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On July 12 2012 07:51 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:42 Holcan wrote:
well, at least you admit they were talking about contenders, and not star power, that's all I set out to prove.
LOLL okay. I knew as soon as i answered your post that didn't address anything i wrote I was setting up a stupid retort like that. Believe what you want.
lakers mentality 101, argue useless semantics for a couple hours, than LOL in ridicule over the most asinine post while claiming fanboyism by the other person, these are good notes.
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On July 12 2012 07:42 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Probably banking on Brook being more the 18/8 guy in his 2nd season, rather than the 20/3-6 guy these past couple of seasons.
To be fair, Brook has never had quality teammates around him during his career and has had to carry a heavy offensive load every year. His best teammates were Vince Carter in his rookie year, and Devin Harris in his 2nd and 3rd. It's possible that having to score so much has affected his production in other areas like rebounding. I'm not saying the guy was ever a good rebounder, but I don't think he's necessarily 6 reb/g bad either. At least not yet.
It should also be noted that he was doing alright prior to Humphries becoming a rebounding monster at around 8 reb/g. Still not what you'd want from a Center, but it could be argued that his 19-20 ppg offsets it a bit. It's not unreasonable for BK to have hope that playing with Deron and JJ may bring out a more complete player in Brook by lessening his offensive burden. The guy is still very young after all and certainly quite talented.
Also, and I've harped on it way too much in this thread already, talented PF/Cs are just expensive in the NBA these days. Look at what specialists like DeAndre and Asik are getting, and they're completely one dimensional. Arguably, Brook is more talented all-around and is capable of being a much better all-around player than either of those guys. $15M/yr is a lot in general, but not as unreasonable as it would be for a non-PF/C.
Good Cs/PFs are hard to come by cause it's just damn hard to find someone who's 6'10+ and talented, but I definitely don't think they're worth it, particularly if they're mediocre. Most of the time you're gonna get way less minutes out of those guys, they're prone to injury, and it's pretty rare that they'll ever be a primary scoring option. They'll usually be number 2 or 3, even if you're dwight. With that said, kevin love could be so damn good if he learned how to play D. Seriously, mediocre big men get paid waaaay too much, especially when you take into consideration the salaries of way better big men who'd make them look like they're 6'5 on the court.
Then again, screw centers. They fucked over blazers twice in the draft, oden as well as not getting michael jordan cause we wanted some injury prone giant.
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On July 12 2012 07:56 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:51 MassHysteria wrote:On July 12 2012 07:42 Holcan wrote:
well, at least you admit they were talking about contenders, and not star power, that's all I set out to prove.
LOLL okay. I knew as soon as i answered your post that didn't address anything i wrote I was setting up a stupid retort like that. Believe what you want. lakers mentality 101, argue useless semantics for a couple hours, than LOL in ridicule over the most asinine post while claiming fanboyism by the other person, these are good notes.
ya, bc that is what I did...look back to see who did that first? And is still doing that now in the same post I am quoting. I only claimed fanboyism because I thought it would show you the irony in your post. You humor me.
IDK I just feel that the Nets didn't want to let Lopez go away for free. Since they didn't get Howard, they knew they had to keep him because who else will they be able to sign? It seems like the amount is too much, but I mean if they win I guess he could be worth the value? 15 million a year just seems like a lot for him but maybe I am off on his market value.
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I don't know if you are just being ignorant to what I posted, or stupid. if you don't think there aren't a massive amount of espn readers who are laker fans, compared to spurs and celtic fans, there's nothing else to say in this conversation.
you take my post to be flame bait, for whatever reason, and act throws your arms up in disgust as if what I said is somehow hurtful to you, or your team.
I don't think its far fetched to say that lakers fans are incredibly vocal about needing to be contenders, especially in the eyes of the media, and that spurs fans, and to a lesser extent boston fans, are used to being slighted from the contenders list.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:42 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Probably banking on Brook being more the 18/8 guy in his 2nd season, rather than the 20/3-6 guy these past couple of seasons.
To be fair, Brook has never had quality teammates around him during his career and has had to carry a heavy offensive load every year. His best teammates were Vince Carter in his rookie year, and Devin Harris in his 2nd and 3rd. It's possible that having to score so much has affected his production in other areas like rebounding. I'm not saying the guy was ever a good rebounder, but I don't think he's necessarily 6 reb/g bad either. At least not yet.
It should also be noted that he was doing alright prior to Humphries becoming a rebounding monster at around 8 reb/g. Still not what you'd want from a Center, but it could be argued that his 19-20 ppg offsets it a bit. It's not unreasonable for BK to have hope that playing with Deron and JJ may bring out a more complete player in Brook by lessening his offensive burden. The guy is still very young after all and certainly quite talented.
Also, and I've harped on it way too much in this thread already, talented PF/Cs are just expensive in the NBA these days. Look at what specialists like DeAndre and Asik are getting, and they're completely one dimensional. Arguably, Brook is more talented all-around and is capable of being a much better all-around player than either of those guys. $15M/yr is a lot in general, but not as unreasonable as it would be for a non-PF/C. Good Cs/PFs are hard to come by cause it's just damn hard to find someone who's 6'10+ and talented, but I definitely don't think they're worth it, particularly if they're mediocre. Most of the time you're gonna get way less minutes out of those guys, they're prone to injury, and it's pretty rare that they'll ever be a primary scoring option. They'll usually be number 2 or 3, even if you're dwight. With that said, kevin love could be so damn good if he learned how to play D. Seriously, mediocre big men get paid waaaay too much, especially when you take into consideration the salaries of way better big men who'd make them look like they're 6'5 on the court. Then again, screw centers. They fucked over blazers twice in the draft, oden as well as not getting michael jordan cause we wanted some injury prone giant.
I'm of the opinion that they are worth it within reason. There is plenty of evidence to show that having a strong frontcourt is a huge advantage in basketball, and it's not hard to see why. The paint is where the easiest baskets are scored, where offensive rebounds that get you extra possessions are obtained, where defensive rebounds are secured to complete a successful defensive sequence, etc. Controlling the paint is a huge deal, and PF/Cs are the only way to do that.
If you accept that, then the undeniable dearth of talented PF/Cs is going to inflate their value to teams. It may not be worth $15M/yr for a player of Brook's talent in a vaccum, but it may be worth it to have him as opposed to someone like Landry, Turiaf, Bass, etc., particularly if your other bigs are GWall (a SF/PF), a European stretch 4 who's never played in the NBA, and Johan Petro. Brook is a legitimate 7-footer with good size that is capable of producing 18/8/1.5 at about 49%/79%, and is young and has room to improve/grow. There very few players like that in the league, and the dropoff is significant past them.
Some relevant articles:
http://basketball.realgm.com/article/214815/Big_Man_Scarcity
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/9/5/2401290/supersized-frontlines-perimeter-players-nba
http://basketball.realgm.com/article/216778/The_Big_Picture_Out_Of_The_Lockout
P.S. I know people are going to point out that the Heat won the championship without a great frontcourt, but I'd argue that Lebron and Bosh formed one of the best frontcourts in the league. Lebron is the size of most NBA PFs these days, and has strength, length and athleticism to make up for any minor differences in size/height. Bosh is a legitimate PF/C capable of putting up 20/10 as he did in TOR for years. At the end of the day, the Heat were able to control the paint, which has been shown to be key to winning in the NBA for years.
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United States4471 Posts
Holcan and MassHysteria... let's just agree that you two are likely arguing different things and are just missing each other's points. Time to move on.
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Brook Lopez at $15 mill huh? I'm curious as to why the Nets paid to much. Was anyone actually bidding against them? I don't recall see any interest in Lopez during FA?
edit: apparently Portland and the Lolcats made offers for Lopez. My bad.
Guy can score, but he's second only to Bargs in terms of softness and lack of D.
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United States4471 Posts
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He's soft. It's plain and simple (for good or bad). Rebounding is about boxing out strongly and wanting the ball. It's a pretty simple skill, but one that takes will and aggression. To me Lopez just doesn't seem to be an aggressive guy.
Look at the top rebounders and try identify one of them who isn't an aggressive GTFO of my way type player. I doubt you'll find one. Lopez has the physical traits to be a good rebounder but it's upstairs where he lets himself down. There's really no excuse for me that he's so poor in this area when it's something he could rectify. I know I'm simplyfying rebounding a tad (you do have to be good on anticipation, boxing, angles etc) but's it's the easiest part of the game Lopez can work on. He just needs to harden up and take his punishment inside which he seems adverse to (and which is also the reason he's such a terrible defender).
1. Dwight Howard, ORL 14.5
2. Kevin Love, MIN 13.3
3. Andrew Bynum, LAL 11.8
4. DeMarcus Cousins, SAC 11.0
5. Kris Humphries, NJ 11.0
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United States4471 Posts
Brook could definitely use a workhorse/banger type playing next to him in the frontcourt. I think he can make the contract reasonable if he can just be an averageto-slightly above average rebounder and defender while providing great offense at his position. Problem is that big guys who can rebound and defend are hard to find and won't come cheap. Still won't be a championship roster IMO, but at least they could be a contender.
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I actually don't see why everyone is so prepared to offer Roy Hibbert upwards of $12-$13 million on an escalator but balks at Brook at the same amount. They're wildly similar from a production standpoint, I would say Hibbert is marginally better at this point. Both are pretty limited in terms of their growth and neither is a double-digit win player. So...we have learned that the NBA overpays bigs.
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Move Dwight to the West plz... my Knicks say thank you~~ <3 
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On July 11 2012 13:18 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 12:57 Durp wrote:On July 11 2012 12:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:On July 11 2012 12:02 QTIP. wrote:On July 11 2012 12:00 thuracine wrote:
To soon to call for the repeat. Curious on how LBJ conditioning with hold up next season, playing in the Olympics and a full NBA season with the type of minutes he plays. I know Kobe had some trouble with this after the 08 Olympics who only does what half of what LBJ does on the floor. LBJ is young and made of adamantium. He is virtually indestructible. I'm sure his body will hold just fine. In all seriousness, with the exception of that ghost elbow injury and the severe cramps during this years Finals, I have never seen Lebron's body fail him. He is the pinnacle of raw athletic ability in the NBA right now. ive heard randomly from all over the place that he is the pinnacle of raw athletic ability in the history of the game. is this true? I'm not remotely an LBJ fan (which has been well documented in the NBA playoffs thread) but I'd say he's the pinnacle of raw athletic ability in just about any pro sport. I can't think of a single player in any sport (Demarcus Ware is the closest to pop to mind) that matches LBJ's freak-of-nature athleticism. The guy who said he's made of adamantium had me laughing, and it wouldn't surprise me at all. LBJ kind of reminds me of the T-1000 from Terminator 2: Judgement Day. football has some great strong athletes. cam newton is a hell of a specimen. adrian peterson as well. recently rg3 had a 4.4 40yard dash and a 39 inch vertical and the dudes a quarter back. granted rg3 is like 6 inches shorter than lebron, but cam newton is the closest to lebron imo. 6'5 hella strong fast
Best raw athlete in the NFL is Calvin Johnson
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Gonna have to disagree with you there ( ). If Brooke Lopez is your starting center, you aren't contending.
They'll be a solid regular season team but they're really not much more chop than the Hawks teams of years past (in fact, probably a little worse). At best they're a second round team, but more likely first round fodder for me. I can't see them being better than Miami, Boston, Indy, Bulls or NYK. I think they'll be battling for 6-8 seeds with teams like Philly, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Washington and maybe even the Cavs.
Serious teams have a bit of D in them and apart from G Wall I don't see much defensive presence in the Nets. It's why they needed D12 so badly.
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Darren Collison is a lot better than people give him credit for...He'll be good in Dallas.
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On July 12 2012 10:15 slyboogie wrote:
I actually don't see why everyone is so prepared to offer Roy Hibbert upwards of $12-$13 million on an escalator but balks at Brook at the same amount. They're wildly similar from a production standpoint, I would say Hibbert is marginally better at this point. Both are pretty limited in terms of their growth and neither is a double-digit win player. So...we have learned that the NBA overpays bigs.
Hibbert is light years ahead of Brooks defensively and a great passer
@Cyric: I agree that controlling the paint is a big deal. But when contending for a championship just loading up on size hasn't been a good idea in the NBA for almost a decade now. Too many top tier perimeter players get to the rim and eat front lines alive. Better to get a strong wing defender and pair him with a big to make both of their lives easier imo.
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Hibbert is a real center. If the Nets don't resign Humphries then they'll probably become the worst reb team in the league.
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So the Nets have ~$54 mill tied up in D Will, JJ and Lopez.
I really think there are a few posters on here who could do a better job than Billy King. It's a good thing the Russian billionaire's knowledge of NBA FO workings probably isn't great or poor Billy may have been on the streets after completing his "big three". At least they got D Will I guess. =/
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EPT
