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On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity.
The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you.
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For the love of god, they're criminals, not Sithlords.. Let em have their D&D. People make mistakes in their life, but does it really have to doom them to absolute 0 lifequality? Society could have taught them differently from the beginning..
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On January 30 2010 23:08 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity. The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you.
The fact it doesn't work doesn't make it less repressive.
0,7 % of the population is in jail in US. In France we are not even at 0,08%. Should be blind not to see the link between the repressivness of american justice and the violence of its society.
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I don't think one of a prison's primary goals should be punishment. Instead, they should work to keep society safe from the prisoners and make the prisoners better members of society. Banning something that encouraged a prisoner to write 96 page creative work is not a good decision.
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Norway28669 Posts
the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought 
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On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought
What do you propose that we do with people who commit criminal acts then?
"Oh you robbed someone at gunpoint? You'll get to talk about it with a nice psychologist."
Of course it's about punishment, there is really no other option. It saddens me when people are leftist, politically correct prudes that is often the case up here.
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On January 30 2010 23:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:08 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity. The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you. The fact it doesn't work doesn't make it less repressive. 0,7 % of the population is in jail in US. In France we are not even at 0,08%. Should be blind not to see the link between the repressivness of american justice and the violence of its society.
trust me its not that the society is violent, many of those people in u.s jails are in for non violent crimes . I heard a story about a guy who got sentence for 5 years who was a a college professor who did not fill out papers "was not aware of the law" for a plant he was growing, because the government wanted to keep tabs because the plant was considered endangered.
If this is called justice, call me frank cause people with manslaughter dont get that much time.
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On January 30 2010 23:34 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought What do you propose that we do with people who commit criminal acts then? "Oh you robbed someone at gunpoint? You'll get to talk about it with a nice psychologist." Of course it's about punishment, there is really no other option. It saddens me when people are leftist, politically correct prudes that is often the case up here.
While sending someone to prison obviously is a punishment, you shouldn't send someone to prison merely for punishing them. There was someone earlier in the thread who wrote about vengeance/justice. I agree with what he/she wrote.
Prison should be about protecting society and making the prisoners better citizens. After all, society often has a big role in making people criminals.
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On January 30 2010 23:34 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 23:08 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity. The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you. The fact it doesn't work doesn't make it less repressive. 0,7 % of the population is in jail in US. In France we are not even at 0,08%. Should be blind not to see the link between the repressivness of american justice and the violence of its society. trust me its not that the society is violent, many of those people in u.s jails are in for non violent crimes
There are 5,6 murders for 100 000 people a year in US and 1,7 in France. Not violent at all, yeah. So 10 times more prisonners, 4 time more murders. That's quite good, dude.
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On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought
Wait, a punishment is not a vengeance. A punishement aim to correct people, to make them better. That's the contrary of a vengeance.
On January 30 2010 23:34 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought What do you propose that we do with people who commit criminal acts then? "Oh you robbed someone at gunpoint? You'll get to talk about it with a nice psychologist." Of course it's about punishment, there is really no other option. It saddens me when people are leftist, politically correct prudes that is often the case up here.
It saddends you when people are leftist? I saddens me when people are right wingers. And then, it makes the discussion really productive hmm? If I start to say what I thing of right wing in general, I get a life ban immediately. So let's not start, ok?
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On January 30 2010 23:23 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I don't think one of a prison's primary goals should be punishment. Instead, they should work to keep society safe from the prisoners and make the prisoners better members of society. Banning something that encouraged a prisoner to write 96 page creative work is not a good decision.
How about the time devoted to writing a relatively useless manuscript could be devoted to charity work or cleaning up bad areas of the city where the prison is located.
You applaud him for being creative. He killed someone. How is he in any way making up his debt to society by writing a book about a card game?
@ Biff The Understudy: This is this shit that annoys me. I am not a hard conservative and I'm against the death penalty but I do not agree with the feel good approach of the left wing. Criminals are not (for the most part) good people that made a mistake. These are people that in many cases have committed atrocious acts against society and only feel remorse because they got caught.
People like this do not deserve sympathy, nor leniency. They deserve to spend years in prison and working their asses off to make up for the damage they did to their family, the families that they affected and society in general.
'If we work really hard and talk about and hug it out he'll turn into a good person.' Fuck that. When the person has made up for the actions he's done 10 fold then he deserves a second chance.
At least have the balls to admit you use the pussy approach. I don't care that you give criminals a slap on the wrist, to be honest. But the fact that you try to delude yourself and others with your psychiatrist bullshit about Freud makes me want to vomit.
Freud believed that males had an innate sexual attraction to their mothers. Freud was also a coke head. Don't know about you but that makes me a little less ready to take his words seriously, and the fact that you put weight behind them makes me think your argument is a huge joke.
l o l
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On January 30 2010 23:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:34 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 23:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 23:08 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity. The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you. The fact it doesn't work doesn't make it less repressive. 0,7 % of the population is in jail in US. In France we are not even at 0,08%. Should be blind not to see the link between the repressivness of american justice and the violence of its society. trust me its not that the society is violent, many of those people in u.s jails are in for non violent crimes There are 5,6 murders for 100 000 people a year in US and 1,7 in France. Not violent at all, yeah. So 10 times more prisonners, 4 time more murders. That's quite good, dude.
Come back to me when your country has 300 million people and happens to be the third largest country in the world.
Size makes logistics a pain in the ass and it's a problem France simply does not have. There was a big trend downward in crime around here until the economy went bad. The true vast majority of our prison population is there for bullshit drug charges.
If there wasn't such a hardcore black market for drugs we'd probably see less murders. I don't like the US justice system that much but the correlation between "repression" and "violence" really isn't there. It is actually very difficult to get sent to life in prison without parole here.
For the record...try dealing with these so called "nice" criminals on a day to day basis. It's not an accident that people in the crappier parts of town have been arrested five to ten freaking times in their lives. Some people that do real crimes just can't be reformed. They were raised a certain way and they have a certain way of thinking. Good luck changing that.
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On January 30 2010 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought Wait, a punishment is not a vengeance. A punishement aim to correct people, to make them better. That's the contrary of a vengeance.
I think being made to work hard to repay what you took away from society is more useful for rehabilitation than getting to chill out on a couch and chat with a psychiatrist for an hour.
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On January 30 2010 23:43 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:23 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I don't think one of a prison's primary goals should be punishment. Instead, they should work to keep society safe from the prisoners and make the prisoners better members of society. Banning something that encouraged a prisoner to write 96 page creative work is not a good decision. How about the time devoted to writing a relatively useless manuscript could be devoted to charity work or cleaning up bad areas of the city where the prison is located. You applaud him for being creative. He killed someone. How is he in any way making up his debt to society by writing a book about a card game? @ Biff The Understudy: This is this shit that annoys me. I am not a hard conservative and I'm against the death penalty but I do not agree with the feel good approach of the left wing. Criminals are not (for the most part) good people that made a mistake. These are people that in many cases have committed atrocious acts against society and only feel remorse because they got caught. People like this do not deserve sympathy, nor leniency. They deserve to spend years in prison and working their asses off to make up for the damage they did to their family, the families that they affected and society in general. 'If we work really hard and talk about and hug it out he'll turn into a good person.' Fuck that. When the person has made up for the actions he's done 10 fold then he deserves a second chance. At least have the balls to admit you use the pussy approach. I don't care that you give criminals a slap on the wrist, to be honest. But the fact that you try to delude yourself and others with your psychiatrist bullshit about Freud makes me want to vomit. Freud believed that males had an innate sexual attraction to their mothers. Freud was also a coke head. Don't know about you but that makes me a little less ready to take his words seriously, and the fact that you put weight behind them makes me think your argument is a huge joke. l o l
You don't know anything about Freud, at all, so I will ignore the last part.
Now answer me. Why is it that there are a massive difference between the black and the white population in jail, proportionaly, in the US? There is only two answers
1- Because black people are poorer, come from harder background, ahve more difficult lives, etc etc, and therefore come to be criminals more often than white people, who generally have much more luck about how and where the were born.
2- Black people are more often bad than white.
Make your conclusions.
I will never be a criminal. I was born in a nice district, had a good education, good loving parents, have been supported financially to do what I liked in my life. That's not the case of everybody. The reason why there are criminals is firstly because some people nobody give a fuck about don't have the chances I had.
And please, when you really don't have any idea about a topic, rather than writing a pile of prejudices, learn a little bit about what you are talking about. Because you can criticize Freud, for many reasons, but that was really bad bad quality argumentation.
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On January 30 2010 23:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:43 Pioneer wrote:On January 30 2010 23:23 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I don't think one of a prison's primary goals should be punishment. Instead, they should work to keep society safe from the prisoners and make the prisoners better members of society. Banning something that encouraged a prisoner to write 96 page creative work is not a good decision. How about the time devoted to writing a relatively useless manuscript could be devoted to charity work or cleaning up bad areas of the city where the prison is located. You applaud him for being creative. He killed someone. How is he in any way making up his debt to society by writing a book about a card game? @ Biff The Understudy: This is this shit that annoys me. I am not a hard conservative and I'm against the death penalty but I do not agree with the feel good approach of the left wing. Criminals are not (for the most part) good people that made a mistake. These are people that in many cases have committed atrocious acts against society and only feel remorse because they got caught. People like this do not deserve sympathy, nor leniency. They deserve to spend years in prison and working their asses off to make up for the damage they did to their family, the families that they affected and society in general. 'If we work really hard and talk about and hug it out he'll turn into a good person.' Fuck that. When the person has made up for the actions he's done 10 fold then he deserves a second chance. At least have the balls to admit you use the pussy approach. I don't care that you give criminals a slap on the wrist, to be honest. But the fact that you try to delude yourself and others with your psychiatrist bullshit about Freud makes me want to vomit. Freud believed that males had an innate sexual attraction to their mothers. Freud was also a coke head. Don't know about you but that makes me a little less ready to take his words seriously, and the fact that you put weight behind them makes me think your argument is a huge joke. l o l You don't know anything about Freud, at all, so I will ignore the last part. Now answer me. Why is it that there are a massive difference between the black and the white population in jail, proportionaly, in the US? There is only two answers 1- Because black people are poorer, come from harder background, ahve more difficult lives, etc etc, and therefore come to be criminals more often than white people, who generally have much more luck about how and where the were born. 2- Black people are more often bad than white. Make your conclusions. I will never be a criminal. I was born in a nice district, had a good education, good loving parents, have been supported financially to do what I liked in my life. That's not the case of everybody. The reason why there are criminals is firstly because some people nobody give a fuck about don't have the chances I had. And please, when you really don't have any idea about a topic, rather than writing a pile of prejudices, learn a little bit about what you are talking about. Because you can criticize Freud, for many reasons, but that was really bad bad quality argumentation.
trust me, being considered a criminal in this country isnt a hard thing to do... some say....
Doing nothing is a good skill toi have
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Prison should be primarily focused on both rehabilitation as well as protection (societies), like drone i'm suprised so many of you are advocating it be primarily for punishment, certainly there needs to be an element of punishment but for me the taking away of your freedom is enough.
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On January 30 2010 23:45 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 23:34 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 23:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 23:08 StarsPride wrote:On January 30 2010 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 30 2010 20:38 Pioneer wrote:
Honestly, it's such a stereotypical European view that everyone should be best friends and pick daisies in the field together and live happily ever after. News flash, the real world doesn't work like that. You have people that get pleasure in abusing children, you have people that get pleasure in forcing themselves upon women. You have people that get pleasure in torturing then killing their fellow man.
Prison isn't a reward. They already get room and board from tax payers why should they be allowed to have fun?
Whenever you take away the rights of another person forcibly you should lose your rights. That's the great difference between Europe and US councerning Justice: for Europeans, prison should punish and correct the criminal. Prison is a punishment. For Americans, justice is a revenge. You did something wrong? We do something wrong to you. Putting someone for the rest of his life in jail or even killing him is not a punishment. It's not hopping that he will understand, that he will pay his debt to seciety. It's a vengeance. Now, your argument is wrong. And I see two reasons for this wrongness: 1- It's an inefficient approach. More repressive a state is, more violent are its citizen. There must be a reason why US is the thousand time more repressive than any European country (iirc, ten times more prisonners than in France proportionaly -that's fucking huuuuuuge), AND also has a higher criminality, murder rate than any European country. 2- Criminals are not just "bad". This right wing approach is silly. That's wrong for two reasons: 1- because people are not "free": that, we know since Freud. People are not equal. Some of us will never be criminals, and some will certainly be because of the past they had. And secondly because it's the society which creates criminals. And obviously, in such a nihilistic, individualistic, unfair society like the American one, you have a lot of criminals amongst people nobody give a fuck about. People are not good or bad. They have different histories, and different context. When you get a society full of crimes, violences, and murders, it's aa bit too easy to say that some people are just bad and you should get rid of them. Question your society, and its obscenity. The american justice system is a perfect example of a very flawed system. If you want my to quote my sources ill simply point and laugh at you. The fact it doesn't work doesn't make it less repressive. 0,7 % of the population is in jail in US. In France we are not even at 0,08%. Should be blind not to see the link between the repressivness of american justice and the violence of its society. trust me its not that the society is violent, many of those people in u.s jails are in for non violent crimes There are 5,6 murders for 100 000 people a year in US and 1,7 in France. Not violent at all, yeah. So 10 times more prisonners, 4 time more murders. That's quite good, dude. Come back to me when your country has 300 million people and happens to be the third largest country in the world. Size makes logistics a pain in the ass and it's a problem France simply does not have. There was a big trend downward in crime around here until the economy went bad. The true vast majority of our prison population is there for bullshit drug charges. If there wasn't such a hardcore black market for drugs we'd probably see less murders. I don't like the US justice system that much but the correlation between "repression" and "violence" really isn't there. It is actually very difficult to get sent to life in prison without parole here. For the record...try dealing with these so called "nice" criminals on a day to day basis. It's not an accident that people in the crappier parts of town have been arrested five to ten freaking times in their lives. Some people that do real crimes just can't be reformed. They were raised a certain way and they have a certain way of thinking. Good luck changing that.
You ahve two solutions to change that:
1- You put them all in jail. You get massively repressive policies. And you kill the one you think won't get better. That's what is happening in US.
2- You try to think what makes criminals in the first place. You see, there are a lot more criminals who were born in Harlem than in Manhattan. Maybe the fact that a huge part of the population lives in ghettos and don't have much more hope than maybe working in Mc Donald one day doesn't help.
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On January 30 2010 23:54 XeliN wrote:
Prison should be primarily focused on both rehabilitation as well as protection (societies), like drone i'm suprised so many of you are advocating it be primarily for punishment, certainly there needs to be an element of punishment but for me the taking away of your freedom is enough.
Because you haven't read the argumentation of what a punishement and why it is not a vengeance is that I posted twice in this thread already.
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On January 30 2010 23:43 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:23 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I don't think one of a prison's primary goals should be punishment. Instead, they should work to keep society safe from the prisoners and make the prisoners better members of society. Banning something that encouraged a prisoner to write 96 page creative work is not a good decision. How about the time devoted to writing a relatively useless manuscript could be devoted to charity work or cleaning up bad areas of the city where the prison is located. You applaud him for being creative. He killed someone. How is he in any way making up his debt to society by writing a book about a card game? @ Biff The Understudy: This is this shit that annoys me. I am not a hard conservative and I'm against the death penalty but I do not agree with the feel good approach of the left wing. Criminals are not (for the most part) good people that made a mistake. These are people that in many cases have committed atrocious acts against society and only feel remorse because they got caught. People like this do not deserve sympathy, nor leniency. They deserve to spend years in prison and working their asses off to make up for the damage they did to their family, the families that they affected and society in general. 'If we work really hard and talk about and hug it out he'll turn into a good person.' Fuck that. When the person has made up for the actions he's done 10 fold then he deserves a second chance. At least have the balls to admit you use the pussy approach. I don't care that you give criminals a slap on the wrist, to be honest. But the fact that you try to delude yourself and others with your psychiatrist bullshit about Freud makes me want to vomit. Freud believed that males had an innate sexual attraction to their mothers. Freud was also a coke head. Don't know about you but that makes me a little less ready to take his words seriously, and the fact that you put weight behind them makes me think your argument is a huge joke. l o l
I am not sure at all, but I can imagine that he did all this in his "free time". I would rather have him do something creative and benefitting to both himself and his cell mates than doing something that's not.
Honestly, I really don't believe that anyone "deserves" anything. What happened in the past cannot be reversed. While previous actions definitely show that one might do the same thing again (hence why putting criminals in prison is a good thing), it is useless to inflict punishment only for the reason of punishing. It doesn't help anyone.
I can relate to that he should make up for his actions, but cleaning up areas and stuff seems pretty unrealistic to me. Would you want prisoners cleaning up stuff in public? It would suck both for the common man and the prisoners themselves.
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On January 30 2010 23:34 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2010 23:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:the idea that prison is supposed to be about punishment is incredibly dehumanizing. it seriously saddens me that it's such a prevalent thought What do you propose that we do with people who commit criminal acts then? "Oh you robbed someone at gunpoint? You'll get to talk about it with a nice psychologist." Of course it's about punishment, there is really no other option. It saddens me when people are leftist, politically correct prudes that is often the case up here.
What do you mean there is no other option? Removing them from society can work just fine (which is what prison does - I don't think anyone is suggesting we turn prisons into holiday camps, but saying we should further deprive prisoners of pleasure is obviously idiotic) and as so many criminals are, one day, going to be released, it seems rather silly not to try and teach them more constructive ways to behave in society.
I'm not sure how you even extracted your meaning from Drone's post.
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EPT
