EPT
NBA Offseason 2012 - Page 39
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On July 12 2012 22:56 thuracine wrote: I see a lot of teams trying to play zone and slow the Heat down. With a full season this year teams are going to be better prepared facing them unlike last year when it was a lot of man. Except the Heat crush zone defense, especially if they just stick Lebron in the post. | ||
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seanisgrand
United States1039 Posts
Probably hurt his knee while flopping. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
I watched the Dream Team documentary and Magic and Bird were not anywhere near their primes or in the type of shape to compete with the type of athleticism and strength the 2008 or 2012 teams have. Magic was invited as a last hurrah because his career was basically over, and Bird's back was so bad he almost abstained. Arguably, neither of them can stay on the floor because they wouldn't be able to guard anyone on the 2008/12 squads. Take out those two, and you're left with Stockton as the only PG on the roster, and Mullin, Jordan, Pippen and Drexler on the wings. Mullin was the only one of the latter who was considered a great shooter and consistent 3pt threat, while Jordan shot .352, Pippen shot .237, and Drexler shot .337 from behind the arc. That doesn't paint a pretty picture to me for them on offense. On offense, I'm not sure even Stockton would be able to do much to get the 1992 team good looks without anyone to space the floor and prevent the 2008/12 teams from just packing the paint. That's not even considering what happens when Stockton has to sit, because you'd be left with either Magic who would be outclassed physically in every way against everyone on the 2008/12 rosters or Pippen as a pointforward, neither of whom was a good shooter and would further hurt their spacing. If they allow the 2008/12 teams to just pack the paint, the strength and athleticism advantage would shut the 1992 roster down. We could theorize that the best roster the 1992 roster could put out offensively would be something like Stockton (only healthy PG and one of two 3pt shooting threats), Jordan, Mullin (only shooter), Barkley (advantage over Malone b/c of athleticism), and Robinson (same as Barkley). Stockton: CP3 or Deron would be able to guard him effectively with advantage in speed and athleticism (and size for Deron). Jordan: Would face either Lebron, Kobe, Iguodala or Wade, each of whom would arguably be stronger and more athletic than any defender he ever had to face in his career. Mullin: Would have a hard time getting open with the speed and athleticism of any of the wing defenders the 08/12 teams could throw at him. Barkeley: Would have Lebron or Melo, who he would not have a size/strength or athleticism advantage against, or Bosh, who he would have a height disadvantage against with no appreciable advantage, if any, in speed or athleticism. Robinson: For 2008, D12 would likely be able to guard him effectively as Robinson's only advantage would be in height. I don't see Robinson having enough of a strength advantage to back D12 down, and his height would be negated by Howard's incredible hops. For 2012, Chandler would draw this assignment, and you'd just be trading strength for additional height/length. Beyond the individual matchups, the 2008/12 teams would utilize modern defensive schemes that the 1992 teams never had to face. There has been plenty of analysis on the significant improvement in modern defenses from 1992 to 2008, both in sophistication and execution. The overall speed and athleticism advantage the 2008/12 rosters would only make it worse, and I predict it'd be something similar to what we saw OKC did to the Spurs. The Spurs had one of the most fundamentally sound offenses in the league and arguably the best ball movement and spacing we've seen from any team ever, but OKC was able to effectively shut it down with their athleticism and speed alone. The discrepancy would be smaller in the 1992 vs 2008/12 matchups, but it'd still be there and make life miserable for the 1992 team on offense. The best shot the 1992 team would have would be to post players up with Jordan or their bigs, but the 2008/12 teams would be able to double the post effectively due to the generally poor perimeter shooting on the 1992 squad and have the speed/athleticism to close out and rotate on shooters once the ball was passed out. On defense, I see the 1992 struggling big time. The type of defense they were playing back then was a joke compared to what was used in 2008 and now in 2012. Both the 2008 and 2012 squads have elite ball handlers who would be able to get into the paint over and over again by exploiting matchups. No one on the 1992 roster stays in front of CP3, and the players guarding Durant or Lebron would either have significant height disadvantages or be unable to stay in front of them. That's not even including Kobe, Melo or Bosh, who each have the first step and ball-handling to blow by their man as well. Add in the fact that the 2008/12 rosters would feature 4 3pt threats on the floor at almost all times (particularly at international 3pt range), and the 1992 team would be completely stretched out and would not be able to pack the paint. So basically, the defensive problems for the 1992 team would come down to the fact that the 2008/12 squads would have 4-5 3pt threats on the floor at all times, and would feature at least 3-4 guys capable of blowing by a slower defender and finishing in the paint. That's a big deal because the 1992 team would struggle big time anytime they had Mullin, Magic or Bird on the floor, and wouldn't be able to play two of their bigs at the same time (i.e. Robinson, Ewing, Malone) anytime the 2008/12 teams played Lebron, Durant or Melo at PF. The 1992 team would be at a general disadvantage because they'd be forced to pick their poison. A team that's fast and athletic enough to guard the 2008/12 teams would leave out their perimeter threats and only allow for one true big on the floor at a time, which would hurt them badly on offense. A team that could potentially score effectively against the 2008/12 team would necessarily have to either include Mullin or a true big at PF to exploit a size advantage, both of which would leave a significant mismatch on defense. Bottom line is that the 1992 team had too few shooters and not enough athleticism. If we add in the fact that the 2008/12 teams are deeper and can utilize a constant rotation to maintain the incredible pace that they used in 2008, then there's no way the 1992 team is able to keep up with them on either end of the floor. 2008/12 would also arguably have 3 of the 4 best players on either team (Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Wade/Durant). | ||
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tiffany
3664 Posts
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trancey
United States430 Posts
In 1992, Jordan was in his prime and a physical freak. Almost everyday, he would play 36 holes of golf, practice basketball for 4 hours, play cards with Magic and Barkley until 5am, and tour the sights while with the Dream Team... They rarely saw him sleep. Despite Lebron having a physical advantage over anyone you put him on, I doubt anyone on the 2008 or 2012 squad could even phase him. He would still drop 30 point/game on any squad, as he completely outplayed Magic's scrimmage team in their practices (of all hall-of-famers). Wade and Kobe are not better than Jordan nor could even think of out-playing him in his prime. Despite Magic and Bird being 33-34 on the '92 Dream Team, they were still unguardable. Magic is 6'9'' with handles, eyes behind his head, and an uncanny ability to pass the ball like no one else has brought to the game. --- I grew up an LA Laker fan and Kobe has been one of my favorite players to watch, I even own 25 of his Rookie cards, but it's undeniable that he is a sub-par player to Jordan. He shoots 10% worse from the field (43% to 51%+ of Jordan) and was statistically was 1-2 points worse in each category than Jordan. He also has smaller hands than Jordan. The 1992 Dream Team also featured a College player named Christian Laettner, probably because they needed another white guy on the team, when the runner-up College player to the squad was a guy named Shaquille O'neal (about to enter a Rookie season where he would challenge Jordan's Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals). Let's compare the starting line-ups (main back-up is listed in parenthesis): 1992 C: David Robinson (Patrick Ewing) PF: Charles Barkley (Karl Malone, both split time starting but Barkley led the team in scoring and FG%) SF: Larry Bird (Scottie Pippen, both split time starting but Pippen saw more minutes as Bird would retire from basketball after the Olympics.) SG: Michael Jordan (Clyde Drexler) PG: Magic Johnson (John Stockton was the backup but played very few minutes, much like Jason Kidd on the 2008 team.) 2008 C: Dwight Howard (Chris Bosh) PF: Carmelo Anthony (Carlos Boozer) SF: Lebron James (Tayshaun Prince) SG: Kobe Bryant (Dwayne Wade would lead the team in Scoring and FG% though from the bench) PG: Chris Paul (Deron Williams, Jason Kidd started but played the least minutes on the team) 2012 --- this is the starting lineup and back ups that I would prefer to use. C: Tyson Chandler (Kevin Love) PF: Lebron James (Blake Griffin) SF: Kevin Durant (Carmelo Anthony) SG: Kobe Bryant (Russel Westbrook) PG: Chris Paul (Deron Williams) The 2012 Dream Team would probably stack up better against the 1992 team as Durant, Lebron, and Blake Griffin have matured from the 2008 team. Durant and Lebron would definitely cause the most match-up issues, but I can see Pippen and Jordan shutting down Durant with Magic dominating CP3 due to his size. Lebron is the only factor that can't be predicted, he will probably split minutes between PF and SF, but I don't think he'll be able to push around Karl Malone or Barkley. He might match-up well vs. Pippen and Bird, but it would be the ONLY matchup where the 1992 team doesn't have the advantage. Also, 1992 Dream Team - 11 HOF (could have been 12 with Shaq instead of Laettner). 2008 - 6-8 players are guaranteed first ballot HOF. 2012 - 6-7 players on this squad will probably make the HOF based off their current achievements and potential. Honestly, I don't think there is a comparison... Also, without the 1992 Dream Team, the league and its players would not be the same. Without Jordan, there's no Kobe/Wade/Lebron. Without Magic, there's no Lebron/CP3. Without Bird, white guys would have been scared of the NBA and Basketball. This team created International Hype and influenced a new generation of players from all over the world to play BBall. /end rant | ||
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trancey
United States430 Posts
I think you're incorrect using comparisons using Stockton, Mullen, and Barkley. At this time, Barkley was an athletic freak that people thought was a 6'9'' - 6'10'' PF, where in reality, he was only 6'4''. Barkley is easily a better player in his prime than Bosh, Melo, or Griffin is at this time. Stockton played limited minutes and played in only 6 out of 16 games total or something like that. Mullen was also seldom used. Pippen was also an athletic freak at this time, leading the league in Steals and was 2-3 years away from being the guy without Jordan leading his team in every statistical category (literally, every single category). There is no doubt in my mind if you saw footage of this Pippen, you wouldn't doubt he could guard Durant or even Lebron. He was putting up Lebron-like numbers. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
edit: Griffin injury = LA weather goes from scorching 98F to humid and gloomy 80F with possible rain tom T.T | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14894 Posts
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:17 trancey wrote: @ some of the comments about the 1992 dream team --- have you watched the recent documentary by NBA TV and ESPN on the 1992 Dream Team? In 1992, Jordan was in his prime and a physical freak. Almost everyday, he would play 36 holes of golf, practice basketball for 4 hours, play cards with Magic and Barkley until 5am, and tour the sights while with the Dream Team... They rarely saw him sleep. Despite Lebron having a physical advantage over anyone you put him on, I doubt anyone on the 2008 or 2012 squad could even phase him. He would still drop 30 point/game on any squad, as he completely outplayed Magic's scrimmage team in their practices (of all hall-of-famers). Wade and Kobe are not better than Jordan nor could even think of out-playing him in his prime. Despite Magic and Bird being 33-34 on the '92 Dream Team, they were still unguardable. Magic is 6'9'' with handles, eyes behind his head, and an uncanny ability to pass the ball like no one else has brought to the game. Saw it from beginning to end. Jordan was incredible at that point in his career, and I don't think anyone is going to dispute that he would be the best player on the court in any matchup between Olympic teams. However, even he isn't enough to beat the 2008/12 teams single-handedly. He would be facing a more sophisticated defense, stronger, faster and more athletic defenders, and certainly be double-teamed often. It's not as simple as saying "Jordan > Lebron, so 92 wins!" Magic was already dealing with HIV and had taken an entire year off from basketball. You could see how hard he struggled to keep up in the scrimmages, and he was playing with slower, less athletic players. There's no one who would have played in a hypothetical matchup that he could have guarded, which would have either killed his team's defense or forced him to sit. Don't even start with Bird because he was practically handicapped. His descriptions of what he was dealing with that summer make it clear that it would have been impossible for him to play significant minutes against the 2008/12 teams. It wasn't about age with Bird, it was about his severe back problems. I grew up an LA Laker fan and Kobe has been one of my favorite players to watch, I even own 25 of his Rookie cards, but it's undeniable that he is a sub-par player to Jordan. He shoots 10% worse from the field (43% to 51%+ of Jordan) and was statistically was 1-2 points worse in each category than Jordan. He also has smaller hands than Jordan. Irrelevant. This isn't a Jordan vs. Kobe debate, and any superiority Jordan had in the matchup wouldn't be enough to overcome the other disadvantages the 1992 team would have had. The 1992 Dream Team also featured a College player named Christian Laettner, probably because they needed another white guy on the team, when the runner-up College player to the squad was a guy named Shaquille O'neal (about to enter a Rookie season where he would challenge Jordan's Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals). Laettner would never had stepped on the floor in such a game. Same goes for guys like Redd or arguably Boozer. Let's compare the starting line-ups (main back-up is listed in parenthesis): 1992 C: David Robinson (Patrick Ewing) PF: Charles Barkley (Karl Malone, both split time starting but Barkley led the team in scoring and FG%) SF: Larry Bird (Scottie Pippen, both split time starting but Pippen saw more minutes as Bird would retire from basketball after the Olympics.) SG: Michael Jordan (Clyde Drexler) PG: Magic Johnson (John Stockton was the backup but played very few minutes, much like Jason Kidd on the 2008 team.) 2008 C: Dwight Howard (Chris Bosh) PF: Carmelo Anthony (Carlos Boozer) SF: Lebron James (Tayshaun Prince) SG: Kobe Bryant (Dwayne Wade would lead the team in Scoring and FG% though from the bench) PG: Chris Paul (Deron Williams, Jason Kidd started but played the least minutes on the team) 2012 --- this is the starting lineup and back ups that I would prefer to use. C: Tyson Chandler (Kevin Love) PF: Lebron James (Blake Griffin) SF: Kevin Durant (Carmelo Anthony) SG: Kobe Bryant (Russel Westbrook) PG: Chris Paul (Deron Williams) The 2012 Dream Team would probably stack up better against the 1992 team as Durant, Lebron, and Blake Griffin have matured from the 2008 team. Durant and Lebron would definitely cause the most match-up issues, but I can see Pippen and Jordan shutting down Durant with Magic dominating CP3 due to his size. Durant's maturity isn't an issue because he wasn't on the 2008 team, and is who he is in 2012. Lebron would be a better defender and more versatile on offense, but I don't think there should be too much of a difference due to his reduced role when playing on Team USA. Blake is a complete unknown at this point, and the only thing you can say about him is that he'd be the most athletic big on the floor, have the the strength to at least hold his position in the post against guys like Malone and Barkeley, but would be very limited on both sides of the court when playing against the level of experience that the 1992 team had. I don't think he does more than rebound and dunk when open. Pippen and Jordan would be as good a defensive wing tandem as you'd ever find in the league, so no question they would give Durant a lot of problems. However, having both of them on the floor at the same time leaves their team with two sub-par 3pt shooters who won't be able to spread the floor on offense. Lebron would be unguardable for either of them. Magic wouldn't be dominating CP3 with his size because he would barely be able to stay on the floor for the reasons explained above. I love Magic and think he's the best PG of all time, but we have to remember this was the 1992 version of him. Also, he was never a very good defender nor a good shooter, and was only worse in both regards in 1992 after contracting HIV and taking a year off. Plus, people are ignoring the fact that Deron has the size to matchup with Magic effectively, and would also be impossible for Magic to guard on the other end. Lebron is the only factor that can't be predicted, he will probably split minutes between PF and SF, but I don't think he'll be able to push around Karl Malone or Barkley. He might match-up well vs. Pippen and Bird, but it would be the ONLY matchup where the 1992 team doesn't have the advantage. Lebron had and has the size and strength to guard both Malone and Barkeley. He would give them a lot more problems than vice-versa. As I said in my post, Malone would have a tough time staying on the floor because he'd struggle to keep up with the PFs on the 2008/12 squads and his post offense (like everyone else's on the 1992 team) would be limited by their inability to stretch out the defense due to their lack of 3pt shooting. You'd likely have seen Pippen play more PF than Malone in such a matchup for those reasons. Also, 1992 Dream Team - 11 HOF (could have been 12 with Shaq instead of Laettner). 2008 - 6-8 players are guaranteed first ballot HOF. 2012 - 6-7 players on this squad will probably make the HOF based off their current achievements and potential. The whole HOF/rings comparison doesn't hold weight with me. Most of the 1992 squad were at the tail end of their careers, so of course their accomplishments would outweigh those of the much younger 2008/12 squads. Plus, it's all speculation as to which of the 2008/12 players will make it into the HOF. Honestly, I don't think there is a comparison... Also, without the 1992 Dream Team, the league and its players would not be the same. Without Jordan, there's no Kobe/Wade/Lebron. Without Magic, there's no Lebron/CP3. Without Bird, white guys would have been scared of the NBA and Basketball. This team created International Hype and influenced a new generation of players from all over the world to play BBall. /end rant To say there isn't a comparison is going too far. I'm fine with people saying that the 1992 team would win more often than not because the teams are both really amazing, but saying that one is significantly better than the other is just ignoring the facts. The rest of this paragraph has nothing to do with the discussion, so I don't see any need to respond to it. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:27 trancey wrote: @Xal)Cyric I think you're incorrect using comparisons using Stockton, Mullen, and Barkley. At this time, Barkley was an athletic freak that people thought was a 6'9'' - 6'10'' PF, where in reality, he was only 6'4''. Barkley is easily a better player in his prime than Bosh, Melo, or Griffin is at this time. Stockton played limited minutes and played in only 6 out of 16 games total or something like that. Mullen was also seldom used. Pippen was also an athletic freak at this time, leading the league in Steals and was 2-3 years away from being the guy without Jordan leading his team in every statistical category (literally, every single category). There is no doubt in my mind if you saw footage of this Pippen, you wouldn't doubt he could guard Durant or even Lebron. He was putting up Lebron-like numbers. Barkeley was certainly an athletic freak, but it's not like he would be the only one on the floor in such a matchup. Lebron is arguably everything he was but better. Melo is at least physically capable of guarding Barkeley due to his size and strength (underrated IMO), and would just as tough a cover on the other end for Barkeley (who was no defensive ace himself either). I've already made my comments about Griffin. I realized later that Stockton was also injured in 1992, which actually hurts them more than it helps. He was one of their three legitimate 3pt threats who could spread the floor, and the only PG other than Magic (who would have been limited for reasons I've already stated). That would then force the 1992 team to play with at most only one legitimate 3pt threat on the floor at any given time (Mullin), and potentially zero if when he sat or was unable to stay on the floor due to being unable to guard anyone on the 2008/12 rosters. Pippen was an amazing player for sure, and definitely could have guarded Durant. He would do about as well as anyone would against Lebron, but the fact is that no one can guard Lebron one on one period. On the other end, Pippen was not a good 3pt shooter and was certainly guardable by the 2008/12 wings. Edit: Missed the part about Mullin barely playing. As with Stockton, that would have hurt the 1992 team tremendously seeing as he was the only 3pt threat that wasn't injured on that team. If you take out Bird, Stockton and Mullin from that roster, the 1992 team would have had no 3pt shooters at all. That would have severely compromised their offense, particularly against the type of defense that the 2008/12 teams utilize and are capable of. You allow Deron, Kobe, Lebron, Melo and D12/Chandler just pack the paint, and no amount of individual one-on-one and/or post offense is going to be effective. | ||
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thuracine
United States582 Posts
On July 13 2012 03:33 Southlight wrote: Except the Heat crush zone defense, especially if they just stick Lebron in the post. The Heat struggle against zone and was a big reason Dallas was able to win the title last year. It maybe one of the only weakness they have, Boston was successful with zone in the ECF. Thunder doesn't practice zone defensive so they played man we saw how that worked. Side note: Today I learned Shaq has a PHD. Dr. Oneal one scary doctor | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
After the breakdown against Dallas the role players stepped up + Lebron started walking into the post -> the Heat tore up zone unless you had a superior bigman, and even then it's tough to deal with P&R versus Bosh. Amusingly, statistically when the Heat ran two non-PG (in terms of role) 3pt shooters they scored at an average of 124ish per game, which is ridiculous. With the addition of Ray Allen, assuming he's healthy, and Rashard, they can do something like that more often. And as we all know outside shooting destroys zone, so... in many ways it'd be a horrible decision to run zone against the Heat. They've actually historically been significantly worse against man because Wade and LBJ have trouble moving without the ball - they stepped it up in the playoffs halfway through the Pacers? series - but then the LBJ post started wrecking man coverage as well. http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/05/29/celtics-zone/ There we go. But here’s reality: The Heat have played against a lot of zone this season, and they have done quite well against it. Only three teams — Utah, Charlotte and Oklahoma City — faced zone defenses on a larger percentage of their possessions than Miami did, according to a report prepared for SI.com by the statistics- and video-tracking service Synergy Sports. The Heat shot 48.3 percent against zones (112-of-232), the third-best mark in the league, behind only Sacramento and Orlando, which went against a zone less often than any other team. The Heat scored more efficiently against zones, in terms of points per possession, than they did overall for the season, per Synergy. Also, I don't think the Celts' zone worked too well against the Heat once they got Bosh back. If anything the Heat shooting like a miserable 15-20% from 3pt range on essentially wide-open looks "was an effective defense", plus the ineffective PNR against Kevin Garnett due to the lack of Bosh' range - this would be his man coverage on LBJ working extremely well, but that's because he's KG. Once Bosh got back and got his legs under him the Heat ran away with it. | ||
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Sadist
United States7239 Posts
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
Also in a game with so many elite players, defense takes a backseat to just pure scoring. No matter what you do most everyone on both teams will find ways to score, and at a glance, I would put Jordan/Robinson (He was averaging 25 points a game and he's against a relatively small team)/Barkley above Kobe/Durant/Lebron (though Durant would be pretty hard to stop with the Dream Team lineup). | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
 . Great post!I think people get era bias when it comes to the 92 Dream Team. Aside from Jordan, there is no one on that roster better than Kobe/LeBron/Wade. 08/12 has 3 of the 4 best players on the court and Jordan has to directly contend with all of them. People are underestimating how much energy Jordan is going to have to use up especially going up against modern NBA defenses. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On July 13 2012 06:26 Ace wrote: Applause at Cyric . Great post!I think people get era bias when it comes to the 92 Dream Team. Aside from Jordan, there is no one on that roster better than Kobe/LeBron/Wade. 08/12 has 3 of the 4 best players on the court and Jordan has to directly contend with all of them. People are underestimating how much energy Jordan is going to have to use up especially going up against modern NBA defenses. Are you sure Wade is better than Chuck? Jordan Kobe LeBron is the obvious top 3 (in whatever order), but i think it's a close call for the 4th best guy. Also, the main problem for the 1992 team is that it wasn't the best collection of NBA talent from that year. Magic, Bird, and Stockton shouldn't have been on it (Stockton was injured). Replace them with Glen Rice, KJ, and Tim Hardaway, and they would probably fare a bit better vs. 08/12. I still have no clue who would slow down LeBron though. Even Pippen would have a hell of a time trying, especially considering these are Olympic teams and players get 5 fouls instead of 6. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
The 92 team really has no one that can even dent those 3. These guys had issues with prime MJ as a slasher in the league, and Wade and LeBron are even better slashers than he was. I really don't see how they have a chance defending these guys even with Pippen in the game 48 minutes. Just too taxing on their individual players to keep up. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
And also have we forgotten about durant, supposedly the 2nd best player in the league? He'd absolutely kill on offense with this format. He was a monster in the all star game and he'd be a monster here. He's a ridiculously good 3 point catch and shooter, and his size and athleticism makes him impossible to guard. | ||
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thuracine
United States582 Posts
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