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On May 25 2016 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:Stream the past week have made that pretty clear yes. The problem for some however is the business model CA has these days.
I'm not excusing Sega or CA at all, but have you looked at the market for strategy games recently, in particular ones with complex mechanics like the Total War series? It's really hard to fault them when the market for strategy games in particular is so weak.
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On May 25 2016 07:40 Manit0u wrote:
Bought it just because you can't buy tabletop Warhammer any more. Sad days are upon us.
That shit was always way too expensive.
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United States43804 Posts
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On May 25 2016 07:40 Manit0u wrote:
Bought it just because you can't buy tabletop Warhammer any more. Sad days are upon us.
i think u can still buy it? it's just that they revamped fantasy warhammer or something, from what i heard
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On May 25 2016 14:34 KwarK wrote:
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas.
Yeah you can buy the models, but they buried warhammer fantasy, and turned it into Age of Sigmar, a game with a 4 page pamphlet as an excuse of manual, and aesthethics more similar to 40k than fantasy.
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First game I really enjoy since medieval 2. I bought rome2 and played it for like half an hour since it was that terrible.
For this game, I can just accept it's "something else" since it's in the warhammer universe.
I can already see some flaws (like the AI, strange settlement management) but the game still is so much fun with the new battle-elements (magic, beasts, flying units, etc.), amazing landscapes and cities (on the battle map) and I also like the new RPG aspect.
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On May 25 2016 12:48 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On May 25 2016 06:14 Narw wrote:
Well, uhm, this game is actually good. Stream the past week have made that pretty clear yes. The problem for some however is the business model CA has these days. I'm not excusing Sega or CA at all, but have you looked at the market for strategy games recently, in particular ones with complex mechanics like the Total War series? It's really hard to fault them when the market for strategy games in particular is so weak.
I'm sorry but the market being weak is no excuse to charge 135 euro's for Rome 2 and all its content.
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On May 25 2016 19:35 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 12:48 superstartran wrote:On May 25 2016 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On May 25 2016 06:14 Narw wrote:
Well, uhm, this game is actually good. Stream the past week have made that pretty clear yes. The problem for some however is the business model CA has these days. I'm not excusing Sega or CA at all, but have you looked at the market for strategy games recently, in particular ones with complex mechanics like the Total War series? It's really hard to fault them when the market for strategy games in particular is so weak. I'm sorry but the market being weak is no excuse to charge 135 euro's for Rome 2 and all its content.
Considering that the market sucks so badly for strategy games currently? Yeah. Welcome to the world where you can't have everything you want. I agree, I think Rome 2 was unfairly priced, but it got priced that way for a reason. CA is one of the few companies that still puts a ton of effort and money into making solid strategy games. We don't have to agree with their pricing model, but they price their games this way for a reason. It's certainly not because they want to, but it's because they feel like they have to in order to recuperate their losses.
Just look at Alien Isolation, another game created by Creative Assembly. Critically acclaimed, and very well designed and well reviewed. Look at the sales though. It completely sucks ass. And it's not like Alien Isolation was some small time game either, it was pretty well previewed and well known prior to release. Lots of companies are forced to take paths that they may not necessarily want to take because of examples like Alien Isolation. You can make a great game, it can become reviewed well, etc. but it doesn't mean jack shit if it doesn't sell well.
And before you go off about how CA is now in Sega's pocket and how they are money grubbing people, do realize that CA is one of the few companies that still puts massive efforts into the strategy genre, still tries to listen to their community, and one of the few companies that doesn't just abandons their game completely post launch. Rome 2 for example is a sort of playable game currently and that's because CA put the effort into patching their game. They could have said fuck it and just dropped it as is and taken the money and ran.
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On May 25 2016 19:09 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 14:34 KwarK wrote:
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas. Yeah you can buy the models, but they buried warhammer fantasy, and turned it into Age of Sigmar, a game with a 4 page pamphlet as an excuse of manual, and aesthethics more similar to 40k than fantasy.
From my understanding they are revamping the entire world, rather than fully ending it. People still buy that game. I think they want to change the names of the races to A: copy write them, and B: end use High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Chaos Dwarfs and so on. The more cynical part of me thinks its just for marketing, but I do understand that having flavors of elves is not great for marketing them. But have no doubt, they will be releasing new models and armies.
Maybe then can end the stupid pointy hats for high elves.
Edit: Rome 2 may have been a disaster, but CA has a good track record up to that. And they are in it to make money by selling games. Complaining about the existence of DLC is sort of like complaining about a flavor of beer you don’t like being on a shelf.
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enemy agent assassination success chance is total bullshit
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 25 2016 19:09 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 14:34 KwarK wrote:
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas. Yeah you can buy the models, but they buried warhammer fantasy, and turned it into Age of Sigmar, a game with a 4 page pamphlet as an excuse of manual, and aesthethics more similar to 40k than fantasy.
I don't play but I love the warhammer universe (both 40k and old world), and when I first saw AoS at release last year I thought it was a horrible joke... But they seem to have actually started putting out a lot of quality content for it now, along with a bunch of other positive changes which is kind of cool to see.
The stormhost or whatever the 'fantasy space marines' are called, are still an embarrassment tho. Pretty strongly prefer the Old World setting, but at least they seem to be trying.
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On May 25 2016 20:22 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 19:35 Gorsameth wrote:On May 25 2016 12:48 superstartran wrote:On May 25 2016 06:26 Gorsameth wrote:On May 25 2016 06:14 Narw wrote:
Well, uhm, this game is actually good. Stream the past week have made that pretty clear yes. The problem for some however is the business model CA has these days. I'm not excusing Sega or CA at all, but have you looked at the market for strategy games recently, in particular ones with complex mechanics like the Total War series? It's really hard to fault them when the market for strategy games in particular is so weak. I'm sorry but the market being weak is no excuse to charge 135 euro's for Rome 2 and all its content. Considering that the market sucks so badly for strategy games currently? Yeah. Welcome to the world where you can't have everything you want. I agree, I think Rome 2 was unfairly priced, but it got priced that way for a reason. CA is one of the few companies that still puts a ton of effort and money into making solid strategy games. We don't have to agree with their pricing model, but they price their games this way for a reason. It's certainly not because they want to, but it's because they feel like they have to in order to recuperate their losses. Just look at Alien Isolation, another game created by Creative Assembly. Critically acclaimed, and very well designed and well reviewed. Look at the sales though. It completely sucks ass. And it's not like Alien Isolation was some small time game either, it was pretty well previewed and well known prior to release. Lots of companies are forced to take paths that they may not necessarily want to take because of examples like Alien Isolation. You can make a great game, it can become reviewed well, etc. but it doesn't mean jack shit if it doesn't sell well. And before you go off about how CA is now in Sega's pocket and how they are money grubbing people, do realize that CA is one of the few companies that still puts massive efforts into the strategy genre, still tries to listen to their community, and one of the few companies that doesn't just abandons their game completely post launch. Rome 2 for example is a sort of playable game currently and that's because CA put the effort into patching their game. They could have said fuck it and just dropped it as is and taken the money and ran.
There are a lot of good 4x games released in the past few years, both fantasy and in space. Civ series is still alive. Many of the most popular mobile games are in strategy. X-Com has a good remake franchise. The genre is certainly not dead.
CA's costs are high because they push the graphical envelope and that's not what the strategy genre is about. There are plenty of articles released about how the cost of developing titles, mostly console, have ballooned because of the cost of creating modern graphics. Game development costs are mostly because of graphics nowadays. It has nothing to do with gameplay.
Rome 1, Medieval 2, Empire, Shogun 2, Rome 2, Warhammer - This is CA's 6th base game since they made the move to 3d. Every game, they make an effort to improve the graphics the most. It's their business model to focus their marketing on graphics and that's where we can certainly fault them for it. This isn't an FPS franchise.
Empire was a disaster. Rome 2 was a disaster. They used to have a good track record. It's not good anymore if every other game recently is a disaster. This might end up being a good game when all is said and done, like Shogun 2, but the next game is likely to be another disaster. I guess they are trying every other game now.
And it's not the DLC that's the problem. It's how they do DLC. Civ has DLC. X-Com has DLC. Hearthstone has DLC. Yet I did not have the problem with those other games that I do with CA's DLC practices. There is just something overly cynical with the way CA does DLC, like they are an F2P mobile game. Hearthstone is F2P and does DLC in a less cynical way.
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I find the UI very unintuitive but very well-designed, if that makes sense. Like I'll search for how to do something for 5 minutes and finally find it and say, oh that's useful.I guess it's the nature of the game to have to have a lot of inobtrusive buttons that aren't particularly obvious. I especially like how all of the settlements/buildings can be (mostly) seen on one pane.
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On May 26 2016 00:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 19:09 Godwrath wrote:On May 25 2016 14:34 KwarK wrote:
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas. Yeah you can buy the models, but they buried warhammer fantasy, and turned it into Age of Sigmar, a game with a 4 page pamphlet as an excuse of manual, and aesthethics more similar to 40k than fantasy. I don't play but I love the warhammer universe (both 40k and old world), and when I first saw AoS at release last year I thought it was a horrible joke... But they seem to have actually started putting out a lot of quality content for it now, along with a bunch of other positive changes which is kind of cool to see. The stormhost or whatever the 'fantasy space marines' are called, are still an embarrassment tho. Pretty strongly prefer the Old World setting, but at least they seem to be trying.
The additions are mostly campaigns, which is perfectly fine for the people who is left playing the game and i am happy for them, but for a good chunk of the people who left the game, the reason is not only the fluff loss (which well, it's quite huge), but the gameplay and completely lack of support from the game rules for pick up games and in consequence, tournaments. The game is so simple, that there are no points. You just bring the models you want to the table. Imagine if on a sc2 fight you could just bring whatever you wanted to X fight. No limits. The game is completely broken if you try the slightlest to optimize your army.
You would need to houserule it really hard to be able to get a somewhat balanced experience for the players. People tried at the beginning, but eventually most of them gave up to other game systems (ie kings of war) or just rehased 8th warhammer edition. Most of the tournament's circuits don't play AoS anymore, and i had always been a tournament player.
On May 25 2016 23:12 LaNague wrote:
enemy agent assassination success chance is total bullshit
Indeed, getting 28% when i am 4 levels above ...But one of the abilities increases assassinations chances quite a bit.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 26 2016 01:46 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 00:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 25 2016 19:09 Godwrath wrote:On May 25 2016 14:34 KwarK wrote:
You can still buy it. I bought a squad of miniatures when I was back in the UK over Christmas. Yeah you can buy the models, but they buried warhammer fantasy, and turned it into Age of Sigmar, a game with a 4 page pamphlet as an excuse of manual, and aesthethics more similar to 40k than fantasy. I don't play but I love the warhammer universe (both 40k and old world), and when I first saw AoS at release last year I thought it was a horrible joke... But they seem to have actually started putting out a lot of quality content for it now, along with a bunch of other positive changes which is kind of cool to see. The stormhost or whatever the 'fantasy space marines' are called, are still an embarrassment tho. Pretty strongly prefer the Old World setting, but at least they seem to be trying. The additions are mostly campaigns, which is perfectly fine for the people who is left playing the game and i am happy for them, but for a good chunk of the people who left the game, the reason is not only the fluff loss (which well, it's quite huge), but the gameplay and completely lack of support from the game rules for pick up games and in consequence, tournaments. The game is so simple, that there are no points. You just bring the models you want to the table. Imagine if on a sc2 fight you could just bring whatever you wanted to X fight. No limits. The game is completely broken if you try the slightlest to optimize your army. You would need to houserule it really hard to be able to get a somewhat balanced experience for the players. People tried at the beginning, but eventually most of them gave up to other game systems (ie kings of war) or just rehased 8th warhammer edition. Most of the tournament's circuits don't play AoS anymore, and i had always been a tournament player. Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 23:12 LaNague wrote:
enemy agent assassination success chance is total bullshit Indeed, getting 28% when i am 4 levels above ...But one of the abilities increases assassinations chances quite a bit.
They are coming out with points for it tho (from what I heard, they actually had some input from the community people organizing events with points etc already), which is kind of a shocking turn of events given their general combination of being blind, deaf and mute when it comes to any and all customer feedback 
I don't know, I'm slightly hopeful their change of leadership will mark a turn-around in how they approach their business. Reviving blood bowl (and NOT setting it in AoS) is pretty awesome, return of their Specialist Games division... I believe even price decreases on recent supplements?
Anyhow, as I said, when they announced the 'no points' shit along with pictures of the fantasy marines I pretty much tuned out any and all warhammer news for a good year :D It literally has no impact on me since I don't play (not really any time to), but it still made me sad.
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Can you give a link ? No doubting your word, just i had grown very cynical about that. People were saying the same when AoS was released.
The problem with the leadership is that the business is completely handled against growth, so i don't really trust GW ever changing. What you are saying is how i thought GW would head 5 years ago.
The price releases i had seen are nice, but are only on starter armies which is nice tho, but 60 euros for a 3 crisis suit (model units) plastic kit is outright crazy (something that costs a 10% of your army or less). With that money i have a 10 model infinity army ready for pick up games or even tournaments if i don't mind not having a second list.
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My family's business did injection molding for a little while and it is super expensive. Some of the dyes(molds) can run 50K a pop and they were just for simple shapes or forms to make sneakers. I don't know what the mold for a single sprew of war hammer figs, but it has to be several magnitudes more than the ones were were using. And they need several of those per model set.
Also, metal injection molding is cheaper than plastic due to the materials and costs. It also generally yields less detailed models and ads lots of shipping costs to the weight. Which is why a lot of companies moved away from it. With Games workshop's market size, I am not surprised that 3 crisis suits costs $60.
If you look at plastic model kits, they cost about the same.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kotobukiya-Frame-Plastic-Model-Kagutsuchi/dp/B007NSQDTO
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United States43804 Posts
Models that don't come with the Games Workshop logo on them are far, far cheaper. I suspect that they're milking their brand for as long as they can while they prepare for the day 3D printing takes over and they're forced to sell patented design runs rather than physical models.
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I am not going to say that they don’t a lot and they have a serious mark up due to the IP and popularity of the game. But the number of models created has nothing to do with the cost of production. It all about the molds and production line. I played war machine too and some of their more impressive warcasters were around $18-20 for a single model, which was in line with 40K. Thing cost more if you are only going to buy one.
On May 26 2016 02:49 KwarK wrote:
Models that don't come with the Games Workshop logo on them are far, far cheaper. I suspect that they're milking their brand for as long as they can while they prepare for the day 3D printing takes over and they're forced to sell patented design runs rather than physical models.
That is totally a thing and they design their armies to make sure you have to buy a lot of models. It’s a hobby that costs to much. But I played Flames of War and dropped the exact same amount of money on tiny Russian troopers from WW2 and low detail tanks.
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EPT
