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United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:
Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the term.
Yes, but that's at least partially attributable to the relative age of the competitive scene, and not to any inherent aspect of the game. Again, you can draw the analogy to SC2. During SC2's infancy, and even arguably now, the skill of the player-base was comparatively low compared to SC1. Before Masters/Grandmasters existed, being Diamond had absolutely no meaning, because there were plenty of pretty terrible players in Diamond. The only acknowledge-ably good players were those that really played at the top.
LoL is certainly not that young anymore, but it's also fairly clear that until recently, Riot never invested any serious effort into building it as a competitive game, whereas Blizzard was at least ostensibly serious about SC2 as an "Esport" from the get-go.
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On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch.
I see what you're saying but I would say that DotA and HoN have as much of an emphasis on the importance of the team as it does in LoL, with individual skill simply being more visible and prominent, it's also more engaging in direct competition during the laning phase as opposed to the passivity in LoL. So basically, they already have all the team requirements while also placing an importance on individual skill, which in my opinion makes for a better competitive game.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 07:35 Mordiford wrote:
I see what you're saying but I would say that DotA and HoN have as much of an emphasis on the importance of the team as it does in LoL, with individual skill simply being more visible and prominent, it's also more engaging in direct competition during the laning phase as opposed to the passivity in LoL. So basically, they already have all the team requirements while also placing an importance on individual skill, which in my opinion makes for a better competitive game.
I don't think anyone is arguing that LoL is a better competitive game than HoN/DotA (at least I'm not). The point is that most of the arguments directed against LoL can also be directed at SC2 in relation to SC1 (e.g. removing core mechanical elements for the sake of greater accessibility/emphasis on other elements). If we're making concessions because a game is more accessible and more popular, we should at least try to be fair and consistent. There's a difference of degrees, sure, but when you're trying to argue that Riot removed more mechanical emphasis in designing LoL than Blizzard did making SC2, you start to get super subjective and it's hard to make any headway because the games aren't easy to compare.
Personally, I was very skeptical about the whole shift toward accessibility at the cost of competitive elements until I really sat down to play and watch SC2 with some friends who were way worse. I think it's huge that even at low levels, you can make headway in laying out all aspects of the game to a player who is not all that invested in the game--while in BW when you're starting out, you do have to spend a signficant amount of time telling yourself "the most important way I can improve right now is to macro better". You still have to do that at super low levels in SC2, but getting to the nitty-gritty aspects of timing, unit composition, etc. is much easier, and because it's easier to get the casual player to the level where they can understand that, so is it easier to get the spectator to a place where they can understand it as well.
It's the same deal with LoL/DotA and the basic mechanics of the game. As a competitive player, these elements add depth to the game, but you have to realize that spectators and casual players don't really find them interesting at all. It's really awkward to explain that someone is doing better because they're better at macroing or denying/last-hitting, and while these are important aspects, their importance is not immediately visible to the uninitiated spectator, which likewise makes the action harder to follow because one side may be winning based on some element that you didn't understand/didn't pay attention to.
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On July 11 2011 07:35 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req."
But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. I see what you're saying but I would say that DotA and HoN have as much of an emphasis on the importance of the team as it does in LoL, with individual skill simply being more visible and prominent, it's also more engaging in direct competition during the laning phase as opposed to the passivity in LoL. So basically, they already have all the team requirements while also placing an importance on individual skill, which in my opinion makes for a better competitive game.
Well ok, I'm a DotA player waiting for DotA 2 so I'm not really arguing with you lol. I was just correcting the guy who said 1700 is comparable to mid-high skill in HoN.
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On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch.
This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level.
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On July 11 2011 07:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:35 Mordiford wrote:
I see what you're saying but I would say that DotA and HoN have as much of an emphasis on the importance of the team as it does in LoL, with individual skill simply being more visible and prominent, it's also more engaging in direct competition during the laning phase as opposed to the passivity in LoL. So basically, they already have all the team requirements while also placing an importance on individual skill, which in my opinion makes for a better competitive game. I don't think anyone is arguing that LoL is a better competitive game than HoN/DotA (at least I'm not). The point is that most of the arguments directed against LoL can also be directed at SC2 in relation to SC1 (e.g. removing core mechanical elements for the sake of greater accessibility/emphasis on other elements). If we're making concessions because a game is more accessible and more popular, we should at least try to be fair and consistent. There's a difference of degrees, sure, but when you're trying to argue that Riot removed more mechanical emphasis in designing LoL than Blizzard did making SC2, you start to get super subjective and it's hard to make any headway because the games aren't easy to compare.
I think those distinctions are important though, the additions made in SC2 took away from stuff that was largely unnecessary extra work.
It's like if I asked a basketball player to tap his head every time he dribbled the ball, that would be kinda dumb even though it may increase the overall amount of stuff a player has to do making the game harder, however, if I removed dribbling from the game, that would substantially lower the skill involved and more importantly removes a situation of direct competition between players, a situation where an opportunity for competitive conflict is created.
I feel like drawing the comparison between DotA and LoL isn't really the same thing as BW and SC2, sure there are some comparisons that can be drawn, but the degree to which they occur does matter.
On July 11 2011 07:40 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:35 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:
[quote]
There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. I see what you're saying but I would say that DotA and HoN have as much of an emphasis on the importance of the team as it does in LoL, with individual skill simply being more visible and prominent, it's also more engaging in direct competition during the laning phase as opposed to the passivity in LoL. So basically, they already have all the team requirements while also placing an importance on individual skill, which in my opinion makes for a better competitive game. Well ok, I'm a DotA player waiting for DotA 2 so I'm not really arguing with you lol. I was just correcting the guy who said 1700 is comparable to mid-high skill in HoN.
I'm waiting for Dota 2 as well. 
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LoL is a far more visually appealing game for the masses. Not seen DotA like... ever, however I've tried HoN a few times, and I hate the bigger map, I hate the stupid size of the jungle, I hate how dark the game is. Gameplay wise I didn't enjoy it either.
Sure the skillset is different, but different doesn't equal one being worse. There are, perhaps, less ways of showing how OMG GREAT you are in LoL, but whereas HoN is a LOT more about your carry, LoL the entire team is more prominent. Overall though, the reason it's better for esports is that it will draw more viewers BECAUSE it's easier to look at, a bit easier to understand, and since it's free to play people will be much more likely to try it out themselves and thus be able to identify with what's going on on the screen.
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On July 11 2011 07:43 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req."
But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level.
Depends what you consider top I guess. I don't think I used the word professional in my statement. Sure, if you're talking about the top 10 teams in the world, you're right. If you extend that to the top 20-30, not so much.
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On July 11 2011 07:46 IMABUNNEH wrote:
LoL is a far more visually appealing game for the masses. Not seen DotA like... ever, however I've tried HoN a few times, and I hate the bigger map, I hate the stupid size of the jungle, I hate how dark the game is. Gameplay wise I didn't enjoy it either.
Sure the skillset is different, but different doesn't equal one being worse. There are, perhaps, less ways of showing how OMG GREAT you are in LoL, but whereas HoN is a LOT more about your carry, LoL the entire team is more prominent. Overall though, the reason it's better for esports is that it will draw more viewers BECAUSE it's easier to look at, a bit easier to understand, and since it's free to play people will be much more likely to try it out themselves and thus be able to identify with what's going on on the screen.
I heavily disagree, the team aspect is just as defined in HoN or DotA, it's even more deep with niche roles that are situational and change slightly as the game goes on which makes it more interesting. I think both games are pretty easy to look at, but HoN is more fun to watch, LoL was always a snorefest to me as a spectator.
Regardless, they have a large player-base so this should go well for MLG in terms of viewership, but it largely falls in the same vein as Black Ops for me, huge player-base, but not a great competitive game and not that fun to watch.
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So where is this MLG anyways. Where is Raleigh?
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On July 11 2011 02:30 VeryAverage wrote:
Just fix the scaling first. It's so terrible when characters die INSTANTLY. Team fights can be over in a matter of seconds because of AoE spamming and the terrible ability scaling. They should just scrap the AP system and get with the program. There was a reason you couldn't make spells do twice as much damage by getting items in DotA. Because it breaks the game.
This is bullshit, i've watched HoN games and people die in a few hits.
In LoL anyone building tank/tanky will be extremely hard to kill, of course if you build glass cannon then you will die very fast if another glass cannon nukes you. But all good players understands the importance of survivability and adapts their build accordingly.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 07:46 Mordiford wrote:
I think those distinctions are important though, the additions made in SC2 took away from stuff that was largely unnecessary extra work.
It's like if I asked a basketball player to tap his head every time he dribbled the ball, that would be kinda dumb even though it may increase the overall amount of stuff a player has to do making the game harder, however, if I removed dribbling from the game, that would substantially lower the skill involved and more importantly removes a situation of direct competition between players, a situation where an opportunity for competitive conflict is created.
I feel like drawing the comparison between DotA and LoL isn't really the same thing as BW and SC2, sure there are some comparisons that can be drawn, but the degree to which they occur does matter.
You're proving my point. It's hard to make headway in this argument because what's "largely unnecessary work" is hugely subjective. Anyone seriously invested in SC1 will tell you that the mechanical demand of macro (and the corresponding tradeoffs it created between diverting your attention to either managing your production/economy and managing your army) was a hugely important aspect to the depth of SC1 as a game, and not "largely unnecessary work." The point being that depending how invested you are in the game, the importance you place on certain aspects is very subjective and will vary widely. To not be sympathetic to the importance of those gameplay elements from competitive gaming backgrounds not your own is hypocrisy.
Ironically, I used the exact analogy of "removing dribbling from the basketball" as an analogy for the simplification of macro in SC2 around this time last year.
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On July 11 2011 07:46 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:43 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:
[quote]
There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level. Depends what you consider top I guess. I don't think I used the word professional in my statement. Sure, if you're talking about the top 10 teams in the world, you're right. If you extend that to the top 20-30, not so much.
While you did not mention whether teams were professional or not, I think it's more pertinent to talk about the professional scene of the games since it relates to the actual "esports-ness" of the games. Extending it to the top 20-30 isn't a good idea since there's 5 players for each team, making it a somewhat top 100-150 for a SC ladder, and keeping track of skill levels and mastery of the game doesn't really work for that size.
Either way often these lower tiered players are often high skill, I've played with many players who played support centered heroes on their team that were pretty good carries as well (and vice versa), it just depends on how well they know how to play that role. Mechanically even good support players have to have a good foundation, the term "ward bitches" only apply to people who don't understand and play their role that well.
On July 11 2011 07:51 57 Corvette wrote:
So where is this MLG anyways. Where is Raleigh?
North Carolina, USA.
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On July 11 2011 07:59 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:46 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:43 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:
[quote]
Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say!
That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level. Depends what you consider top I guess. I don't think I used the word professional in my statement. Sure, if you're talking about the top 10 teams in the world, you're right. If you extend that to the top 20-30, not so much. While you did not mention whether teams were professional or not, I think it's more pertinent to talk about the professional scene of the games since it relates to the actual "esports-ness" of the games. Extending it to the top 20-30 isn't a good idea since there's 5 players for each team, making it a somewhat top 100-150 for a SC ladder, and keeping track of skill levels and mastery of the game doesn't really work for that size.
Yeah, I guess the reason I made that statement is because Mordiford was trying to undermine the skill cap in LoL by saying the top LoL teams are meh, while the top HoN/DotA teams are full of gosus. You can't compare the top LoL teams to the top DotA teams (of old), because LoL has infinitely fewer competitive teams, and a much smaller scene. There are less good teams because there are less teams, not because the players are less skilled. That's why I said there were only a few teams at DH that were actually quite skilled, and the same was true in DotA, but on a larger scale.
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LoL is so bad, the game being picked up = esports going backwards.
R.I.P esports!
User was banned for this post.
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On July 11 2011 08:11 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:59 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:46 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:43 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:
[quote]
The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level. Depends what you consider top I guess. I don't think I used the word professional in my statement. Sure, if you're talking about the top 10 teams in the world, you're right. If you extend that to the top 20-30, not so much. While you did not mention whether teams were professional or not, I think it's more pertinent to talk about the professional scene of the games since it relates to the actual "esports-ness" of the games. Extending it to the top 20-30 isn't a good idea since there's 5 players for each team, making it a somewhat top 100-150 for a SC ladder, and keeping track of skill levels and mastery of the game doesn't really work for that size. Yeah, I guess the reason I made that statement is because Mordiford was trying to undermine the skill cap in LoL by saying the top LoL teams are meh, while the top HoN/DotA teams are full of gosus. You can't compare the top LoL teams to the top DotA teams (of old), because LoL has infinitely fewer competitive teams, and a much smaller scene. There are less good teams because there are less teams, not because the players are less skilled. That's why I said there were only a few teams at DH that were actually quite skilled, and the same was true in DotA, but on a larger scale.
LoL's too young and not optimal as a competitive game as its missing features and very good balance, but there's a huge playerbase MLG probably wants to get attention from--this discussion is like beating a dead horse.
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On July 11 2011 08:11 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:59 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:46 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:43 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 07:31 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:
[quote]
The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms. I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch. This is an extremely wrong and naive statement about the top professional DotA teams, particularly in the Chinese scene. ALL of the players are high skill and take a lot of training to fit themselves into the mesh of playing that role best. It's been a known problem for teams to switch around roles because the players have to get accustomed to playing in that role and they have to get used to playing with each other also. However, switching roles has happened successfully both ways, so it's an incorrect statement to say that all 5 players on the team are not of high skill level. Depends what you consider top I guess. I don't think I used the word professional in my statement. Sure, if you're talking about the top 10 teams in the world, you're right. If you extend that to the top 20-30, not so much. While you did not mention whether teams were professional or not, I think it's more pertinent to talk about the professional scene of the games since it relates to the actual "esports-ness" of the games. Extending it to the top 20-30 isn't a good idea since there's 5 players for each team, making it a somewhat top 100-150 for a SC ladder, and keeping track of skill levels and mastery of the game doesn't really work for that size. Yeah, I guess the reason I made that statement is because Mordiford was trying to undermine the skill cap in LoL by saying the top LoL teams are meh, while the top HoN/DotA teams are full of gosus. You can't compare the top LoL teams to the top DotA teams (of old), because LoL has infinitely fewer competitive teams, and a much smaller scene. There are less good teams because there are less teams, not because the players are less skilled. That's why I said there were only a few teams at DH that were actually quite skilled, and the same was true in DotA, but on a larger scale.
I actually never said anything even close to that...
I just said that HoN and DotA are more competitive but I understand why MLG would choose LoL.
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On July 11 2011 08:16 cALiFoRNiA KuSh wrote:
LoL is so bad, the game being picked up = esports going backwards.
R.I.P esports!
You do realize that this is the same organization that hosts Call of Duty, Halo, and previously Gears of War tournaments? What do you have to say about that?
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On July 11 2011 07:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:46 Mordiford wrote:
I think those distinctions are important though, the additions made in SC2 took away from stuff that was largely unnecessary extra work.
It's like if I asked a basketball player to tap his head every time he dribbled the ball, that would be kinda dumb even though it may increase the overall amount of stuff a player has to do making the game harder, however, if I removed dribbling from the game, that would substantially lower the skill involved and more importantly removes a situation of direct competition between players, a situation where an opportunity for competitive conflict is created.
I feel like drawing the comparison between DotA and LoL isn't really the same thing as BW and SC2, sure there are some comparisons that can be drawn, but the degree to which they occur does matter. You're proving my point. It's hard to make headway in this argument because what's "largely unnecessary work" is hugely subjective. Anyone seriously invested in SC1 will tell you that the mechanical demand of macro (and the corresponding tradeoffs it created between diverting your attention to either managing your production/economy and managing your army) was a hugely important aspect to the depth of SC1 as a game, and not "largely unnecessary work." The point being that depending how invested you are in the game, the importance you place on certain aspects is very subjective and will vary widely. To not be sympathetic to the importance of those gameplay elements from competitive gaming backgrounds not your own is hypocrisy. Ironically, I used the exact analogy of "removing dribbling from the basketball" as an analogy for the simplification of macro in SC2 around this time last year.
Yeah. I wouldn't call removing the heavy macro from SC2 a good call by Blizzard. It's honestly just as ridiculous of a change as removing creep deny from LoL imo. Obviously people disagree and that's fine, it doesn't mean SC2 takes no skill or isn't interesting to watch, but it isn't just some minor change that isn't comparable to the DotA -> LoL change. I don't want this to be a BW vs. SC2 argument though, but I think the fact that so many SC2 fans complain about LoL as being a casual, no-skill, version of DotA is ironic to say the least.
I'd be fine if DotA2 replaced LoL as I hope it's good. Right now I play LoL because it's fun and because I can't stand the UI, graphics, and community of HoN. Would gladly move to DotA2 if it's as good as DotA was.
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EPT
