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On November 09 2010 08:32 hkfosho wrote:
guys ive been having a HUGE debate with my buddies on who's considered a better player overall: Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo? This includes comparing them individually as well as point guards... I won't voice my opinion just yet so I'll receive an honest opinion...
Rondo. Not even close in my book, Rose for all of his gifts doesn't use them effectively.
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To be an elite point guard you have to be dominant in something, and so far Rondo blows Rose out of the water:
Assists/Passing: CP3, Rondo, D-Will, Kidd, Nash (Westbrook is getting close)
Scoring: CP3, D-Will, Westbrook, Rose
Defense: Rondo, CP3
Rebounding: CP3, Rondo, Kidd, Rose, Westbrook
Game Management: Almost all of them but Rose hasn't hit this point yet, and Westbrook is getting very close
As of now, Rondo is a dominant point guard in everything but scoring. He's pretty much the consensus best player on his team since the 2008-2009 season and just absolutely destroys opposing point guards.
Rose is a great scorer and a good passer. His defense is lacking but that'll improve under Thibs. But he can't be called top tier when he isn't dominant in anything or even close to being top tier in more than one category you'd expect an elite point guard to dominate.
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All I have to say is GO ROCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YaoMing4LIFEEEE! 
Terrible start for them though 
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rondo makes everything look so smooth
rose just smashes though and dunks on people
rondo = better point gaurd
rose = better scorer
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On November 09 2010 08:51 Ace wrote:
I'd take David West if you're having efficiency concerns. But Dorrel Wright has been a god damn MONSTER so far. No idea how much longer he keeps it up but I would have held on to him over D.West unless you're already stacked and really needed the big man.
Then again now that Steph Curry is back who knows how much longer Wright can produce at the level he has been.
Only 7 points tonight. I think his baseline will be around 13-14 ppg and about 2 threes per game. He's gotten off to a hot start and it won't last much longer after wear/tear starts kicking in.
I'm a firm believer in player history 
I'd like to ask others about how marcus camby's numbers will be affected after greg oden comes back?
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On November 09 2010 11:36 royzizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 08:51 Ace wrote:
I'd take David West if you're having efficiency concerns. But Dorrel Wright has been a god damn MONSTER so far. No idea how much longer he keeps it up but I would have held on to him over D.West unless you're already stacked and really needed the big man.
Then again now that Steph Curry is back who knows how much longer Wright can produce at the level he has been. Only 7 points tonight. I think his baseline will be around 13-14 ppg and about 2 threes per game. He's gotten off to a hot start and it won't last much longer after wear/tear starts kicking in. I'm a firm believer in player history I'd like to ask others about how marcus camby's numbers will be affected after greg oden comes back?
Not a whole lot because Oden isn't exactly in shape or in the flow of things. Eventually, he'll take a piece of Camby's production but not immediately. The only problem is that the eventually process might result in another injury.
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On November 09 2010 11:36 royzizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 08:51 Ace wrote:
I'd take David West if you're having efficiency concerns. But Dorrel Wright has been a god damn MONSTER so far. No idea how much longer he keeps it up but I would have held on to him over D.West unless you're already stacked and really needed the big man.
Then again now that Steph Curry is back who knows how much longer Wright can produce at the level he has been. Only 7 points tonight. I think his baseline will be around 13-14 ppg and about 2 threes per game. He's gotten off to a hot start and it won't last much longer after wear/tear starts kicking in. I'm a firm believer in player history I'd like to ask others about how marcus camby's numbers will be affected after greg oden comes back?
He's been ice cold the past two games but he got another steal and block tonight. Monte Ellis's injury looks pretty serious so hopefully that means Wright will have to take more shots if Ellis is gonna be out.
I'm trying to offload Richard Jefferson, Deng, and Louis Williams but it seems no one in my league wants them. I need another forward who gets rebs/blocks now that Robin Lopez has proven to be garbage. I'm unsure about Blatche, I don't like West cuz he doesn't block, Bargnani doesn't rebound, Gerald Wallace is too good. Can't really think of anyone else to target.
I dropped Lopez for Bledsoe mainly for steals. Hope he can keep playing well.
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All I have to say is GO BLAZERS, it's time to go deep in the postseason this year :D
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On November 09 2010 09:38 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 08:32 hkfosho wrote:
guys ive been having a HUGE debate with my buddies on who's considered a better player overall: Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo? This includes comparing them individually as well as point guards... I won't voice my opinion just yet so I'll receive an honest opinion... Rondo. Not even close in my book, Rose for all of his gifts doesn't use them effectively.
Well I'm actually the complete opposite lol.
I think Rose is vastly superior to Rondo as a player and a point guard. I would even put rose among the upcoming players in the realm of superstardom. I'll agree, rondo is better than rose in assists and playmaking decisions, which is a HUGE factor to becoming a good point guard, but seriously look at the team rondo has compared to rose. Look at how much experience rondo was able to acquire ever since the big three came into the celtics... and then compare that to Rose's team with noah and deng as the only players considered as true "starting roster" players.
Imo, assist is the most overrated stat in the league... it relies purely on the shooter to score, which for rondo is a piece of cake considering he has kg at the post, ray allen who can spot up a three, and paul pierce who can do bits of everything. The counterargument to this would be that for them to be good scorers, the PG would obviously be distributing the ball in such a way that would give the shooters open looks... but how many of Rondo's assists are actually 'phenomenal' plays that leaves the shooter with a high % shot? Not so often, hence the majority of the value in assists are from the scorers themselves who put the ball in the basket.
Now, look at Rose and his team. Sure, rose scores more than rondo because he takes more shots but does he have 3 future hall of famers in his team? This is rose's 3rd year in the league (rondo has an extra season of experience) and he's already making plays for himself like a superstar. Just imagine the celtics with Rose as their point guard... that would be frikin nuts! And at the same time, put rondo in rose's situation with the bulls and tell me then how he's gonna dish out 15+ assists a game. I have no idea why Rose isn't getting the praise he deserves, just watch the guy play. His biggest flaws are definitely shooting and playmaking, but that all comes along through experience. I honestly think Rose and Wall will be among the top 3-4 PG after a few seasons, but we'll have to wait and see.
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assists are about drawing defenders so that the player you pass to can score, especially from a PG position, its not like he is swinging the ball and hoping ray is getting a three, no he is assessing the defense and how to attack it, he understands tempo and is able to establish it. Rose is a very fast player, and that is his true advantage, but Rondo is a more proven defender, better at pulling down boards, and great at getting players the ball in situations to score, even if his team is better, he is the glue that pulls those three opposite super stars together, the calm ray allen, the aggressive KG, and the leader by example paul pierce. If Rose could do that, im not sure, but Rondo has done it, and has proven he can bring it every single night.
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Not so often? lol ok.
When a guy is averaging double digit assists, you know he's top tier.
When a guy is just BLOWING everyone out of the water you know he's elite.
Your entire point falls apart because how do you explain Chris Paul? He made Okafor drop 26 and had Tyson Chandler being called offensively great. Great point guards make the game easy. It's as simple as that.
Rose isn't even close to being near Rondo's level. You can say Rondo got the benefit of KG and Ray during his breakout year but you can't fault him for taking that as far as he has. Are you going to explain how Rondo has become such a defensive force on the perimeter whereas Rose still hasn't put it all together? In what aspect of the game is Rose better than Rondo at besides scoring? I'd love to hear it.
If you put Rose on the Celtics watch them get eaten alive by above average point guards and pick and roll PGs. Rondo is absolutely murderous on the defensive end.
I also think rebounding is an overrated stat. It relies purely on other players missing shots.
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Can you guys create another thread for fantasy talk? I want to keep this thread purely NBA
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United States22883 Posts
On November 09 2010 15:56 Miss_Cleo wrote:
Can you guys create another thread for fantasy talk? I want to keep this thread purely NBA
I second this. I'm getting tired of seeing the fantasy chat. :/
Note: Not saying this as staff, just putting in my 2c as a user.
I would take Rose over Rondo in the last minute of a game. I'll take Rondo the other 47 though. :>
Also, I think I'll avoid going over CP3's defense again. I'll just say, stop staring at the stat sheet.
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On November 09 2010 15:40 Ace wrote:
Not so often? lol ok.
When a guy is averaging double digit assists, you know he's top tier.
When a guy is just BLOWING everyone out of the water you know he's elite.
Your entire point falls apart because how do you explain Chris Paul? He made Okafor drop 26 and had Tyson Chandler being called offensively great. Great point guards make the game easy. It's as simple as that.
Rose isn't even close to being near Rondo's level. You can say Rondo got the benefit of KG and Ray during his breakout year but you can't fault him for taking that as far as he has. Are you going to explain how Rondo has become such a defensive force on the perimeter whereas Rose still hasn't put it all together? In what aspect of the game is Rose better than Rondo at besides scoring? I'd love to hear it.
If you put Rose on the Celtics watch them get eaten alive by above average point guards and pick and roll PGs. Rondo is absolutely murderous on the defensive end.
I also think rebounding is an overrated stat. It relies purely on other players missing shots.
Yes, as a matter of fact, not so often. Sure, he draws the help defence in so that he can pass it to the open man, but that's exactly wat rose does every game, almost everytime he has the ball and guess what? His teammates can't capitalize. Deng, the major assist stacker for rose, isnt even consisten with his game. Even with all the disadvantages that rose has compared to rondo, his stats so far in the season is pretty spectacular considering he hasn't even played with boozer yet. 25ppg, and 9.8 apg, there's your double digit assittop tier player, whereas rondo has 11.1ppg, and 14.7apg. The stats alone just shows you how big of an advantage celtics has, and YET the bulls are still almost in par with them as they showed the other night in the OT loss.
Chris Paul is better than Rose and Rondo, so I don't even know why you're bringing him into the topic, not to mention he has more experience than the two. He made Okafor drop 26 in a game, so what? With that logic, I could say Rose dished out double-digit assits the game Deng got his career high.
Rose isn't even near Rondo's level? Are you for real? We're talking about Derrick Rose, first round draft pick, rookie of the year w/ 17ppg, 6apg, 4rg compared to Rondo's 6ppg, 4apg, 4rpg in his rookie debut with the Big three-less celtics... and Rose is no where near Rondo's level? You do realize that Rose is currently carrying his own team without any all-stars except maybe Joakim right? Also, you're talking like Rose's defence is bad, even though it's completely false. Rondo's defence is better, but I'm sure with the potential that Rose has, and considering the fact that Rondo has been in the league for 2 seasons more than Rose, Rose will eventually become one of the top PG defenders.
Rebounding is such a non-factor for PGs to worry about... that's for the big men to box out and draw the boards, as opposed to relying on the PG to sneak in and luckily grab a rebound...
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Rondo's better than Chris Paul in certain areas, worse in shooting, so there are certain situations where you would want Rondo over Chris Paul. Derrick Rose, while being a great athlete and a good shooter, isn't as good as Chris Paul in any area I can think of.
Derrick Rose has been about hype and promise since he entered the league. He has his flashes of brilliance, but honestly there are a lot of score first promising point guards (not known for defense), and they don't get the wins and don't have enough of an impact in the playoffs. The Lakers have always had a point guard mismatch, but somehow they don't seem to mind.
Like Derrick Rose, the bulls have high on promise and short on results the last few years. Why can't they beat out the Hawks for a top four seed? It's great they've tested teams with championship aspirations, but honestly I'd rather be the team being tested. If Rose can maintain 10 assists per game and make the Bulls the team to beat, then maybe it will be worth defending him.
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I second in keeping this thread as just NBA without the fantasy discussion. It should be done elsewhere.
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Rose is like - "Ima go try to break in the paint and see what happens"
Rondo is like - "Ima spend 10 seconds each attack and find your defense weak spot"
No more fantasy crap. Yes.
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rondo > rose.
both have horrid jumpers.
rondo is more creative, better passer, more intelligent, runs his offensive amazingly.
rondo is a better defender.
people say that rose is a better scorer than rondo... i dunno, i think if you watch the games where rondo actually takes over he is deadly. The guy gets into the paint at will just like rose.
The difference is, the celtics have a more disiplined offense, better players for rondo to pass to. Rose is forced to shoot almost every trip down the floor.
anyways, i could go all day but in short form : rondo over rose anyday
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On November 09 2010 16:57 hkfosho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 15:40 Ace wrote:
Not so often? lol ok.
When a guy is averaging double digit assists, you know he's top tier.
When a guy is just BLOWING everyone out of the water you know he's elite.
Your entire point falls apart because how do you explain Chris Paul? He made Okafor drop 26 and had Tyson Chandler being called offensively great. Great point guards make the game easy. It's as simple as that.
Rose isn't even close to being near Rondo's level. You can say Rondo got the benefit of KG and Ray during his breakout year but you can't fault him for taking that as far as he has. Are you going to explain how Rondo has become such a defensive force on the perimeter whereas Rose still hasn't put it all together? In what aspect of the game is Rose better than Rondo at besides scoring? I'd love to hear it.
If you put Rose on the Celtics watch them get eaten alive by above average point guards and pick and roll PGs. Rondo is absolutely murderous on the defensive end.
I also think rebounding is an overrated stat. It relies purely on other players missing shots. Yes, as a matter of fact, not so often. Sure, he draws the help defence in so that he can pass it to the open man, but that's exactly wat rose does every game, almost everytime he has the ball and guess what? His teammates can't capitalize. Deng, the major assist stacker for rose, isnt even consisten with his game. Even with all the disadvantages that rose has compared to rondo, his stats so far in the season is pretty spectacular considering he hasn't even played with boozer yet. 25ppg, and 9.8 apg, there's your double digit assittop tier player, whereas rondo has 11.1ppg, and 14.7apg. The stats alone just shows you how big of an advantage celtics has, and YET the bulls are still almost in par with them as they showed the other night in the OT loss. Chris Paul is better than Rose and Rondo, so I don't even know why you're bringing him into the topic, not to mention he has more experience than the two. He made Okafor drop 26 in a game, so what? With that logic, I could say Rose dished out double-digit assits the game Deng got his career high. Rose isn't even near Rondo's level? Are you for real? We're talking about Derrick Rose, first round draft pick, rookie of the year w/ 17ppg, 6apg, 4rg compared to Rondo's 6ppg, 4apg, 4rpg in his rookie debut with the Big three-less celtics... and Rose is no where near Rondo's level? You do realize that Rose is currently carrying his own team without any all-stars except maybe Joakim right? Also, you're talking like Rose's defence is bad, even though it's completely false. Rondo's defence is better, but I'm sure with the potential that Rose has, and considering the fact that Rondo has been in the league for 2 seasons more than Rose, Rose will eventually become one of the top PG defenders. Rebounding is such a non-factor for PGs to worry about... that's for the big men to box out and draw the boards, as opposed to relying on the PG to sneak in and luckily grab a rebound...
No, that's not what Rose does every game. What Rose does every game is take that shitty pull up jumper and for some one of his quickness gets to the line a stupidly low amount. Rookie statistics means what? Nothing, why? Because Rondo actually got his shit together unlike Rose.
Rebounding is a HUGE boon for PGs. You want to know why? Because they can push the offense into a fast break opportunity. They don't have to come back to the ball and then take it up the court, they can just run with it. Rondo did this A LOT last playoffs and Rose while certainly fast enough to do the same thing doesn't.
Chris Paul is better than Rose and Rondo, so I don't even know why you're bringing him into the topic, not to mention he has more experience than the two. He made Okafor drop 26 in a game, so what? With that logic, I could say Rose dished out double-digit assits the game Deng got his career high.
Let's just say Paul made both West, Okafor, and Chandler look great offensively. We aren't talking about just one incident, but the overall picture, Rose hasn't made anyone on his team look beyond what you thought was possible. Rondo has though.
Rondo over Rose, it really isn't even close and saying Rose will develop is pretty optimistic and self-defeatist as Rondo has already developed those skills while Rose hasn't obtained them.
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EPT
