EPTmore than cod, at least.
League Of Legends going to be added to MLG Raleigh - Page 9
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brazenraven
Romania122 Posts
more than cod, at least. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On July 10 2011 11:55 wonderwall wrote: Lol has some solid gameplay and a massive playerbase to draw upon. It seems like they'd need a few more basic things to make it competitively viable though. Stuff like -A dedicated spectator mode with the ability to swap perspectives -A pause function -A replay function i can imagine some LoL teams gonna be mad their strategies are going to be fully fleshed out eventually | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
On July 10 2011 14:25 brazenraven wrote: incidentally, does anyone know why wow got cut? i kinda liked it. more than cod, at least. the expansion came out right before MLG dallas 2010, so they felt it was better to postpone the yearly finals because of how much the expansion changes the game. those finals have still not been played. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On July 10 2011 14:14 Mordiford wrote: The game is designed around the lack of a deny system so obviously if you suddenly added a creep denying mechanics, however, the existence of this mechanic does make the laning phase in DotA and HoN more active and creates a direct competition between the players in the lane, particularly the solo lane. The laning phase in League of Legends is ridiculously passive and this is basically a consequence of design, games can often go 10 or more minutes without a single death, particularly since everyone runs Flash. I assume you saw WCG and not dreamhack, since dreamhack was anything but passive compared to a slugfest like WCG. And flash adds A LOT of good things as well to the game, dont act like it's a bad thing since alot of champions dont benefit nearly as much as others do | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 10 2011 14:46 Iplaythings wrote: I assume you saw WCG and not dreamhack, since dreamhack was anything but passive compared to a slugfest like WCG. And flash adds A LOT of good things as well to the game, dont act like it's a bad thing since alot of champions dont benefit nearly as much as others do The games I saw had a handful of kills and very lane oriented early games with a lot of passivity early on, the average kills for each game was pretty low as well. I watched both WCG and quite a bit of Dreamhack, they were both quite disappointing. And I'm not exaggerating when I say everyone runs Flash, sure some champions don't benefit as much as others but that's irrelevant when there are many games where literally every player is running Flash. It hurts the game more than it helps in my opinion because of how wide-spead it's usage is and how much better it is than other summoner spells, there's almost no point in going in for an early kill since Flash can easily fix positioning screw ups. | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
I think flash definately needs to be removed. Its probably the most poisonous aspect of gameplay atm, but i see why riot has such a hard time doing it because it just creates a balance nightmare. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:03 Hakker wrote: problem with flash is that so many champions rely on it to be useful. Without flash Janna/Alistar/malz/fiddle/virtually any ranged ad would be SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed. With the way gap closers are it would be pretty much unviable to play any ranged carry besides corki if flash were removed. I think flash definately needs to be removed. Its probably the most poisonous aspect of gameplay atm, but i see why riot has such a hard time doing it because it just creates a balance nightmare. I feel like there are a lot of fundamental designs and game mechanics that are kind of stupid and a detriment to the game but it presents an even greater challenge to fix them because it would mean fundamentally altering the game which obviously creates a huge balance issue. Overall, I just don't think the game is quite there for competitive play, but it has a huge following so it'll probably do well at MLG. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 10 2011 14:23 Mordiford wrote: I don't know, I think depends on what you really consider "decently high", that's a pretty vague term. High enough that people at the top are still getting better at the game, and high enough that skill differentiation between teams of different skill levels is fairly good. Those are the two relevant issues with the skill-curve--do we hit a point where people playing "better" stops mattering, and do good players beat worse players often enough to represent the skill difference? The answer to both of those is still "yes" with LoL, so any other subjective assessments of how "hard" a game is are irrelevant. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:10 TheYango wrote: High enough that people at the top are still getting better at the game, and high enough that skill differentiation between teams of different skill levels is fairly good. Those are the two relevant issues with the skill-curve--do we hit a point where people stop getting better, and do the better players usually win fairly often? Both are true with LoL, so any other subjective assessments of how "hard" a game is are irrelevant. I don't know if we've seen enough play to really say if players at the top are still getting better to be honest, I watched WCG and then watched Dreamhack and it seemed like the level of play was the same, just with different strategies because of the forced metagame changes as a result of Riot's addition of new champions, power-creep and balance changes. Also, from the level of competitive play we've seen so far, I don't know if the better players really do win, but there were a bunch of mishaps and Dreamhack which likely changed the outcome of some games. Also, I don't know if there's really much telling who the best players are and whether they're winning over the other almost best players, most games have a level of skill differentiation where good players win over bad players, there exists some in League of Legends, but not enough to tell in that regard. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:16 Mordiford wrote: I don't know if we've seen enough play to really say if players at the top are still getting better to be honest, I watched WCG and then watched Dreamhack and it seemed like the level of play was the same, just with different strategies because of the forced metagame changes as a result of Riot's addition of new champions, power-creep and balance changes. You can pretty definitively say that the players at the top have gotten better, because CLG, the team that won WCG last year, has pretty certainly not gotten *worse*. And while they placed a pretty convincing 1st at WCG, they placed 5th at Dreamhack at an event with only 8 teams. What's more, I'm pretty sure many people will agree that watching their play, they had no real chance of beating Fnatic, who took first. It was not close. Fnatic's coordination was just *that* much better. So yes, players at the top are getting better--to the point that the team that was convincingly best in the world a year ago has almost zero chance of winning a series against the team that's the best now. On July 10 2011 15:16 Mordiford wrote: Also, from the level of competitive play we've seen so far, I don't know if the better players really do win, but there were a bunch of mishaps and Dreamhack which likely changed the outcome of some games. Also, I don't know if there's really much telling who the best players are and whether they're winning over the other almost best players, most games have a level of skill differentiation where good players win over bad players, there exists some in League of Legends, but not enough to tell in that regard. IMO pretty much the only unexpected result of the tournament was that of EG vs Fnatic, and that was because of the disconnect (which, admittedly, was a complete farce). In most of the other games, the team that won was pretty noticeably the team that played better. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
That's a small issue i have with DotA, though, and I hope the following issue is less a problem with LoL, as I want to try it out, but it's also a reason I have a hard time wanting to support a competitive DotA scene. That reason is that the DotA community (from a pub perspective) is an absolute joke. In my 3,000ish ladder games (2k solo 1k team), I've probably been BM'd about 20 times. In my 7 years of DotA allstars (since version 3.2j, yup), I've seen BM as well as a lot of crying and whining in about 90% of all games. Yes, I've contributed somewhat, although I generally defend myself explaining to my ally why he got killed and why even if I helped it was a bad decision, and rarely do I go on the attack unprovoked, and I find trash talking almost entirely distasteful. Yet these are the linchpins, the hallmarks of going onto bnet and acting "big." I've seen some people who seem to have an entire routine worked out, including many people with real or "for the lulz" racial vendettas. The worst by comparison I've experienced on SC2 is that a lot of people like a certain portrait (no, I haven't watched Destiny's stream). Is this possibly unfair to LoL or good mannered players at the top of the DotA/LoL scenes? Of course it's possible. But perhaps that explains my and some other people's skepticism regarding LoL, although I've noticed a lot of people simply saying that LoL is too easy compared to DotA. That doesn't rule out those like me who just feel that genre is currently too bad mannered compared to SC2. I hope LoL proves me wrong, and I'm actually interested in trying out it and HoN (I actually only found out in the last couple weeks those are dota spin-offs). But my years of DotA really put me on guard for a "shining well-mannered" experience in anything DotA related. I'm not against all BM, Idra, MC (both of whom are really quite lovable, after all), but the garbage I've endured online (@DotA) is not how I'd like e-sports to be presented to any newcomers. There's times I want to show my parents/friends how awesome SC2 is, and there's times I don't want them reading the chat when I'm playing DotA, including things I've said. Sorry this post is part of a somewhat bigger discussion and in spite of my fears, I'm actually optimistic about LoL at MLG, as long as SC2 remains main stage <3. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
While CoD is fun to mess around in casually, I really don't think it deserves to be played competitively and it should be removed asap. Just not a good competitive game imo. If they keep LoL and dump CoD then they will have Halo, SC2, LoL, and GoW3 for the 2012 circuit it looks like. Not to mention the possible addition of a fighting game at any point. And then there are still other games that could eventually be added, should be interesting. | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
On July 10 2011 14:25 brazenraven wrote: incidentally, does anyone know why wow got cut? i kinda liked it. more than cod, at least. Blizzard decided not to update their spectator client for cata so they couldn't play the finals. Besides that, the competitive scene has basically completely evaporated since Star2 was released, the teams stagnated. viewer counts were embarrassingly low after they lost mmo-champion, and iirc there were only ever like 5 live spectators for the events lol. To top it all off, blizzards utter disregard for the pvp community pretty much nailed the coffin in wows esport career | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:25 Ansinjunger wrote: Do high level profession matches of LoL or DotA have situations where a defending team that can't farm nearly as much money can make a comeback? I've obviously had such comebacks in pubs, but that's because pub players are cocky (me included) and make rash or stupid moves all the time. I don't know how really high level games play out, but I feel that the way they should play out is that one team basically gets an insurmountable income advantage, due to map control where one team fears to move out because the other is basically stronger in a straight up fight. Or do I simply not experience a high number of very close team battles in pubs simply because there's always one player bad enough to do bad things like chasing, not helping, or being a bad farmer, etc.? That's a small issue i have with DotA, though, and I hope the following issue is less a problem with LoL, as I want to try it out, but it's also a reason I have a hard time wanting to support a competitive DotA scene. That reason is that the DotA community (from a pub perspective) is an absolute joke. In my 3,000ish ladder games (2k solo 1k team), I've probably been BM'd about 20 times. In my 7 years of DotA allstars (since version 3.2j, yup), I've seen BM as well as a lot of crying and whining in about 90% of all games. Yes, I've contributed somewhat, although I generally defend myself explaining to my ally why he got killed and why even if I helped it was a bad decision, and rarely do I go on the attack unprovoked, and I find trash talking almost entirely distasteful. Yet these are the linchpins, the hallmarks of going onto bnet and acting "big." I've seen some people who seem to have an entire routine worked out, including many people with real or "for the lulz" racial vendettas. The worst by comparison I've experienced on SC2 is that a lot of people like a certain portrait (no, I haven't watched Destiny's stream). Is this possibly unfair to LoL or good mannered players at the top of the DotA/LoL scenes? Of course it's possible. But perhaps that explains my and some other people's skepticism regarding LoL, although I've noticed a lot of people simply saying that LoL is too easy compared to DotA. That doesn't rule out those like me who just feel that genre is currently too bad mannered compared to SC2. I hope LoL proves me wrong, and I'm actually interested in trying out it and HoN (I actually only found out in the last couple weeks those are dota spin-offs). But my years of DotA really put me on guard for a "shining well-mannered" experience in anything DotA related. I'm not against all BM, Idra, MC (both of whom are really quite lovable, after all), but the garbage I've endured online (@DotA) is not how I'd like e-sports to be presented to any newcomers. There's times I want to show my parents/friends how awesome SC2 is, and there's times I don't want them reading the chat when I'm playing DotA, including things I've said. Sorry this post is part of a somewhat bigger discussion and in spite of my fears, I'm actually optimistic about LoL at MLG, as long as SC2 remains main stage <3. Doesn't the defending team have a easier time farming up? The minion waves are pushing towards your base, so you get safer access to them; the leading team will have better control of the jungle and the buffs. A lot of the tournament-level games are usually pretty low on kills, so one good teamfight can really bring a team back.It all really comes down to communication and coordination. I haven't seen too much outward BM from the top players at the few big tournaments. They might argue amongst teammates on vent or something, but rarely anything go on chat. Riot knows these games are broadcasted and they probably talked to the players beforehand for Dreamhack/WCG. And since LoL is easier compared to DotA/HoN, there are a lot more people who play it casually and there tend to be less ragers.. There will always be assholes in every multiplayer game, but I think LoL has a smaller percentage of them compared to other DotA-like games. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:24 TheYango wrote: You can pretty definitively say that the players at the top have gotten better, because CLG, the team that won WCG last year, has pretty certainly not gotten *worse*. And while they placed a pretty convincing 1st at WCG, they placed 5th at Dreamhack at an event with only 8 teams. What's more, I'm pretty sure many people will agree that watching their play, they had no real chance of beating Fnatic, who took first. It was not close. Fnatic's coordination was just *that* much better. So yes, players at the top are getting better--to the point that the team that was convincingly best in the world a year ago has almost zero chance of winning a series against the team that's the best now. IMO pretty much the only unexpected result of the tournament was that of EG vs Fnatic, and that was because of the disconnect (which, admittedly, was a complete farce). In most of the other games, the team that won was pretty noticeably the team that played better. See, I don't know if one team being first at one event and 5th at the next event proves that the skill has gone up, I watched some of those games at both events and I don't really know if the team that won was playing that much better than the other team in some of those games, I mean even the players themselves seemed to attribute so much to the picks that it was ridiculous. When being interviewed, HotShotGG basically said, "Yeah, they played well and we just got totally out-picked, we tried some new strategies and it didn't really work out", when asked to elaborate he basically said the strategy was, "Going mundo" and that didn't work out. There were other players sort of suggesting that picking was pretty much super-integral which is largely because the game's skill ceiling has effectively been reached by many of these top players, so apart from royal screw-ups and major suckage, the picks are effectively the major deciding factor in my opinion, they can be overcome, but the aforementioned design issues make them a huuuge hurdle. I also remember someone cited another team's player sitting on the sidelines saying, "That's it we've won" as their last player locked in, I can't remember who it was though. Also, I don't know if CLG was convincingly the best in the world a year ago, they just knew how to farm and it was pretty apparent that that was resolved early on by other teams. I don't really recall Fnatic's coordination being that much better either, it just looked like standard League of Legends, the same stuff I've seen and played like 6 months ago, just with different champions. | ||
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Skyeye
United States6 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 10 2011 16:01 Skyeye wrote: OMFG the LoL numbers were every single person who logged in to play that day...anyone who thinks it really had 100k viewers is an idiot...how can a less popular game have more viewers than SC2...freaking morons in this world... Very convincing post, I'm glad you backed it up with sources and evidence... There are a ton of people who player League of Legends and the game had a link to the stream on their client, but I don't think it included everyone who logged in to play. Obviously if Blizzard linked to Dreamhack on the client, Starcraft may have had ludicrous numbers as well, but Riot put that in and got their reward for it. | ||
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Kyos
3 Posts
On July 10 2011 16:01 Skyeye wrote: OMFG the LoL numbers were every single person who logged in to play that day...anyone who thinks it really had 100k viewers is an idiot...how can a less popular game have more viewers than SC2...freaking morons in this world... Do you have any idea how huge LoL is? If what you say was true they'd have A LOT more viewers, stop making up random shit that's been proven wrong already. If I'm not mistaken LoL took #1 on xfire from WoW a while ago. | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
On July 10 2011 16:01 Skyeye wrote: OMFG the LoL numbers were every single person who logged in to play that day...anyone who thinks it really had 100k viewers is an idiot...how can a less popular game have more viewers than SC2...freaking morons in this world... Source? According to Xfire LoL is THE most popular pc game in the western world right now. Bigger than wow or cod. Sc2 is actually relatively low on the list. The rest of your post is so retarded it's not even worth mentioning. | ||
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