|
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option.
|
On July 11 2011 06:22 MisterD wrote:
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option.
yes the skill requirement or quality of a game is COMPLETELY irrelevant to mlg as it should be. if its logistically easily doable and has a ton(maybe more than sc2) viewers thats all that matters
|
On July 11 2011 06:25 isleyofthenorth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:22 MisterD wrote:
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option. yes the skill requirement or quality of a game is COMPLETELY irrelevant to mlg as it should be. if its logistically easily doable and has a ton(maybe more than sc2) viewers thats all that matters
MLG's had a very known history of taking newer and more popular games over games that had better gameplay, anybody remember Brawl over Melee (and then Brawl was dropped in 2011)? They have to take profitability into account given the kind of organization MLG is. So people shouldn't really be beating the dead horse of "HoN/DotA takes more skill than LoL" which is a rather pointless and off topic discussion just like "BW takes more skill than SC2".
|
On July 11 2011 06:33 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:25 isleyofthenorth wrote:On July 11 2011 06:22 MisterD wrote:
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option. yes the skill requirement or quality of a game is COMPLETELY irrelevant to mlg as it should be. if its logistically easily doable and has a ton(maybe more than sc2) viewers thats all that matters MLG's had a very known history of taking newer and more popular games over games that had better gameplay, anybody remember Brawl over Melee (and then Brawl was dropped in 2011)? They have to take profitability into account given the kind of organization MLG is. So people shouldn't really be beating the dead horse of "HoN/DotA takes more skill than LoL" which is a rather pointless and off topic discussion just like "BW takes more skill than SC2".
Brawl was dropped because Nintendo wouldn't allow them to livestream it.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:
Except, and this is important; from sc2 to bw there isn't too much of a change as where there is less skill needed to play sc2 its skillcap is still so high that no one person will ever play perfectly. From Dota to LoL its such an incredibly simplification of the dota game that skill does not matter as much because there is very little you can do to improve your "position" in the game with raw skill.
I can go over the millions of little things you can do in dota to get ahead but honestly there are so many and they are so varied that even after years of playing the genre I am 100% certain that I am not aware of everything and that alone proves my point. I can honestly say that dota's skill cap is entirely unreachable at a personal level, and not only is it unreachable no one yet is even close.
There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware).
I just hate to see games that aren't strong competitive titles get positions in the most prestigious tournaments we have to offer in NA as it surely stifles the strong titles from edging in. I can't really imagine MLG picking up HoN after having LoL.
TL;DR LoL has no place as a competitive title, just by the fact it requires so little skill to play. Think competitive Tick Tack Toe when chess or go are available.
These two segments illustrate where the difference in views arises.
You are using mechanical skill and individual skill as a measure of the skill-cap in a game that is inherent 50%+ about teamplay and coordination. You are citing the achievements of a single player on solo ladder. Chu climbed solo ladder, sure. But from the side of teamplay/coordination, there's a near limitless skill-cap with regard to coordinating 5 people playing together correctly and in tune with one another.
This is precisely analogous to the argument that macro is simplified to the point of triviality in SC2--which is true. Compared to SC1 where macro is a huge mechanical skill (where players even at the top level can demonstrate great skill at "clicking quickly between buildings"), macro in SC2 is easy--"perfect" macro is nothing special anymore. People will argue that you can "put that APM toward other things" and that it "increases the emphasis on strategy", but that's pretty much the exact same argument with de-emphasized mechanics/individual play in LoL--and they're equally full of shit.
On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:
The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team.
Same deal here. Should anyone give a shit about solo ladder and 1v1s in a teamplay based game? No more than anyone should care about macro and clicking on buildings in a "strategy" game anyway.
|
On July 11 2011 06:36 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:33 rabidch wrote:On July 11 2011 06:25 isleyofthenorth wrote:On July 11 2011 06:22 MisterD wrote:
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option. yes the skill requirement or quality of a game is COMPLETELY irrelevant to mlg as it should be. if its logistically easily doable and has a ton(maybe more than sc2) viewers thats all that matters MLG's had a very known history of taking newer and more popular games over games that had better gameplay, anybody remember Brawl over Melee (and then Brawl was dropped in 2011)? They have to take profitability into account given the kind of organization MLG is. So people shouldn't really be beating the dead horse of "HoN/DotA takes more skill than LoL" which is a rather pointless and off topic discussion just like "BW takes more skill than SC2". Brawl was dropped because Nintendo wouldn't allow them to livestream it.
This was only one of the reasons MLG dropped Brawl, and isn't related to why they dropped Melee for Brawl.
|
On July 11 2011 06:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:
Except, and this is important; from sc2 to bw there isn't too much of a change as where there is less skill needed to play sc2 its skillcap is still so high that no one person will ever play perfectly. From Dota to LoL its such an incredibly simplification of the dota game that skill does not matter as much because there is very little you can do to improve your "position" in the game with raw skill.
I can go over the millions of little things you can do in dota to get ahead but honestly there are so many and they are so varied that even after years of playing the genre I am 100% certain that I am not aware of everything and that alone proves my point. I can honestly say that dota's skill cap is entirely unreachable at a personal level, and not only is it unreachable no one yet is even close.
There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware).
I just hate to see games that aren't strong competitive titles get positions in the most prestigious tournaments we have to offer in NA as it surely stifles the strong titles from edging in. I can't really imagine MLG picking up HoN after having LoL.
TL;DR LoL has no place as a competitive title, just by the fact it requires so little skill to play. Think competitive Tick Tack Toe when chess or go are available. These two segments illustrate where the difference in views arises. You are using mechanical skill and individual skill as a measure of the skill-cap in a game that is inherent 50%+ about teamplay and coordination. You are citing the achievements of a single player on solo ladder. Chu climbed solo ladder, sure. But from the side of teamplay/coordination, there's a near limitless skill-cap with regard to coordinating 5 people playing together correctly and in tune with one another. This is precisely analogous to the argument that macro is simplified to the point of triviality in SC2--which is true. Compared to SC1 where macro is a huge mechanical skill (where players even at the top level can demonstrate great skill at "clicking quickly between buildings"), macro in SC2 is easy--"perfect" macro is nothing special anymore. People will argue that you can "put that APM toward other things" and that it "increases the emphasis on strategy", but that's pretty much the exact same argument with de-emphasized mechanics/individual play in LoL--and they're equally full of shit. Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:
The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. Same deal here. Should anyone give a shit about solo ladder and 1v1s in a teamplay based game? No more than anyone should care about macro and clicking on buildings in a "strategy" game anyway.
The only problem with all of this is that Heroes of Newerth and DotA are team based games too, so they have all of that involved as well, the "near-limitless skillcap" isn't that limitless and if anything it's present in HoN and DotA as well with individual skill shining through clearer also. The argument you're making would be more applicable if someone went from SC2 to LoL and go high up on the solo ladder since on is a solo game and the other is a team based game, but that's not applicable between HoN and LoL.
How does the comparison from BW to SC2 hold up in the regard you're using, sure you can say "You can use that extra APM for other things and eventually we'll see that", for SC2, but how is this applicable between LoL and HoN, there literally is only so much the players can do with one character when they're limited so heavily, particularly in the laning phase.
|
On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team.
While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example.
|
On July 11 2011 06:25 isleyofthenorth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:22 MisterD wrote:
why do all of you whine about how bad LoL is? That's just completely irrelevant! They play smash'em up games at MLG ffs xD LoL gets a ton of viewers, so MLG includes it. End of discussion. There is absolutely no point in arguing about what game would be more uber pro or skilled or whatever. If it doesn't attract nearly as much people, its not an option. yes the skill requirement or quality of a game is COMPLETELY irrelevant to mlg as it should be. if its logistically easily doable and has a ton(maybe more than sc2) viewers thats all that matters
well shadowrun was on the circuit and got taken off because it wasn't bringing in the viewers. But since shadowrun was much more competitive doesn't mean Halo doesn't take skill. They didn't stay on Halo 1 because it takes more skill. Games aren't just about individual skill anymore man its about teamwork. And if league of legends brings in the fans and I bet the team who has the best teamwork wins everytime.
|
On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered fairly low.
|
Solo que in LoL is completely irrelevant to skill. It is like Counter-Strike. It does not matter how good you are as a player, working as a team is what mostly matters.
And what I see from this thread, it seems like /v/ with regulation. A large sense of elitism for you games.
|
On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example.
Eh i'm gonna have to disagree, most of the player base is not even ranked above 1200. Sure it's not particularly high, but a 1700 should be decent at worst at the game. It's like Diamond in SC2, sure it's not impressive at all, and the skill level is "low". But compared to the vast majority, your way up there probably top 1% of players is 1700+, maybe even better than that actually.
|
On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low.
1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player.
Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low.
You're misinterpreting what he's saying. Yes the ladder starts at 1200, just like SC2's ladder starts at bronze and ICCup starts at D. Where the ladder starts has nothing to do with how good people are at a given point on the ladder. People know perfectly well that 1700 isn't that good.
A 1700 getting trashed in HoN is just like a platinum SC2 player getting trashed at D- ICCup. It tells you nothing about the relative skill requirements of the games, only the relative skill/size of the playerbases.
|
On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered fairly low.
1700 is mid/high at best
high starts at 2k-2.1k
|
On July 11 2011 07:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low.
You're misinterpreting what he's saying. Yes the ladder starts at 1200, just like SC2's ladder starts at bronze and ICCup starts at D. Where the ladder starts has nothing to do with how good people are at a given point on the ladder. People know perfectly well that 1700 isn't that good. A 1700 getting trashed in HoN is just like a platinum SC2 player getting trashed at D- ICCup. It tells you nothing about the relative skill requirements of the games, only the relative skill/size of the playerbases.
Pretty much this. I'm high diamond in SC2, probably masters if I played more, and I consider myself like...low or low-mid skill. It's a scale based on competitive play, a mid skill team should be able to win or place in CAL-O.
|
On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different.
Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the term.
|
I love League of Legends, I'm sad I didn't start playing it earlier 
|
On July 11 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 07:15 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 07:11 Mordiford wrote:On July 11 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:On July 11 2011 06:19 Ruscour wrote:On July 11 2011 06:09 ak1knight wrote:On July 11 2011 05:59 JohnQPublic wrote:On July 10 2011 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 10 2011 05:21 nathangonmad wrote:
Not to sound negative and bring up an old argument. But I really don't see the attraction of LoL. It just seems to me like a Dota with not as much skill req. You could oversimplify SC2 the same way--that it's "BW with not as much of a skill req." But SC2 and LoL are much better to sell esports on because they're more accessible, and draw much better viewership/sponsorship. There is a player from the Dota/HoN scene known as Chu. He is widely considered the best HoN player even though he isn't even active half the time. For money or other reasons he decided to switch over to LoL for a while and within like a month and a half he was ranked #1 in LoL and held it for a few weeks. I think this basically illustrates my point perfectly, Chu who is great at HON and less so at Dota moves on to LoL for a very limited amount of time and already out skills 99.999% of LoL players. The reverse transition would never happen (and a few people have tried but none of the top LoL players that I'm aware). Great HoN player becomes great LoL player? You don't say! That's like saying SC2 isn't competitive because BW pros like Boxer and July can come over to SC2 and do well. The main point is that the reverse transition is impossible. I have a friend who is 1700 ELO in LoL that gets destroyed in HoN, I played 1v1 mid to practice in both HoN and LoL and I win every time as a mid-high level HoN player. It's a different skillset, I don't know how to explain it, but the lack of deny really lowers the bar in LoL. It is similar to BW -> SC2, however SC2 at least has skill involved at a high level, whereas with the proper guidance any random could play seriously for a month and have the appropriate skill to play on a pro team. While I don't think you're entirely wrong, I also want to point out that 1700 is probably mid or low-mid for LoL, to put it in DotA terms. 1500 is low, low low. So yeah, a friend who's not as good as you in his respective game switches games and gets owned, not a great example. I'm not sure what you're saying, but I think you're mistaken. League of Legends' Elo starts at 1200 so 1700 is quite high, even now, while HoN starts at 1500 so that's considered quite fairly low. 1700 is not high, just because it's higher than where you start. The skill curve of every game is such that there are a whole lot of low-skill players, and not very many high-skill ones. DotA uses its own system where it labels players between low-high skill, with 90% of the playerbase being low or mid-low skill. He's using DotA terms, so I'm correcting him. Players don't start playing well until around 1800-1900, which is why I consider that the cutoff for mid or mid-high, where you can start considering being a competitive player. Again, in DotA terms, there are very few players who can be considered "high" skill, and if you are high skill then most people will know who you are. High skill in LoL would be limited to only the very top teams, and probably many of the players who traveled to DH would not even be considered high skill for LoL. If you didn't play DotA, your definition of high skill is different. Oh alright, I think I see what you're saying now, but even so, doesn't that suggest that most of the skill in DotA or HoN is distributed with defined tiers while as you suggest for LoL, only the absolute tip-top players are even worth mention as being good, with even the tournament level players not qualifying for the terms.
I don't follow HoN so I can't comment, but it's the same in LoL and DotA. There are many top DotA teams where not all 5 players are high skill, they'll have a guy playing support who isn't individually very good but he works incredibly well with the team and knows what to do. Of course all top carries are gosu high skill. LoL is slightly different since you can't win games off the back of one or two mechanically amazing players. A team of 5 mediocre players can do incredibly well if they have good teamwork, so, it's really just a different game. If you want to see someone play LoL at a ridiculously high mechanical level, watch Fnatic.Shushei's stream. That guy plays LoL like it's his bitch.
|
i see how you SC2 guys feel, but this time, you guys are playing the role as the elitist. What bunch of hypocrites we all are :l
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
