thread about SUICIDE saying 'oh well this isn't important at all cuz they're all just weak and deserved to die'. who's the one showing class here? Stop bringing your emotions in this. what? lol you can justify anything with social darwinism...that's kind of the absurdity of taking a biological concept taking an analogue of it and then applying it to society. It's more than a concept, it's reality. Also, yes. If someone's intentions are suicide, then they are weak, or in a severe state of weakness. I don't think anything deserves to die, I wish we lived in a utopia with unlimited resources and no conflict what so ever. However, we don't, so sometimes nature separates the chaff from the wheat. ya and wat i am telling you is that you misunderstood natural selection in 9th grade and should go retake it. so when i beat you up and take all of your money that's just too bad. you're weak i'm strong LOLOL. great social doctrine there. sad that you can't see what's wrong with that line of thinking. If someone would care to point it out, please do, I'm open to argument.
And stop crying.
On May 31 2011 10:54 swisher3 wrote:you realize life doesn't actually have some type of set in stone rule that weak ppl should die off and strong ppl should survive?
that seems to be what you believe. There's no rule they SHOULD die, or survive. But in the long run, it's not beneficial to maintain something that doesn't pay for itself, when we don't have the luxury to do so.
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On May 31 2011 10:54 swisher3 wrote:you realize life doesn't actually have some type of set in stone rule that weak ppl should die off and strong ppl should survive?
that seems to be what you believe. There's no rule they SHOULD die, or survive. But in the long run, it's not beneficial to maintain something that doesn't pay for itself, when we don't have the luxury to do so. [/QUOTE]
explain more? not beneficial as opposed to what? why don't we have the luxury to fix the issues that cause people to become "weak", as you say?
its funny cause you probably think you have a cold logical view on all of this but it's actually very irrational.
do you think we shouldn't help poor starving people either, because they're also weak? they share something similar with the suicidal, you know. they both have no control over the fact that they're starving/depressed.
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