NBA 2010-2011 Season - Page 131

On March 19 2011 11:02 SK.Testie wrote:
Oh, I always thought missed shots after getting fouled did show up on the stat line. Because in the box score you often see a 3-11 shooter with 4 or more FTA's.

On March 19 2011 11:10 testpat wrote:
There seems to be some confusion about the FG & FT attempts in box scores.

If the player makes the shot and is fouled, it counts as a field goal attempt & a field goal made.

If the player misses the shot and is fouled, it doesn't count as a field goal attempt.

On March 19 2011 11:31 Ace wrote:
Let me end this Derrick Rose for MVP debate right now. Like I've said a lot of it has to do with marketing for the NBA, no one wanting to admit that Rose has a ton of help, Thibs and the FA acquisitions, and the Miami hate. Derrick Rose is very good. But to say he is MVP is a lot of bullshit because MVPS are unequivocally one of the top players in the league. Rose isn't - he's just the best player on a very good team. Some stats that will end this debate:

27.2 PPG, 49.5 FG%, 10.7 FTA on 78% shooting, 6.7 APG, 5.7 RPG, 1.9 SPG, 0.8 BPG 0.2 3s per game

In fact I'll make it even better:

24.1 PPG, 47.8 FG%, 9.9 FTA on 76% shooting, 6.6 APG, 5.2 RPG, 1.6 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 0.2 3s per game

24.6 PPG, 43.8 FG%, 6.3 FTA on 84.7% shooting, 7.8 APG, 4.3 RPG, 1.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.5 3s per game

The first set is Dwayne Wade's 3rd year in the league.
The second set is Wade's 2nd year in the league.
The third set is Derrick Rose's current "MVP" year.

In his SECOND year in the league Wade was a better player than Rose and didn't even get the MVP nod. In his 3rd year he was "Hall of Fame for sure" bound. Rose's stats don't even come close. So explain to me why Derrick Rose is the MVP? He isn't carrying the team, he isn't dominating the league, and he isn't even on of the best players at his position nevertheless the league. So by stats he isn't the MVP. By who is carrying their team the most he isn't the MVP - he has much more help than Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Dirk do. That's not his fault but that throws out the "doing more with less argument". So now justify it. *drops mic*

What MVP candidate doesn't have a ton of help? LeBron plays with two other all stars, Howard plays with a pretty good cast, Nowitzki has more talent around him this year than the year he won the MVP.

Saying he shouldn't be MVP because he has a team around him is a terrible argument because each candidate has one too.

On March 19 2011 13:12 jmbthirteen wrote:
If LeBron James deserves MVP this year, he will win it. But right now there is a guy who is carrying his team to a better record and who has carried his team to victories over James and the Heat. Sure the Heat's bench is bad, but it doesn't change the fact that he plays along side another top 5 player in the league. Bosh, Wade, and James have all carried their teams to the playoffs in previous season without each other. Right now are the Heat better than the Cavs were in previous years? I'm not so sure about that. I would argue the fact that because its only LeBron, Wade and Bosh, that LeBron's stats are inflated because he has an ok supporting cast outside of those two. So what has LeBron done this year that makes him the MVP? In previous years being on the best team in the East was a huge reason why he won those MVP awards. This year he doesn't have that going for him. Derrick Rose does. Thats a HUGE impact on the award.

I do watch the games, I do watch the stats, I see how they play. Derrick Rose right now is a legit MVP winner. You give Deng way too much credit for them playing well without Noah and Boozer.

Your marketing argument is a bad one. Is it better for the NBA if Rose wins or LeBron wins? LeBron. Rose or Howard? Howard (one of, if not the most popular player in the game, all star voting shows that). He is more marketable than Dirk, I'll give you that.

How does a guy who leads the team in scoring, assists, runs the offense, has the ball in his hands more than anyone else, has played in 66 of the 68 game, not carry his team to the best record in the East? Especially when Boozer and Noah have missed over a combined 50 games this year. Thats arguably their 2nd and 3rd best players.

Derrick Rose isn't an elite scorer? Thats a joke right? He's 8th in the league in scoring. Right now if I can have Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, or Derron Williams, I am taking Derrick Rose.

When did Baron Davis, Jerry Stackhouse or Steve Francis lead their team to the best record in the conference? Or doesn't that matter at all? Oh yeah it does, its arguably the biggest reason that Rose might win MVP.

I'm not saying Rose should win MVP because I do think its a very close race between Rose, James, Dirk and Howard. But to say he doesn't belong in the discussion is well, dumb. He clearly does because he has elevated his play this year to the elite status and that has helped give his team the #1 spot in the conference while they were missing key pieces for extended periods of time.

On March 19 2011 12:45 Ace wrote:
What's retarded is your reading ability. Rose is getting the MVP mainly because of marketing - not because of his basketball talent. I used Dwayne Wade to illustrate that far better players at the same stage of their careers haven't even gotten the sniff of an MVP nod.

Seasons DO matter when it comes to comparing MVP awards. It's the entire reason you hear excuses for Rose like "well it's a weak MVP year". If Lebron James goes on to have better numbers than his 2 MVP years then not giving him the award just shows that it's not really an MVP award but a "this guy surprised us the most award".



Almost all of them do. But having a ton of help isn't why I'm knocking Rose's campaign. I'm knocking the people who say Rose is carrying the team - he isn't.

Lebron plays with 2 other All-Stars but has a shit bench(part of the reason Miami has to run unconventional lineups)
Howard plays with a terrible supporting cast. He's really that good and that team just isn't as versatile as they were before which is saying something. Of everyone he's definitely got the least help.
Dirk is playing with more talent the year he won the MVP but isn't playing with D-Rose level talent.
Rose has Noah, Boozer and Deng. 1 is an All-Star level player, 1 is an elite defensive big man that can also pass and isn't terrible on offense, and the other is an above average player for his position with elite defensive skills. Then he has an amazing bench.

So yes Rose has a lot of help, probably more than everyone else but that help has more to do with winning than Rose does. When Boozer and Noah missed games do you know what happened?

Luol Deng went ape shit and started shutting everyone down, the bench picked up, and Chicago had a large stretch of home games. A PG shooting 43% isn't carrying the team especially when he isn't an elite scorer, elite passer or elite defender. He isn't dominating at all. I guess if you want to say Derrick Rose has a big game with bad shooting percentages as 1 example of his greatness then go ahead. But in the overall scheme of things it pales in comparison to all of those other guys - they are all straight up better than him and aren't as replaceable.

Best player on the best team doesn't mean your an MVP. For someone claiming I'm making silly arguments you would be wise not to do so yourself.



Where did I say this? Please point it out. I've always, always said Derrick Rose is very good. However there is a big distinction between very good, elite, and MVP. Let the Baron Davis', Jerry Stackhouses and Steve Francis' of the past be a lesson. All of those guys were hyped up just like Derrick Rose for being very good players.

J Rich, Brandon Bass and I guess whatever, Jameer Nelson aren't terrible players. However they are not Noah, Deng and Boozer. Not even close.

Dallas IS doing well because of Kidd, Terry, and Chandler. But Dirk is infinitely more valuable to Dallas than Rose is to Chicago. Amazing how you cite Noah and Boozer missing games and Chicago winning but ignore Dallas's losing streaks with Dirk out and their win streaks with him in.

Watch the games, watch the stats, and look at how they play. Derrick Rose has the ability to improve his game to possible MVP levels in the future. But don't give him the MVP this year when he doesn't deserve it or else 3 years from now when he's REALLY good and doesn't get it you'll be scratching your head.

On March 19 2011 13:12 jmbthirteen wrote:
If LeBron James deserves MVP this year, he will win it. But right now there is a guy who is carrying his team to a better record and who has carried his team to victories over James and the Heat. Sure the Heat's bench is bad, but it doesn't change the fact that he plays along side another top 5 player in the league. Bosh, Wade, and James have all carried their teams to the playoffs in previous season without each other. Right now are the Heat better than the Cavs were in previous years? I'm not so sure about that. I would argue the fact that because its only LeBron, Wade and Bosh, that LeBron's stats are inflated because he has an ok supporting cast outside of those two. So what has LeBron done this year that makes him the MVP? In previous years being on the best team in the East was a huge reason why he won those MVP awards. This year he doesn't have that going for him. Derrick Rose does. Thats a HUGE impact on the award.

I do watch the games, I do watch the stats, I see how they play. Derrick Rose right now is a legit MVP winner. You give Deng way too much credit for them playing well without Noah and Boozer.

Your marketing argument is a bad one. Is it better for the NBA if Rose wins or LeBron wins? LeBron. Rose or Howard? Howard (one of, if not the most popular player in the game, all star voting shows that). He is more marketable than Dirk, I'll give you that.

How does a guy who leads the team in scoring, assists, runs the offense, has the ball in his hands more than anyone else, has played in 66 of the 68 game, not carry his team to the best record in the East? Especially when Boozer and Noah have missed over a combined 50 games this year. Thats arguably their 2nd and 3rd best players.

Derrick Rose isn't an elite scorer? Thats a joke right? He's 8th in the league in scoring. Right now if I can have Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, or Derron Williams, I am taking Derrick Rose.

When did Baron Davis, Jerry Stackhouse or Steve Francis lead their team to the best record in the conference? Or doesn't that matter at all? Oh yeah it does, its arguably the biggest reason that Rose might win MVP.

I'm not saying Rose should win MVP because I do think its a very close race between Rose, James, Dirk and Howard. But to say he doesn't belong in the discussion is well, dumb. He clearly does because he has elevated his play this year to the elite status and that has helped give his team the #1 spot in the conference while they were missing key pieces for extended periods of time.

On March 19 2011 13:46 testpat wrote:
A bigger reason Wade wasn't considered for MVP in his 2nd and 3rd year is shaq. Hard to give the MVP to the 2nd best player on his team.

On March 19 2011 13:30 BalliSLife wrote:
What about the fact that Chicago didn't have boozer early and Noah later on during the season? I think that's what counts in terms of carrying the team to the #1 spot in the East. I think a better question would be has there ever been an MVP who didn't have the number one team in either West or East conf?

People are overlooking that fact quite a bit and its one of the biggest arguments for Rose. Which is probably why it is being overlooked.

And defense starts at the point guard position. If your point guard isn't good on defense then other teams will have a field day because the opposing point will break your defense down so fast its not even funny. I've seen it with my Pacers all season long. Collison is a bad defender and it causes everyone to over help leaving someone open. You cannot be a good defensive team with a bad defender at the point, so yes Rose has been a huge reason the Bulls defense is so good this year.

And how are Rose's individual contributions not as impressive as I said they are? They are facts. There is absolutely nothing false about what I said. Deng, Noah, and Boozer are good players, but they aren't on Derrick Rose's level. Anyone that watches the Bulls play can tell you that.

His efficiency isn't as good as LeBron's, but he is still pretty damn efficient. It would probably be even better if Noah and Boozer were healthy all season. I think leading your team to the best record in the conference while being slightly less efficient is a better argument than more efficient on a worse team.