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Riot have their hearts in the right place, but it goes without saying that hero balance in the game as well other technical aspects are holding it back and they are going to punch themselves in the face when they realize that just maybe that 43rd Teemo skin wasn't the best time investment and it gives more time for DOTA to prepare.
I'd like to point out that the skins are the ONLY way riot have guaranteed of making money. Every other part of the game is available F2P given enough time. Skins are the key way they get people to spend some money, and once you've spent some money the idiot's paradox kicks in.
"you spend a little money on the game, and go on playing. Now, things get boring and you could just give up, but that would mean the game is worthless. Which means you spent money on something worthless, which only an idiot would do. You are, of course, not an idiot, so the game is obviously worth something, so you put a bit more money in to get the latest paid content just to prove the point. Repeat ad nauseam"
Summarised from a TED games designer speech.
Having money means they can afford to send their designers to tournaments, fund prize pools and production value and, most importantly, HIRE PEOPLE DEDICATED TO MAKING THE GAME BETTER FOR THE 0.1% OF PEOPLE WHO PLAY THE GAME COMPETITIVELY.
If you don't have the big audience, then you can't afford to support a progaming scene's balancing requirements because it won't bring in enough new players via introduction through progaming/interest in it to justify the cost.
This goes doubly so for LoL's F2P model because the large part of the audience that watches progames and plays casually may be tempted to buy the fancy new champion or skin they see in a progame, whereas in traditional games once the spectator has bought the box the developer doesn't see a further dime from them for the duration of the game's life, while riot's cashbox will just keep on growing.
It's funny, but every time I look harder at what riot is doing it makes more and more sense and I'm more and more impressed with just how baller their model is.
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I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around..
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On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around..
The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/
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On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/
If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon.
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I just cant believe that LoL is taking off competitively... HoN is just so much more polished, balanced and was made for competitive gaming, when LoL is just... the name says it all
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On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the average LoL user has paid more on it than the average HoN user has on HoN. It's a pretty brilliant marketing strategy. Props to them, though, for doing it that way.
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More exposure for MLG can only be good I guess, as long as it doesnt bring the rotten community which's tied to DotA-like games to the SC2 scene...
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On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon.
Yeah S2 needs to give HoN for free. That's the only way to get more people interest in HoN. HoN's player base has been stale for a long time now.
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On July 11 2011 00:02 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon. Yeah S2 needs to give HoN for free. That's the only way to get more people interest in HoN. HoN's player base has been stale for a long time now.
At this point its prolly too late for HoN...its too good a game to be free to play but not good enough to be worth 20$. Maybe cut the price to 5-10$....but with LoL having so much of the player base I don't think it will make a difference. You go on HoN and there's like 10k players compared to like a million for LoL...S2 just got outplayed by Riot on this one. Best thing to do is wait for Dota2.
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good move by MLG, i hope this opens a lot of LoL eyes to the SC2 scene though, thats my upside of this news. i hope sc players dont switch to LoL cas im biased and i think sc2 is the real deal xD
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On July 11 2011 00:08 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 00:02 canikizu wrote:On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon. Yeah S2 needs to give HoN for free. That's the only way to get more people interest in HoN. HoN's player base has been stale for a long time now. At this point its prolly too late for HoN...its too good a game to be free to play but not good enough to be worth 20$. Maybe cut the price to 5-10$....but with LoL having so much of the player base I don't think it will make a difference. You go on HoN and there's like 10k players compared to like a million for LoL...S2 just got outplayed by Riot on this one. Best thing to do is wait for Dota2.
S2 is unfortunately stuck with HoN in an awkward position of trying to be too hardcore/competitive+too expensive for a mass audience, combined with the fact that DotA 2 is on the horizon. They are in a position where there is literally nothing they can do to keep their game alive, and it's really unfortunate. I don't think making it free at this point is even going to matter because DotA 2 is coming soon, it's just too little too late.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On July 11 2011 00:02 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon. Yeah S2 needs to give HoN for free. That's the only way to get more people interest in HoN. HoN's player base has been stale for a long time now.
They could give it out for free, but then they don't really have a business model anymore. LoL was designed to be f2p with microtransactions whereas you get everything in HoN once you bought it. Riot has to come up with new heroes/skins to get more money from the players - could you imagine the backlash from HoN players who paid for the game already if S2 added microtransactions?
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Good for MLG, good for LoL, good for E-Sports. It's a hugely popular game that the developers continue to change, fix, update, and they try to market it to E-Sports as well. Developers taking an interesting in the scene to encourage participation and viewership is great.
When Carmac was talking about it on Live On Three last week he made the point that means the most... it doesn't matter if you don't like a game... it's if there is a budding scene behind it with a good player base then those are the most important factors. LoL has that. Some people don't like it or prefer other games, that's fine. But that doesn't mean the people who like or play LoL are wrong.
If that were true, nobody here should talk about SC2 and go back to BW.
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On July 10 2011 03:45 Kisra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 03:41 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 10 2011 03:40 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Another great move by MLG. More than half of the unique viewers of MLG tuned in for Starcraft. Imagine if LoL was in the equation.
I sure hope they're prepared for the large influx of LoL viewers. No one wants to see a repeat of Dallas. QFT. Who will they have as casters though? Phreak tends to cast everything, Riot is happy to ship him all over. I'd love to see TreeEskimo sent with him to cast it, he knows his stuff and is pretty good to listen to :o
I hope we get Phreak and TreeEskimo, they are really good casters. Rivington and Zenon arent bad either. 
On July 10 2011 16:28 StyLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:26 shawster wrote:On July 10 2011 15:49 JBright wrote:On July 10 2011 15:25 Ansinjunger wrote:
Do high level profession matches of LoL or DotA have situations where a defending team that can't farm nearly as much money can make a comeback? I've obviously had such comebacks in pubs, but that's because pub players are cocky (me included) and make rash or stupid moves all the time. I don't know how really high level games play out, but I feel that the way they should play out is that one team basically gets an insurmountable income advantage, due to map control where one team fears to move out because the other is basically stronger in a straight up fight. Or do I simply not experience a high number of very close team battles in pubs simply because there's always one player bad enough to do bad things like chasing, not helping, or being a bad farmer, etc.?
That's a small issue i have with DotA, though, and I hope the following issue is less a problem with LoL, as I want to try it out, but it's also a reason I have a hard time wanting to support a competitive DotA scene. That reason is that the DotA community (from a pub perspective) is an absolute joke. In my 3,000ish ladder games (2k solo 1k team), I've probably been BM'd about 20 times. In my 7 years of DotA allstars (since version 3.2j, yup), I've seen BM as well as a lot of crying and whining in about 90% of all games. Yes, I've contributed somewhat, although I generally defend myself explaining to my ally why he got killed and why even if I helped it was a bad decision, and rarely do I go on the attack unprovoked, and I find trash talking almost entirely distasteful. Yet these are the linchpins, the hallmarks of going onto bnet and acting "big." I've seen some people who seem to have an entire routine worked out, including many people with real or "for the lulz" racial vendettas. The worst by comparison I've experienced on SC2 is that a lot of people like a certain portrait (no, I haven't watched Destiny's stream).
Is this possibly unfair to LoL or good mannered players at the top of the DotA/LoL scenes? Of course it's possible. But perhaps that explains my and some other people's skepticism regarding LoL, although I've noticed a lot of people simply saying that LoL is too easy compared to DotA. That doesn't rule out those like me who just feel that genre is currently too bad mannered compared to SC2. I hope LoL proves me wrong, and I'm actually interested in trying out it and HoN (I actually only found out in the last couple weeks those are dota spin-offs). But my years of DotA really put me on guard for a "shining well-mannered" experience in anything DotA related.
I'm not against all BM, Idra, MC (both of whom are really quite lovable, after all), but the garbage I've endured online (@DotA) is not how I'd like e-sports to be presented to any newcomers. There's times I want to show my parents/friends how awesome SC2 is, and there's times I don't want them reading the chat when I'm playing DotA, including things I've said.
Sorry this post is part of a somewhat bigger discussion and in spite of my fears, I'm actually optimistic about LoL at MLG, as long as SC2 remains main stage <3. Doesn't the defending team have a easier time farming up? The minion waves are pushing towards your base, so you get safer access to them; the leading team will have better control of the jungle and the buffs. A lot of the tournament-level games are usually pretty low on kills, so one good teamfight can really bring a team back.It all really comes down to communication and coordination. I haven't seen too much outward BM from the top players at the few big tournaments. They might argue amongst teammates on vent or something, but rarely anything go on chat. Riot knows these games are broadcasted and they probably talked to the players beforehand for Dreamhack/WCG. And since LoL is easier compared to DotA/HoN, there are a lot more people who play it casually and there tend to be less ragers.. There will always be assholes in every multiplayer game, but I think LoL has a smaller percentage of them compared to other DotA-like games. naw it's way worse being on defense. you can't ward since you're stuck in base, and you can't do dragon/baron/anything(even your own buffs if they ward hard) since the reason you're stuck in base in the first place is cuz you're weaker. but if you have a strong lategame it may be viable to turtle. riot decided it needed to create action by putting in npcs that give buffs/exp/gold when you kill them. they're in the jungle. if you're defending you have like 20% chance less of winning a teamfight(not when next to tower) because of the extra buffs/exp/gold. but at the same time if the team on offense fucks up they give all the buffs away(except baron). not dying in lol is so crucial that it's what kills aggression. if 1 guy dies they take dragon. after that they have a big advantage, not just 1 kill. after the same team gets 3 more kills it's almost over. the other team has to resort to hard defense since that team has taken another dragon, their buffs and has gotten a tower as well probably. also with summoner spells it's impossible to gank anycompetent player. it's ironic. the philosphy behind lol was to encourage action, you get more gold by killing players than killing creeps(people just farm all game), you don't lose gold when you die(encourages noobs/casuals) and buffs promote action (promotes safety as well). of course at low levels the game is fun as hell because everyone just blows aka hour long turtlefests. sort of lame for an esport.
If turtlefests are such a bad eSport shouldn't you be hating Starcraft too?
Some games people sit and macro nonstop for 20+ minutes and noone even attacks the other player except for the occassional drops.
All LoL games arent turtlefests, something tells me you just made a uninformed opinion cause you saw a single professional LoL game where they didn't tower dive all the time.
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Hon didnt have enough publicity.
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Awesome move by MLG, really trying to make eSports grow as a whole
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As much as I think that HoN, LoL, Dota, w.e are terrible games I gotta say that I am not unhappy that the game is getting success in an Esports aspect. I have a lot of friends that play LoL specifically and with its inclusion into IEM and now MLG the chance that they will be exposed to what we all have already come to know and enjoy. Live Esports Events.
One of my friends even watches Sc2 now! No he doesn't play and every time he has tried at my house it's be bad lol BUT the guy loves watching SC2! It's so awesome to be able to sit down with a REAL LIFE friend that you've know most of your life and take turns jumping up and down yelling at a monitor :D
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On July 11 2011 00:45 KinosJourney2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 03:45 Kisra wrote:On July 10 2011 03:41 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 10 2011 03:40 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Another great move by MLG. More than half of the unique viewers of MLG tuned in for Starcraft. Imagine if LoL was in the equation.
I sure hope they're prepared for the large influx of LoL viewers. No one wants to see a repeat of Dallas. QFT. Who will they have as casters though? Phreak tends to cast everything, Riot is happy to ship him all over. I'd love to see TreeEskimo sent with him to cast it, he knows his stuff and is pretty good to listen to :o I hope we get Phreak and TreeEskimo, they are really good casters. Rivington and Zenon arent bad either. Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 16:28 StyLeD wrote:On July 10 2011 16:26 shawster wrote:On July 10 2011 15:49 JBright wrote:On July 10 2011 15:25 Ansinjunger wrote:
Do high level profession matches of LoL or DotA have situations where a defending team that can't farm nearly as much money can make a comeback? I've obviously had such comebacks in pubs, but that's because pub players are cocky (me included) and make rash or stupid moves all the time. I don't know how really high level games play out, but I feel that the way they should play out is that one team basically gets an insurmountable income advantage, due to map control where one team fears to move out because the other is basically stronger in a straight up fight. Or do I simply not experience a high number of very close team battles in pubs simply because there's always one player bad enough to do bad things like chasing, not helping, or being a bad farmer, etc.?
That's a small issue i have with DotA, though, and I hope the following issue is less a problem with LoL, as I want to try it out, but it's also a reason I have a hard time wanting to support a competitive DotA scene. That reason is that the DotA community (from a pub perspective) is an absolute joke. In my 3,000ish ladder games (2k solo 1k team), I've probably been BM'd about 20 times. In my 7 years of DotA allstars (since version 3.2j, yup), I've seen BM as well as a lot of crying and whining in about 90% of all games. Yes, I've contributed somewhat, although I generally defend myself explaining to my ally why he got killed and why even if I helped it was a bad decision, and rarely do I go on the attack unprovoked, and I find trash talking almost entirely distasteful. Yet these are the linchpins, the hallmarks of going onto bnet and acting "big." I've seen some people who seem to have an entire routine worked out, including many people with real or "for the lulz" racial vendettas. The worst by comparison I've experienced on SC2 is that a lot of people like a certain portrait (no, I haven't watched Destiny's stream).
Is this possibly unfair to LoL or good mannered players at the top of the DotA/LoL scenes? Of course it's possible. But perhaps that explains my and some other people's skepticism regarding LoL, although I've noticed a lot of people simply saying that LoL is too easy compared to DotA. That doesn't rule out those like me who just feel that genre is currently too bad mannered compared to SC2. I hope LoL proves me wrong, and I'm actually interested in trying out it and HoN (I actually only found out in the last couple weeks those are dota spin-offs). But my years of DotA really put me on guard for a "shining well-mannered" experience in anything DotA related.
I'm not against all BM, Idra, MC (both of whom are really quite lovable, after all), but the garbage I've endured online (@DotA) is not how I'd like e-sports to be presented to any newcomers. There's times I want to show my parents/friends how awesome SC2 is, and there's times I don't want them reading the chat when I'm playing DotA, including things I've said.
Sorry this post is part of a somewhat bigger discussion and in spite of my fears, I'm actually optimistic about LoL at MLG, as long as SC2 remains main stage <3. Doesn't the defending team have a easier time farming up? The minion waves are pushing towards your base, so you get safer access to them; the leading team will have better control of the jungle and the buffs. A lot of the tournament-level games are usually pretty low on kills, so one good teamfight can really bring a team back.It all really comes down to communication and coordination. I haven't seen too much outward BM from the top players at the few big tournaments. They might argue amongst teammates on vent or something, but rarely anything go on chat. Riot knows these games are broadcasted and they probably talked to the players beforehand for Dreamhack/WCG. And since LoL is easier compared to DotA/HoN, there are a lot more people who play it casually and there tend to be less ragers.. There will always be assholes in every multiplayer game, but I think LoL has a smaller percentage of them compared to other DotA-like games. naw it's way worse being on defense. you can't ward since you're stuck in base, and you can't do dragon/baron/anything(even your own buffs if they ward hard) since the reason you're stuck in base in the first place is cuz you're weaker. but if you have a strong lategame it may be viable to turtle. riot decided it needed to create action by putting in npcs that give buffs/exp/gold when you kill them. they're in the jungle. if you're defending you have like 20% chance less of winning a teamfight(not when next to tower) because of the extra buffs/exp/gold. but at the same time if the team on offense fucks up they give all the buffs away(except baron). not dying in lol is so crucial that it's what kills aggression. if 1 guy dies they take dragon. after that they have a big advantage, not just 1 kill. after the same team gets 3 more kills it's almost over. the other team has to resort to hard defense since that team has taken another dragon, their buffs and has gotten a tower as well probably. also with summoner spells it's impossible to gank anycompetent player. it's ironic. the philosphy behind lol was to encourage action, you get more gold by killing players than killing creeps(people just farm all game), you don't lose gold when you die(encourages noobs/casuals) and buffs promote action (promotes safety as well). of course at low levels the game is fun as hell because everyone just blows aka hour long turtlefests. sort of lame for an esport. If turtlefests are such a bad eSport shouldn't you be hating Starcraft too? Some games people sit and macro nonstop for 20+ minutes and noone even attacks the other player except for the occassional drops. All LoL games arent turtlefests, something tells me you just made a uninformed opinion cause you saw a single professional LoL game where they didn't tower dive all the time.
I'll point out several things that make a losing team in LoL quite capable of coming back
First, empirical evidence - top teams don't GG when they're pushed back to the base but still have some towers up. (This is because of reasons 2 and 3 and possibly other reasons I didn't think of)
Second, if you're behind, but you win a teamfight decisively and ace or near-ace the other team with significantly less losses, suddenly you're in a position where your team can swiftly get back into the game - or, depending on the game - win it right there from your previously disadvantaged position.
Third, the gold gained from breaking kill streaks helps feed into that kind of feedback loop, giving another way for a disadvantaged team to get back into the game.
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A good move by MLG, LoL has become so big. Personally, I started playing LoL just recently, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Finally I can watch LoL tournaments and know what hero does what. 
Also, coming from a DotA background myself, I'd probably switch to HoN if it was free and had a comparable player base, but until then I'll stick to LoL.
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EPT
