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On September 19 2010 17:23 kammeyer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:15 Half wrote:On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
Ethnic cleansing? No, no it didn't.
Num 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I'm really not trying to be vindictive against Christians here. Normally in threads where people go around uniformly yelling "ALL RELIGION IS TERRIBAD", I defend the merits of religion. (For instance, thanks to religion, Blitzreig is able to comprehend the value of human life :/) I'm not even asking you refrain from criticizing Atheism. Criticism can only strengthen any system of belief. But if you want to, please don't do so from a base of ignorance kthx. ? Did you decide to copy and paste something from Biblegateway.com or wikipedia? It's not a base of ignorance, it's from a base from going to private school for the past 15 years of my life. There was no form of ethnic cleansing in the Bible, ever. Not even in Sadam and Gomorrah was there ethnic cleansing. You'll have to search harder, Half. because not a single time has the Bible ever done something as historically damaging as what Hitler did to the Jewish culture.
Look, are you denying the existence of the quotes? Perhaps you would want to argue the context they were given?
Because those quotes, taken in context, are by definition, an Ethnic cleansing.
Or are you saying that its not an Ethnic cleasing just because they didn't quite get as many people as the Nazis?
it's from a base from going to private school for the past 15 years of my life.
So in other words, your ethos is a high school education in theology in a religious private school.
You'll have to forgive me for not being impressed.
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While on the topic of religion... just curious, is following Buddhism as a way to live life but not believe any of the afterlife things atheism?
Anyways, I kind of believe that the pope was a little out of line here. He should know that his words have very much gravity to them and should probably choose his words a little more wisely.
PS- Does it annoy anyone when some christian/catholic/any other religious person approaches you and tries to preach the word of god or whatever religion to you and tries to convince you to convert? Peeves the hell out of me. Sorry. my mind wanders a lot.
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On September 19 2010 17:23 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:10 Blix wrote:On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists? Yes. I find offense in many things everyday all day. If you can show me how this isn't true please tell me. Atheism strips meaning and purpose and value from everything except self preservation and reproduction.
Very enlightening, where's your proof of THIS?
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On September 19 2010 17:15 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 16:45 blitzkrieger wrote:
If Hitler used the Church for anything it was just that, to use them. I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't a master race according to Hitler (or Italians for that matter) yet he enlisted their aid to accomplish his own goals. If Hitler had won I am sure he would have disposed of not only the Church but also Japan when he saw fit.
I mean even if you believe the Catholic Church helped Hitler I don't think anyone believes that Christian values and Nazism have any real similarities. And its in the Christian religion that the Church (organization) can and will become corrupt, it was said be Jesus too.
If you take away religion you are just left with natural selection. And people will abuse that to say who is "fit" or not and be even more selfish. I mean WW2 already had that. Life is a FFA where every action is to gain and everyone are really enemies. There is no justification for anything except to further oneself. Things like abortion are already accepted by many and soon we will have designer babies because "its not a life". They already do selective abortion in China for women which is a huge problem, I read there will be 120million bachelors in China in a few years because they aborted so many female babies, wish I had the source...
I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
Most people believe this even though the internet, and gaming are filled with young liberals/atheists for the most part so I'll get like 50 flames for this but I don't care. You can criticize me and the Pope all you want but I should be able to criticize atheism just as well.
wtf are you talking about?? morals? you look for morals in religion? tell me 1 concrete event where atheism is bad and ill give you 10 concrete events why organized religion is bad .. fuck the pope .. tell me, why do christians all over the world needs a pope?
Only Catholics follow the Pope. And there are like 2+ billion Catholics.
I can give many reasons religion and the abuse of scripture can be bad as well.
I can only find ONE reason for doing something good in Atheism (social contract) and thats not even doing good, that is looking for a reward for mutual benefit. Help is only given if it can return some other form of help.
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On September 19 2010 17:20 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:11 kammeyer wrote:
Uh, the Nazis were attempting to "ethnically" cleanse society. Nothing about Hitler or his regime was "Christian" in the slightest. It doesn't matter if he claimed himself as a Christian or attempted to move against the atheist movement, it's all about what the agenda is/was. Whether Hitler said it or not that humanity requires "faith", it's not as if any of his actions showed he was putting faith in God or any other form of moralistic fiber in the world.
The "exclusion" of religion and virtue makes no sense to me seeing as he almost wiped out a race of humanity. The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Either way, it's not a huge deal because our society is in an individualism age where people think "Man can overcome." it's nothing history has not seen before. Shortly after it'll go straight into a reformation age where society is completely reliant on religion and/or God. Sorry but uh, if Leonardo DaVinci can come to the end of his life and figure there must be some form of Creator than not too many other pseudo "intellectuals" are above his train of thought either. See, clearly you must see how ridiculous it is when religious people claim that atheism influenced hitlers beliefs in any way, because you seem to be a hugely reasonable human being whether or not you believe in a god (which I believe you do). So, we can hopefully find some common ground in the complete unacceptence in blitzkrieger's post on the previous page, which I found to be horribly offensive and uninformed. If I were a mod I would temp ban him to give him a few days to think about the inaccuracies and the generalizations of the things he said. However in response to your post, Leonardo DaVinci was a highly intellectual, thoughful individual for his time. Unfortunately for him, however, his entire worth of knowledge is easily surpassed by the average college graduate of the modern era. And, considering the fact that 93% of his modern-day in-field colleagues are atheist, I find it hard to doubt that he would also be an athiest if he were alive today and had the same mindset that made him that great scientist of his day. Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:16 kammeyer wrote:On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
I heard Einstein was pretty smart. Newton? A lot of people actually. In fact some monk found out how cells and basic genetics work. Even DARWIN was a priest (or monk forget) when he studied the Galapagos Islands (sp?). In fact people who are religious are people who question and see order and wonder why this is or that is. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.
I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith.
All of those people were either Deist or Agnostic. All of them would have disagree with all of your viewpoints, and indeed, according to your religion, would burn. i suggest you read a bit more about Darwin, because you're immensely far off. Darwin was in fact a Christian, as well as Einstein as well as Leonardo DaVinci. All of them referred to God as Creator at some duration of their life. Einstein referred to "god as creator" in only the most metaphorical of sentiments. However even in those senses, you're only referring to those men because they were great scientists of their times. Well, if you know anything about science you should know that the leading scientists of today have immensely vaster knowledge of the universe than newton, or davinci or even einstien, and 93% of today's scientists are atheists.
That's immensely far off, 93% of scientists today are not atheists in the slightest. I have no idea where you got that figure, but I suggest looking it up again.
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Comments like his are the reason that the average Christian is bashed so often. Granted the militant atheists don't make it easy. They forget that the loudest people tend to be the dumbest. A couple idiots are not an accurate representation of a whole people.
Also funny how he thinks it's appropriate to make these statements, considering all the problems the Catholic Church has been facing lately you'd think that he would work more towards appeasing the general populace rather than make inflammatory comments.
edit: Kammeyer where do you come up with these statistics? "93% of scientists are not atheist in the slightest" Atheism is growing, it's becoming more and more popular to state that you don't believe in a God than it is to say that you do.
If you're going to try and defend religion at least do it intelligently rather than blurt out false statistics and opinions.
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On September 19 2010 17:25 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith. Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty. Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.. Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible. In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread.
This thread is attacking the Pope and religion. And if explaining why I agree with the Pope is aggressive than so be it. Thats what Christians do, we're salty, world don't like it.
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On September 19 2010 17:23 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:10 Blix wrote:On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists? Yes. I find offense in many things everyday all day. If you can show me how this isn't true please tell me. Atheism strips meaning and purpose and value from everything except self preservation and reproduction.
this and most of your posts in this thread contain the most stupid close minded bullshit I have ever had the misfortune to read. A persons morals arn't dictated by a God or a fucking book they are dictated by the person who chooses to believe in them, theres plenty of Christians out there who say they believe in god and do the exact moral opposite of what the "good book" teaches you.
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On September 19 2010 17:25 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:23 kammeyer wrote:On September 19 2010 17:15 Half wrote:On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
Ethnic cleansing? No, no it didn't.
Num 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I'm really not trying to be vindictive against Christians here. Normally in threads where people go around uniformly yelling "ALL RELIGION IS TERRIBAD", I defend the merits of religion. (For instance, thanks to religion, Blitzreig is able to comprehend the value of human life :/) I'm not even asking you refrain from criticizing Atheism. Criticism can only strengthen any system of belief. But if you want to, please don't do so from a base of ignorance kthx. ? Did you decide to copy and paste something from Biblegateway.com or wikipedia? It's not a base of ignorance, it's from a base from going to private school for the past 15 years of my life. There was no form of ethnic cleansing in the Bible, ever. Not even in Sadam and Gomorrah was there ethnic cleansing. You'll have to search harder, Half. because not a single time has the Bible ever done something as historically damaging as what Hitler did to the Jewish culture. Look, are you denying the existence of the quotes? Perhaps you would want to argue the context they were given? Because those quotes, taken in context, are by definition, an Ethnic cleansing. Or are you saying that its not an Ethnic cleasing just because they didn't quite get as many people as the Nazis?
I'm saying that nearly everyone, including the most radical and insane religious leaders of this world are capable of taking verses out of context and twisting them around for their agenda. It's nothing new, Half. It's actually the same exact thing the original poster is doing. Taking a very simple text and taking it out of context to make it seem belligerent and foolish. You'd have be a damn moron to think that Hitler had any form of Christianity views in him what so ever without being biased towards the dictator. If you truly knew the 10 commandments or anything about the Bible, the entire thing would be a complete fallacy.
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On September 19 2010 17:26 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:15 aimaimaim wrote:On September 19 2010 16:45 blitzkrieger wrote:
If Hitler used the Church for anything it was just that, to use them. I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't a master race according to Hitler (or Italians for that matter) yet he enlisted their aid to accomplish his own goals. If Hitler had won I am sure he would have disposed of not only the Church but also Japan when he saw fit.
I mean even if you believe the Catholic Church helped Hitler I don't think anyone believes that Christian values and Nazism have any real similarities. And its in the Christian religion that the Church (organization) can and will become corrupt, it was said be Jesus too.
If you take away religion you are just left with natural selection. And people will abuse that to say who is "fit" or not and be even more selfish. I mean WW2 already had that. Life is a FFA where every action is to gain and everyone are really enemies. There is no justification for anything except to further oneself. Things like abortion are already accepted by many and soon we will have designer babies because "its not a life". They already do selective abortion in China for women which is a huge problem, I read there will be 120million bachelors in China in a few years because they aborted so many female babies, wish I had the source...
I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
Most people believe this even though the internet, and gaming are filled with young liberals/atheists for the most part so I'll get like 50 flames for this but I don't care. You can criticize me and the Pope all you want but I should be able to criticize atheism just as well.
wtf are you talking about?? morals? you look for morals in religion? tell me 1 concrete event where atheism is bad and ill give you 10 concrete events why organized religion is bad .. fuck the pope .. tell me, why do christians all over the world needs a pope? Only Catholics follow the Pope. And there are like 2+ billion Catholics. I can give many reasons religion and the abuse of scripture can be bad as well. I can only find ONE reason for doing something good in Atheism (social contract) and thats not even doing good, that is looking for a reward for mutual benefit. Help is only given if it can return some other form of help.
I can't find anything good with the Bible. You're basically out for yourself because then you wouldn't get into Heaven.
See what I did there?
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On September 19 2010 16:48 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 16:41 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:
If atheists abused 1000's of innocent children like they have, I would listen to what this old troll has to say. Fact is though, that it's him and his followers that have done so. There are actually much less pedophiles in the Church than the general population by quite some amount (20x less?). Again I wish I had a source but I don't. And I don't excuse them for trying to have "damage control" for it either. I'm not even Catholic.
You are so blind, I'm not gonna waste any more time on you (after this). The Pope and The Catholic church has accepted a figure saying '5% or 1/20' of the priests have abused children. You can have your kiddy fiddler religion all for yourself mate. You're making up statistics as you go a long, not 1/20 of the general population are peadophiles and have commited crimes like this. This was broadcast on Sky News yesterday, now you go find a source for your imaginary statistics and catholic priests will hopefully be able to abuse children for many more years to come.
edit: I just realized that by your statistics I.E. the general population having 20times as high a rate of peadophelia as The Catholic Church would mean that every single person who's not a priest would be a peadophile. Do you still think your inventend statistics are correct? or do you admit that you are just slinging random stuff out and trolling in general?
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On September 19 2010 17:28 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:25 hifriend wrote:On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith. Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty. On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.. Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible. In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread. This thread is attacking the Pope and religion. And if explaining why I agree with the Pope is aggressive than so be it. Thats what Christians do, we're salty, world don't like it.
That's not what all Christians do. You yourself are ignorant and base your warped idea of Atheism on who knows what. You have no sources to back up your claim.
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On September 19 2010 17:25 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith. Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty. Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.. Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible. In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread.
People first looked for laws because they believe in order from God. Since God made the universe there had to be undiscovered laws of how thinks work. The empirical science we have today is a direct result of the belief in God. Science believes, without knowing, there are laws and order to be discovered. Again wish I had sources...
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On September 19 2010 17:23 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:10 Blix wrote:On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists? Yes. I find offense in many things everyday all day. If you can show me how this isn't true please tell me. Atheism strips meaning and purpose and value from everything except self preservation and reproduction.
It strips value from what in your mind is percieved as god and a greater meaning so I can somewhat see how that's upsetting. Still, that doesn't change the fact that we've up to this point never come across anything that's indicating any religions have anything to do with reality. And you don't need to tell me that because I'm atheist I can't value human life or have other things bring meaning to my existence.
On September 19 2010 17:30 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:25 hifriend wrote:On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith. Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty. On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.. Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible. In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread. People first looked for laws because they believe in order from God. Since God made the universe there had to be undiscovered laws of how thinks work. The empirical science we have today is a direct result of the belief in God. Science believes, without knowing, there are laws and order to be discovered. Again wish I had sources...
Then why has religious institutions so blatantly been working against religion throughout our history and why is it that even today, when most scientists are in fact atheists, we're still making progress and our thirst of knowledge isn't diminishing. I don't understand how you can credit religion for anything to do with science, that's actually disturbing considering the amount of damage religion has caused sciences throughout our history.
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Blitzkrieg could you stop fucking telling us how what our own belief is?
I know thats kind of Religions "thing", but not so much for Atheism.
I can only find ONE reason for doing something good in Atheism (social contract) and thats not even doing good, that is looking for a reward for mutual benefit. Help is only given if it can return some other form of help.
See, just because you need to be eternally rewarded for your actions to do something that doesn't reward you (wut), doesn't mean we all need to.
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The discrepancy is thinking that most normal Christians claim to be perfect, when in actuality Christianity is a struggle to become whole and closer with God. While they're no better than Atheists, the argument is at least they're trying and recognizing the struggle between human instincts and divinity.
That's the main problem with society and the church today. One group sees nothing wrong with human instincts and the other group is pompous in thinking they're any better than the human instincts of what the general population makes even though the general population sees nothing wrong with there instincts.
That's the entire argument. Hitler's ethnic cleansing and Biblical wars are no where near in the same vicinity as one another. You can argue that until you're blue in the face, it's just unfortunately not the case no matter how much you want to twist Biblical scripture to your heart's desire.
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On September 19 2010 17:27 Pioneer wrote:
Comments like his are the reason that the average Christian is bashed so often. Granted the militant atheists don't make it easy. They forget that the loudest people tend to be the dumbest. A couple idiots are not an accurate representation of a whole people.
Also funny how he thinks it's appropriate to make these statements, considering all the problems the Catholic Church has been facing lately you'd think that he would work more towards appeasing the general populace rather than make inflammatory comments.
edit: Kammeyer where do you come up with these statistics? "93% of scientists are not atheist in the slightest" Atheism is growing, it's becoming more and more popular to state that you don't believe in a God than it is to say that you do.
If you're going to try and defend religion at least do it intelligently rather than blurt out false statistics and opinions.
Hi, uh, someone blurted out that statistic before me. It works both ways, champ. 93% of scientists are atheists is nowhere near the case. It's not even remotely close.
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On September 19 2010 17:26 TOloseGT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:23 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 17:10 Blix wrote:On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists? Yes. I find offense in many things everyday all day. If you can show me how this isn't true please tell me. Atheism strips meaning and purpose and value from everything except self preservation and reproduction. Very enlightening, where's your proof of THIS?
Thats what atheism is by definition. I don't know how to explain it any better.
Evolution
Goals:
1: Self Preserve
2: Reproduce (once reproduce 1 is null).
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On September 19 2010 17:30 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:25 hifriend wrote:On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith. Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty. On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.. Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible. In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread. People first looked for laws because they believe in order from God. Since God made the universe there had to be undiscovered laws of how thinks work. The empirical science we have today is a direct result of the belief in God. Science believes, without knowing, there are laws and order to be discovered. Again wish I had sources...
Law and order predates the "discovery" of God.
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On September 19 2010 17:21 CheezDip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:16 kammeyer wrote:
i suggest you read a bit more about Darwin, because you're immensely far off. Darwin was in fact a Christian, as well as Einstein as well as Leonardo DaVinci. All of them referred to God as Creator at some duration of their life. Maybe you need to read a bit more, because Darwin lost his faith in the bible as the word of god and became a self-proclaimed agnostic. Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Einstein: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Lol, Darwin lost his faith because his daughter died - nothing more, nothing less.
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EPT
