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On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists?
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On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
I'm truly sorry you need religion to justify the value of human life. I really don't know what to say. I'm glad you have a God to believe in then...
I however, as an Atheist, do not feel that way :/. Atheism in general leans away from that direction.
Yes I know its wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_AgesToday it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages[6]. However, most modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.[7][8]
This has absolutely no relevance to the discussion on hand. Ok. The "Early-Middle Ages", and through in the Migration Era and pretty much everything since the fall of Rome (A secular nation).
As far as the west is concerned, that 1000 block chunk of time was a time of almost zero social, scientific, or cultural progress.
There are of course, a few small exceptions. Not surprisingly, all these exceptions occurred in areas outside of the influence of the Papacy.
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Uh, the Nazis were attempting to "ethnically" cleanse society. Nothing about Hitler or his regime was "Christian" in the slightest. It doesn't matter if he claimed himself as a Christian or attempted to move against the atheist movement, it's all about what the agenda is/was. Whether Hitler said it or not that humanity requires "faith", it's not as if any of his actions showed he was putting faith in God or any other form of moralistic fiber in the world.
The "exclusion" of religion and virtue makes no sense to me seeing as he almost wiped out a race of humanity. The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Either way, it's not a huge deal because our society is in an individualism age where people think "Man can overcome." it's nothing history has not seen before. Shortly after it'll go straight into a reformation age where society is completely reliant on religion and/or God. Sorry but uh, if Leonardo DaVinci can come to the end of his life and figure there must be some form of Creator than not too many other pseudo "intellectuals" are above his train of thought either.
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The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
I heard Einstein was pretty smart. Newton? A lot of people actually. In fact some monk found out how cells and basic genetics work. Even DARWIN was a priest (or monk forget) when he studied the Galapagos Islands (sp?). In fact people who are religious are people who question and see order and wonder why this is or that is. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.
I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith.
All of those people were either Deist or Agnostic. All of them would have disagree with all of your viewpoints, and indeed, according to your religion, would burn.
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On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
Ethnic cleansing? No, no it didn't.
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If we're going to play the "atheism is dangerous because X, Y, and Z were atheists and killed a lot of people" game, the theists are going to lose bigtime.
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no clue why it posted again.
edit
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United States512 Posts
On September 19 2010 17:08 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 19 2010 16:49 Half wrote:
I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
Speak for yourself. Humanism, the school of though predominantly responsible for the cultural notion of the intrinsic value of human life, was founded by Atheist and Deist scholars during the enlightenment, and the rebirth of secular thought in the west. Before that, when religion itself dictated human morale, we had the Dark Ages. Though if you need religion to justify being kind towards other human beings, by my guest. Continue to believe in what you do. I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine. I also have heard the Dark Ages were full of advances and they are thinknig of changing the name from teh Dark Age to something else. Again I don't have sources for any of this but I do know the Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler were atheists and did horrible acts and that abortion has killed more than all the people in all the wars of all time. Yes I know its wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_AgesToday it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages[6]. However, most modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.[7][8] How the hell can you say something like that, I do value life animals' humans also. I'm very much atheist and I would not without thought just do whatever the hell I want just cause there is no code which say to me not to. So I should be evidence enough against your argument if anything. Just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I have no feelings, all humans do to a more or lesser extent and I'll be damned if there are not billions of religious people with less respect for other people than me. Just because there is no God which dictates the value of life to you doesn't mean you can value life by yourself. If so why are there animal flocks and Elephants, Dolphins that have saved humans when they were about to die? It's not religion that's for sure, if they were egoists they would just go about their way and spare whatever energy they could have saved doing something else.
Maybe God did it and its a miracle. Are you happy now? Why would evolution have those animals help humans seems to be the harder question. Don't humans kill and eat most animals? I can think of an answer for your evolution side but lets see if the smart atheist can. Here don't click the spoiler until you have the reason. Its on the honor system so you can lie if you want and I'll never know.
+ Show Spoiler +Some animals stop predators from feeding because it is beneficial to weaken the common enemy the predator.
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On September 19 2010 16:45 blitzkrieger wrote:
If Hitler used the Church for anything it was just that, to use them. I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't a master race according to Hitler (or Italians for that matter) yet he enlisted their aid to accomplish his own goals. If Hitler had won I am sure he would have disposed of not only the Church but also Japan when he saw fit.
I mean even if you believe the Catholic Church helped Hitler I don't think anyone believes that Christian values and Nazism have any real similarities. And its in the Christian religion that the Church (organization) can and will become corrupt, it was said be Jesus too.
If you take away religion you are just left with natural selection. And people will abuse that to say who is "fit" or not and be even more selfish. I mean WW2 already had that. Life is a FFA where every action is to gain and everyone are really enemies. There is no justification for anything except to further oneself. Things like abortion are already accepted by many and soon we will have designer babies because "its not a life". They already do selective abortion in China for women which is a huge problem, I read there will be 120million bachelors in China in a few years because they aborted so many female babies, wish I had the source...
I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
Most people believe this even though the internet, and gaming are filled with young liberals/atheists for the most part so I'll get like 50 flames for this but I don't care. You can criticize me and the Pope all you want but I should be able to criticize atheism just as well.
wtf are you talking about??
morals? you look for morals in religion?
tell me 1 concrete event where atheism is bad and ill give you 10 concrete events why organized religion is bad ..
fuck the pope .. tell me, why do christians all over the world needs a pope?
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On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
Ethnic cleansing? No, no it didn't.
Num 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I'm really not trying to be vindictive against Christians here. Normally in threads where people go around uniformly yelling "ALL RELIGION IS TERRIBAD", I defend the merits of religion. (For instance, thanks to religion, Blitzreig is able to comprehend the value of human life :/)
I'm not even asking you refrain from criticizing Atheism. Criticism can only strengthen any system of belief. But if you want to, please don't do so from a base of ignorance kthx.
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On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several. Show nested quote +
I heard Einstein was pretty smart. Newton? A lot of people actually. In fact some monk found out how cells and basic genetics work. Even DARWIN was a priest (or monk forget) when he studied the Galapagos Islands (sp?). In fact people who are religious are people who question and see order and wonder why this is or that is. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.
I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith.
All of those people were either Deist or Agnostic. All of them would have disagree with all of your viewpoints, and indeed, according to your religion, would burn.
i suggest you read a bit more about Darwin, because you're immensely far off. Darwin was in fact a Christian, as well as Einstein as well as Leonardo DaVinci. All of them referred to God as Creator at some duration of their life.
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I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
I find these comments wildly entertaining. They actually made me chuckle.
This is almost as good as the Anarchism thread.
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On September 19 2010 17:11 kammeyer wrote:
Uh, the Nazis were attempting to "ethnically" cleanse society. Nothing about Hitler or his regime was "Christian" in the slightest. It doesn't matter if he claimed himself as a Christian or attempted to move against the atheist movement, it's all about what the agenda is/was. Whether Hitler said it or not that humanity requires "faith", it's not as if any of his actions showed he was putting faith in God or any other form of moralistic fiber in the world.
The "exclusion" of religion and virtue makes no sense to me seeing as he almost wiped out a race of humanity. The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Either way, it's not a huge deal because our society is in an individualism age where people think "Man can overcome." it's nothing history has not seen before. Shortly after it'll go straight into a reformation age where society is completely reliant on religion and/or God. Sorry but uh, if Leonardo DaVinci can come to the end of his life and figure there must be some form of Creator than not too many other pseudo "intellectuals" are above his train of thought either.
See, clearly you must see how ridiculous it is when religious people claim that atheism influenced hitlers beliefs in any way, because you seem to be a hugely reasonable human being whether or not you believe in a god (which I believe you do). So, we can hopefully find some common ground in the complete unacceptence in blitzkrieger's post on the previous page, which I found to be horribly offensive and uninformed. If I were a mod I would temp ban him to give him a few days to think about the inaccuracies and the generalizations of the things he said.
However in response to your post, Leonardo DaVinci was a highly intellectual, thoughful individual for his time. Unfortunately for him, however, his entire worth of knowledge is easily surpassed by the average college graduate of the modern era. And, considering the fact that 93% of his modern-day in-field colleagues are atheist, I find it hard to doubt that he would also be an athiest if he were alive today and had the same mindset that made him that great scientist of his day.
On September 19 2010 17:16 kammeyer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
I heard Einstein was pretty smart. Newton? A lot of people actually. In fact some monk found out how cells and basic genetics work. Even DARWIN was a priest (or monk forget) when he studied the Galapagos Islands (sp?). In fact people who are religious are people who question and see order and wonder why this is or that is. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them.
I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith.
All of those people were either Deist or Agnostic. All of them would have disagree with all of your viewpoints, and indeed, according to your religion, would burn. i suggest you read a bit more about Darwin, because you're immensely far off. Darwin was in fact a Christian, as well as Einstein as well as Leonardo DaVinci. All of them referred to God as Creator at some duration of their life.
Einstein referred to "god as creator" in only the most metaphorical of sentiments. However even in those senses, you're only referring to those men because they were great scientists of their times. Well, if you know anything about science you should know that the leading scientists of today have immensely vaster knowledge of the universe than newton, or davinci or even einstien, and 93% of today's scientists are atheists.
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On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 16:49 Half wrote:
I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.
Speak for yourself. Humanism, the school of though predominantly responsible for the cultural notion of the intrinsic value of human life, was founded by Atheist and Deist scholars during the enlightenment, and the rebirth of secular thought in the west. Before that, when religion itself dictated human morale, we had the Dark Ages. Though if you need religion to justify being kind towards other human beings, by my guest. Continue to believe in what you do. I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine. I also have heard the Dark Ages were full of advances and they are thinknig of changing the name from teh Dark Age to something else. Again I don't have sources for any of this but I do know the Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler were atheists and did horrible acts and that abortion has killed more than all the people in all the wars of all time. Yes I know its wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_AgesToday it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages[6]. However, most modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.[7][8]
That's crap. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. You're assuming in order to have morality you need religion, which has been disproved so many times it's not even funny. It's common knowledge that religion isn't necessary for humans to co-exist in peace. Quite the contrary, religion caused plenty of death and destruction. That's what you get when you have idealistic humans hell-bent on proving each other wrong.
Fact is, all those people you named up there were psychopaths with big dreams and got themselves into positions of power to reach them. Was it wrong? Sure, in the modern sense of morality yes, they definitely were in the wrong (some would disagree, but that's another topic). Would they have done it if they found God? We don't know, as history again shows that plenty of people have killed in the name of God.
How can you be sure that Atheism is the root of their corruption?
What the Pope said was wrong, plain and simple.
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On September 19 2010 17:16 kammeyer wrote:
i suggest you read a bit more about Darwin, because you're immensely far off. Darwin was in fact a Christian, as well as Einstein as well as Leonardo DaVinci. All of them referred to God as Creator at some duration of their life.
Maybe you need to read a bit more, because Darwin lost his faith in the bible as the word of god and became a self-proclaimed agnostic.
Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Einstein: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
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United States512 Posts
On September 19 2010 17:10 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine. I'm truly sorry you need religion to justify the value of human life. I really don't know what to say. I'm glad you have a God to believe in then... I however, as an Atheist, do not feel that way :/. Atheism in general leans away from that direction. Show nested quote +Yes I know its wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_AgesToday it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages[6]. However, most modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.[7][8] This has absolutely no relevance to the discussion on hand. Ok. The "Early-Middle Ages", and through in the Migration Era and pretty much everything since the fall of Rome (A secular nation). As far as the west is concerned, that 1000 block chunk of time was a time of almost zero social, scientific, or cultural progress. There are of course, a few small exceptions. Not surprisingly, all these exceptions occurred in areas outside of the influence of the Papacy.
I don't disagree the Roman Catholic Church became corrupt and made up a bunch of nonsense not found in scripture. Many ideas Catholicism says are real are not in scripture but made up. I also think their is STILL corrupt as evidenced by the child molestion. But there are still many good Catholics/Priests/Nuns, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
The Earth as center
Pope Infallibility
Saints
Priests forgive sins
Purgatory
Forgiveness after death
Buying forgiveness
Worship of Mary
Hiding Child Molestation/Homosexuality
etc
I can think of more but thats off the top of my head.
The Catholic Church kept the Bible in Latin so NO ONE could read it but the Church and they made up a bunch of stuff. Thats why Protestants, aka Martin Luther made it in German and other languages to be spread. The common people never got to read the Bible and it held them in control of the Church. So yes the Roman Catholic Church did stop information INCLUDING the Bible.
Still those people believed in God even if they were Deist/etc. I would say Steven Hawkings but I'm sure anymore but there is a Christian biochemist who sees the order as proof of God... can't remember his name but he argued with Dawkins.
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On September 19 2010 17:15 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:11 Half wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Holy Bible may have wars, but they don't have any form of ethnic cleansing due to hair/eye color/religion.
Actually it had several.
Ethnic cleansing? No, no it didn't. Show nested quote +
Num 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Show nested quote +
Num 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I'm really not trying to be vindictive against Christians here. Normally in threads where people go around uniformly yelling "ALL RELIGION IS TERRIBAD", I defend the merits of religion. (For instance, thanks to religion, Blitzreig is able to comprehend the value of human life :/) I'm not even asking you refrain from criticizing Atheism. Criticism can only strengthen any system of belief. But if you want to, please don't do so from a base of ignorance kthx.
? Did you decide to copy and paste something from Biblegateway.com or wikipedia? It's not a base of ignorance, it's from a base from going to private school for the past 15 years of my life. There was no form of ethnic cleansing in the Bible, ever. Not even in Sadam and Gomorrah was there ethnic cleansing. You'll have to search harder, Half. because not a single time has the Bible ever done something as historically damaging as what Hitler did to the Jewish culture.
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United States512 Posts
On September 19 2010 17:10 Blix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:01 blitzkrieger wrote:
I hate getting into these arguments because I don't have any sources for anything anymore... but there is no value to human life in atheism at all. Humans are just another animal. If you can profit off the expense of another human thats fine.
Do you realize that this (and one of your previous statements) is actually quite offensive to atheists?
Yes. I find offense in many things everyday all day. If you can show me how this isn't true please tell me. Atheism strips meaning and purpose and value from everything except self preservation and reproduction.
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It's common for everyone to always compare whoever they are against to the Nazi's. This never surprises me anymore- in the western world you always compare your enemy to Hitler or Nazi- its pretty standard by now.
Of course whats going on in the Congo for the last 15 years is many times worse than what happened during the Holocaust- but you have to stick with references that people in the west actually know about.
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On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. I've heard its going down because poor people have more kids and poor people are usually less educated/intelligent. Smart people tend to have less kids and focus on individual pursuits, whether that be business, science, or faith.
Secularization is a sure sign of societal advanced technologically, scientifically and philosophically. Seems almost akin to a 14-year old going through puberty.
On September 19 2010 17:09 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 16:58 SaDGoWu wrote:On September 19 2010 16:35 Dgtl wrote:
It's unfortunate that actual intelligent religious people are represented by this guy. Not all religious people are stupid. Is there such a thing as an intelligent religious person? Intelligence is relative. Anyways to the OP, I don't think you cant expect a religious organization or leader for that matter to hold up once scrutinized. I mean how important is research and evidence when there is faith and doctrine. Here is some hope though if you believe a Stanford Binet IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence; This test clearly shows that despite larger family size and inbreeding, IQ's are going up by 3 points on average per decade. Hopefully that means people will be more self aware and not flock like sheep. In fact SCIENCE was originally (and still) is based on the belief that there is order in the universe from God. God made laws so we must find them..
Are you being serious? There's not one bit of truth to this statement what so ever. Science has historically been held back and restrained for centuries due to various religions. Religion has been one huge obstacle for sciencific progress. Copernicus might have been a religious man, but his books were still being judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy." All thanks to the bible.
In any case you're looking a lot more aggressive about your beliefs than any atheist in this thread.
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EPT
