EPTNBA Offseason 2012 - Page 37
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:00 Holcan wrote: bruce bowen....how is having the best wing defender not having an elite level talent?? Would he be in the top 5 SFs you'd want, or even top 10 that year? edit: Also he was he really even the best wing defender? Wouldn't that have been Ron Artest? | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:31 Holcan wrote: they both made all defensive second team that year, bowen went on to win the chip after defending kobe, and ron artest lost in the first round vs the celtics, ill give the nod to bowen. bowen was also put on all defensive first teams for the four years following, I would consider it to be his coming out party. That first sentence is entirely irrelevant. Bowen was a great defender, no doubt, but a liability on offense and at best a barely top 10 SF. He was a great role player, not a top tier player at his position. edit: You know what, great role player is probably a disservice to how good he was defensively, but I still wouldn't consider him a top wing player if he can't defend AND score. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
It's kind of circular logic. There are only 5 positions in basketball, so you better have some good players at several positions. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
And Lebron is PG. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:42 TwoToneTerran wrote: That first sentence is entirely irrelevant. Bowen was a great defender, no doubt, but a liability on offense and at best a barely top 10 SF. He was a great role player, not a top tier player at his position. edit: You know what, great role player is probably a disservice to how good he was defensively, but I still wouldn't consider him a top wing player if he can't defend AND score. he shot 40+% from threes, and had jackson putting up 13 pts beside him and manu putting up 10 ppg. so let's see, they had an elite wing defender, in bowen, a good defender in jackson, and a fine defender in ginobili, and 38/17/8 per game stat line from their combined wings. my first sentence isn't irrelevant. one player slowed down a prime kobe, the other lost to a prime pierce, its safe to say that bowen was a better defender that year, especially being a low ppg player and still getting all defensive first team nods the following years, ron artest has been all defensive first team twice, although malice at the palace probably had influence on that. MWP is/was a solid wing defender, bowen was one of the best of all time. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:58 Jerubaal wrote: Yeah, Kobe's a wing and KD is a shooting guard. And Lebron is PG. wings are players who play on the wings, so sg and small forwards, don't know why you are being a dick. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 12 2012 19:06 Holcan wrote: he shot 40+% from threes, and had jackson putting up 13 pts beside him and manu putting up 10 ppg. so let's see, they had an elite wing defender, in bowen, a good defender in jackson, and a fine defender in ginobili, and 38/17/8 per game stat line from their combined wings. Yes, looks like exactly what I said! A lot of good players in a rotation on the wings with no top players among them. my first sentence isn't irrelevant. one player slowed down a prime kobe, the other lost to a prime pierce, This is like saying Lebron beat Durant when it's the Heat beat the Thunder. Bowen didn't beat Kobe, Kobe had some damn good games in that series. The Spurs beat the Lakers. That doesn't make Bowen automatically better at anything than anyone. its safe to say that bowen was a better defender that year, especially being a low ppg player and still getting all defensive first team nods the following years, ron artest has been all defensive first team twice, although malice at the palace probably had influence on that. MWP is/was a solid wing defender, bowen was one of the best of all time. Eh, fair enough, but it still evades my point. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
i somehow missed the edit button twice in a row, all of my arguments are invalid. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On July 12 2012 19:07 Holcan wrote: wings are players who play on the wings, so sg and small forwards, don't know why you are being a dick. He's a big shooting guard, but nothing about him screams wing to me. It may just be semantics, but if that's the case then I'm not sure what the argument is. That having big shooting guards wins championships? He primarily acts like a pure shooting guard, especially in the first 3 championships, so I wouldn't classify him as a wing. Largely pointless discussion though. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 12 2012 19:16 Jerubaal wrote: He's a big shooting guard, but nothing about him screams wing to me. It may just be semantics, but if that's the case then I'm not sure what the argument is. That having big shooting guards wins championships? He primarily acts like a pure shooting guard, especially in the first 3 championships, so I wouldn't classify him as a wing. Largely pointless discussion though. The argument was about seeing how many championship teams in the past decade or so lacked top tier wing players, and whether or not Bowen qualified as one based purely on his elite defensive skills. There's no position called a wing, I don't know why you're talking like there is one. Wings are the part of the arc that are from the baseline to the top of the key. It's where traditional shooting guards and small forwards operate. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
Let's just be friends, ok. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On July 12 2012 19:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yes, looks like exactly what I said! A lot of good players in a rotation on the wings with no top players among them. This is like saying Lebron beat Durant when it's the Heat beat the Thunder. Bowen didn't beat Kobe, Kobe had some damn good games in that series. The Spurs beat the Lakers. That doesn't make Bowen automatically better at anything than anyone. Eh, fair enough, but it still evades my point. no you said there was no elite players, but they did have an elite defender, as well as fantastic production from manu and jackson, its not like their wings were weak by any means, they contained elite level talent, perhaps not in one form like kobe or lebron, but certainly with the sum of their parts. that was also manus rookie season, so it could be argued that he was a legit elite talent, at least offensively. and stephen jackson was in his prime position of being the third option, so although it may not be his beat year statistically, it was the season that started his career of being improperly casted as a #1 offensive option. also I never said bowen beat kobe, or pierce shit all over artest, I only pointed out that more accomplishments means you probably did a better job. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
ETA: It's also why people thinking the 92 Dream Team would steam roll the 2008/2012 teams makes me cringe. In terms of pure basketball talent you have Lebron/Wade/Kobe who are better than Magic and Bird with MJ being the only guy out of the PGs/Wings that can be stated to be better than them without question. You've also got Chris Paul who is better than Isaiah Thomas(I know he wasn't there, but for comparison's sake) and Stockton which bumps the competion to a whole new level. Add in that any "classic" formation from the 92 team with Jordan and Magic on the court at the same time means Bird is the only floor spacer. They also have a very weak bench compared to the 08 team. It really does come down to their big guys taking advantage of 08/12's lack of big interior defenders. If no handchecking is allowed then 92 is serious, serious trouble. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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