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On March 19 2011 14:27 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 14:24 testpat wrote:On March 19 2011 13:47 Ace wrote:On March 19 2011 13:46 testpat wrote:
A bigger reason Wade wasn't considered for MVP in his 2nd and 3rd year is shaq. Hard to give the MVP to the 2nd best player on his team. Shaq didn't even play 82 games that full season and Wade was by far the #1 on that team. Shaq being there wasn't the reason Wade wasn't mentioned. It had to do with what was going on that year plus the fact that Miami isn't a large market to begin with. @clutz: Thanks for posting that. I know "logic" doesn't make sense in an MVP debate but I still like to try. You mean the 21 games Shaq missed and Wade was the best player on a 9-12 team? Yea that same team that with a brand new GP, 2nd year Haslem and Zo that Wade just elevated in the 04-05 playoffs then just destroyed the 05-06 playoffs and killed the league that year. He also ended up being the best player on that 52-30 team.
That 2005-2006 Heat season was very similar to the Kobe-Shaq glory years. Both players were insanely productive and accounted for most of their teams wins. No doubt Shaq's presence hurt Wade's MVP chances, though. If you go back and look at Wade's statline your eyes might melt at the glory of it all.
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what's the point of all this MVP talk? all i've seen from it are:
1) D-Rose should win because of ____________ (which could all be wrong)
2) Lebron should win the MVP, but won't because everybody except his teammates (and David Stern) hates him.
3) Kobe should win the MVP, but they lost to Cleveland (seriously though, how the hell do you lose to Cleveland if you're not New York).
4) Dirk, D-Howard should win the MVP because __________
we're all talking in circles here. no matter how many facts, metrics, and empirical proof we put on here, no one's minds will be changed because the MVP award is based on opinion. facts can justify an opinion, but unless there's an MVP criteria where we all can agree on, there's no point in discussing this any further (although it will continue). now who will win the NBA Championship? that discussion could throw out many opinions because we've all (or most of us) have seen a good chunk of the season and formulate an opinion on who would win based on eyeball test and more complex metrics.
i'm a Bulls fan (grew up in Chi during all 6 chips), but i'll say this: if anybody's saying Rose should win based on his statistics, that's not a realistic opinion. like I told Ace the other day: if D-Rose wins (and he probably will), it will be more of a team MVP. is that wrong? ehhh...depends on how you look at it (moving from an #8 seed to a #1 seed in one year is past ridiculous).
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I stick to my moratorium on Derrick Rose MVP talk.
However, Nash winning in 05-06 wasn't that surprising. Amare had the microfracture surgery and was out the whole year, and they ended up the number 1 seed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2006.html
06-07 they won even more.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2007.html
When you look at their teams, who is their center? Who are their 3 hall of famers (to restate some espn analyst's recipe for winning championships)? Their non-Nash all stars were Amare, and maybe, kind of, Steve Marion, who went on to do very little in Miami and Toronto. Nor did Barbosa, Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, or Boris Diaw.
Amare doing well helped Nash's MVP cause, because it fell under made his teammates better. Whereas with Lebron, Wade has to play better than before for Lebron to have made him better.
You can be valuable to your team by winning games yourself or making your team better. In the end, voters define value as wins, not stats, although stats can create wins. Kobe didn't make his team win enough in 2006, so he wasn't considered MVP. If he had done what Nash effectively did, that is, take a mediocre team, say the Grizzlies, and make them win a ton, then he's MVP.
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On March 19 2011 15:58 igotmyown wrote:
I stick to my moratorium on Derrick Rose MVP talk.
You can be valuable to your team by winning games yourself or making your team better. In the end, voters define value as wins, not stats, although stats can create wins. Kobe didn't make his team win enough in 2006, so he wasn't considered MVP. If he had done what Nash effectively did, that is, take a mediocre team, say the Grizzlies, and make them win a ton, then he's MVP.
Kobe went into Super Saiyen Mode 2 after the 2004 season. He put on like 25 pounds of muscle and
just barely failed to lug his miserable team to the playoffs. In 06, when Nash won, I believe, he shared the court with such savants as Smush Parker, Kareem Rush, Medvedenko, Chris Mihm and Von Wafer. Kobe did it on his own, he gets mega credit for that year.
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On March 19 2011 16:25 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 15:58 igotmyown wrote:
I stick to my moratorium on Derrick Rose MVP talk.
You can be valuable to your team by winning games yourself or making your team better. In the end, voters define value as wins, not stats, although stats can create wins. Kobe didn't make his team win enough in 2006, so he wasn't considered MVP. If he had done what Nash effectively did, that is, take a mediocre team, say the Grizzlies, and make them win a ton, then he's MVP. Kobe went into Super Saiyen Mode 2 after the 2004 season. He put on like 25 pounds of muscle and just barely failed to lug his miserable team to the playoffs. In 06, when Nash won, I believe, he shared the court with such savants as Smush Parker, Kareem Rush, Medvedenko, Chris Mihm and Von Wafer. Kobe did it on his own, he gets mega credit for that year.
Yes, Kobe was the best player in the league 2004-2008, that is pretty much undeniable. In some of those seasons he might not have deserved the MVP purely because of his selfishness, but on the other hand, his team was pretty woeful so it can be excused.
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He won 42 games that year... the rockets did that without yao ming. The 2006 season hurt his career more than anything. This is a guy at the peak of his powers, he takes most of the shots, and he ends up with a 50% win rate.
If his circumstances stayed the same, he'd be stuck in the barrel of good players putting up big numbers on crappy teams (vince, mcgrady, or more successfully iverson and chris paul)
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I'd give it to Dwight(#1), Dirk (#2) or LBJ (#3) but I can see how you'd be able to make a good case for a lot of players this year.
This is just my arbitrary opinion based on the games I've seen this year so take it with a grain of salt (although maybe it's pretty similar to how the real thing is chosen!).
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Dam I had a lot to read...
It just seems to me that some people are debating about how/why the MVP award should be awarded, and others are debating about who will win it from the perspective of how it has been voted over the last 20 years.
Records do matter when it comes down to it, specially when it comes down to a few players who all have an argument for MVP. Is Rose the best PG in the NBA? no, but he is definitely in the top 4. He is 8th in points, 10th in assists, and 7th in points/assist/rebounds per game in all of the NBA. That is pretty damn impressive, regardless of whether he has holes in his game, which he obviously does.
Could Chris Paul or Deron Williams do what he is doing if they were in CHI-town? of course, but that is not the case. He is the best PG on a championship-contending team (well maybe other than Westbrook), and no player on the Bulls scares other teams like D Rose does. Other teams do not worry about Deng, Noah, or Boozer tearing them apart because they are not those kind of players. It could be argued that Rose makes those players that much better.
Since 1981, when sportscasters started voting for MVP (in case you didn't know), only teams with over 51 wins have won an MVP award. If Orlando is able to get there I would argue that Howard deserves the MVP(in my opinion), just because he is the most dominant player at his position and the most valuable player to his team than any of the other players on top teams. The whole team offense revolves around poor Howard (well, and the 3pt shot  ).
Another thing that comes into consideration is the stability of the team throughout the season. Have they had major losing streaks throughout the season (like Mia)? Have they had injuries to other top players? Now I haven't followed the Bulls all that much (so correct me if I'm wrong) but it seems they have been the most consistent team in the East this year, and have also survived some injuries to their other top players. Now you might say "well their team is stacked", but the point is that it still has put added load/pressure on their most dominant player.
Now their is definitely hype involved when it comes down to it, which would benefit Rose in this case. But, in my opinion, out of all the players that could possibly win MVP this year (Rose, LBJ, Howard, Dirk, Kobe), it could be said that Rose and Howard have the least arguments going against them.
LBJ and Miami have been streaky and have not done well against the better teams in the NBA or in crunch time. Kobe is Kobe, although the Laker team has a lot of good players. Dirk has been solid as well, but DAL also has the best bench in the NBA (statistically).
In the MVP voting process, a player gets ten points for every 1st place vote and 7 points for every 2nd place vote, so even if all the votes think he belongs in the top 2, it would be kind of hard to not get him in. If Rose does win, he definitely will have to thank his team for helping him (which a lot of MVP players in the past have also done).
TLDR: The best player in the league does not always win the MVP award. MVP is an opinion of the sports writers/casters, which usually comes down to eliminating the arguments against that player on why he should not win. If Magic is able to finish strong, I think Howard should get it, but Rose definitely belongs in the top 3 discussion to win it this year, whether you think he is the best PG or not.
PS: I feel like I had more to say but I want to get ready for UFC fight and am tired of MVP talk now :p
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On March 19 2011 17:27 igotmyown wrote:
He won 42 games that year... the rockets did that without yao ming. The 2006 season hurt his career more than anything. This is a guy at the peak of his powers, he takes most of the shots, and he ends up with a 50% win rate.
If his circumstances stayed the same, he'd be stuck in the barrel of good players putting up big numbers on crappy teams (vince, mcgrady, or more successfully iverson and chris paul)
The Rockets had a much better team than the Lakers...like I have never seen a PG more lost than Smush Parker on every. fucking. play. It's like even fucking Kwame Brown got it for some stretches, but Smush was like WTF all day every day.
Like really, you can bring up Vince, McGrady, Iverson and Paul, but none of them were had it as bad as that Laker team in 2006. Keep in mind you're referencing Iverson and Vince in a shitty EC where sub-500 teams were in the playoff hunt.
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On March 20 2011 10:05 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 17:27 igotmyown wrote:
He won 42 games that year... the rockets did that without yao ming. The 2006 season hurt his career more than anything. This is a guy at the peak of his powers, he takes most of the shots, and he ends up with a 50% win rate.
If his circumstances stayed the same, he'd be stuck in the barrel of good players putting up big numbers on crappy teams (vince, mcgrady, or more successfully iverson and chris paul) The Rockets had a much better team than the Lakers...like I have never seen a PG more lost than Smush Parker on every. fucking. play. It's like even fucking Kwame Brown got it for some stretches, but Smush was like WTF all day every day. Like really, you can bring up Vince, McGrady, Iverson and Paul, but none of them were had it as bad as that Laker team in 2006. Keep in mind you're referencing Iverson and Vince in a shitty EC where sub-500 teams were in the playoff hunt.
Exactly! It's one thing to repeat the anti-Kobe line: "Oh, he takes too many shots! He doesn't trust his teammates! Etc, Etc." That's garbage. Just because you listen to your local sports radio show doesn't mean you understand what's going on in the NBA. The 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 Lakers were a disaster. I mean, Smush Parker was a STARTER. He was so bad that Judicator actually had to go and compliment Kwame Brown in comparison...think about that for a second. They were so bad that Mitch Kupchack thought that Luke Walton and Sasha Vujacic would be long-term building blocks. Who in God's name was Kobe supposed to pass to? Kobe is a relatively selfish player but don't use 2006 as an example, the dude killed himself to win every single game that he could scratch out. Do you have to like the way he did it? No, but just be aware of the fact that 42 wins and a playoff berth with that putrid roster was completely amazing.
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Phil Jackson made a huge difference for the Lakers. The team looked significantly better than they did in 2005.
Don't forget that the first round where the Lakers almost beat the Suns, Kobe suddenly began deferring to his teammates much more. I recall him saying, "it's so much more fun playing this way" (meaning unselfishly). Kwame Brown and Walton actually did very well down low against the undersized Suns, and Smush Parker wasn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.
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Kobe's lakers were comparable to the Heat supporting cast, except it was Kobe instead of Lebron + Wade + Bosh.
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Lamar Odom? Although Kobe wasn't exactly making him play better.
I think I remember arguments two years ago that Kobe's teammates (with Gasol) were worse than Lebron's teammates.
And if the Lakers losing Shaq for Lamar Odom changes them from a championship team to aside from Kobe the worst teammates in the nba, where does that put Shaq? And if getting Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown makes the worst teammates to championship caliber supporting cast, how bad a ripoff was that trade :-p ?
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On March 21 2011 11:57 shmay wrote:
Phil Jackson made a huge difference for the Lakers. The team looked significantly better than they did in 2005.
Don't forget that the first round where the Lakers almost beat the Suns, Kobe suddenly began deferring to his teammates much more. I recall him saying, "it's so much more fun playing this way" (meaning unselfishly). Kwame Brown and Walton actually did very well down low against the undersized Suns, and Smush Parker wasn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.
Kwame did get it, Walton always got it. The problem was once Kwame went off the deep end aka a DUI charge for partying too hard, he didn't get it again and never got it for the rest of that series.
Smush is bad, I don't know how you can attempt to justify it, the dude was lost on both sides of the court. Sasha was good for his role which was just to spot up 3s which he did well. Think about it though, when your second option was Odom (that's if he was on that night and not drifting) with Brown and Sasha as your pressure releases, its like where does the ball go? Sasha/Brown/Kobe..hmm?
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Kwame couldn't catch a layup pass even if he was wide open sometimes, having it bounce of his fingers. The Lakers were hoping Chris Mihm could come back from injury to have some hope, CHRIS MIHM lol.
Smush Parker was picked up from the streets to join the LA Lakers...and played like it. Luke Walton and Devean George? uhm yaa...Walton is a smart player with good passing and a decent post-up but could barely jump a foot high, not to mention his terrible defense.
Vujacic was a selfish player who only wanted to shoot everytime he had a chance and was semi-open. Only now, is he barely starting to get over that.
Odom was decent, yet he is a weak-minded player who plays terrible when he is counted on to be a top 2 player on his team. Very inconsistent. They could always have brought in Slava Medvedenko to replace him though...
On March 21 2011 12:52 igotmyown wrote:
Lamar Odom? Although Kobe wasn't exactly making him play better.
I think I remember arguments two years ago that Kobe's teammates (with Gasol) were worse than Lebron's teammates.
And if the Lakers losing Shaq for Lamar Odom changes them from a championship team to aside from Kobe the worst teammates in the nba, where does that put Shaq? And if getting Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown makes the worst teammates to championship caliber supporting cast, how bad a ripoff was that trade :-p ?
I am not sure I understand all of this tbh but just to put things in perspective..Gasol was in a way a part of the Shaq trade. Caron Butler was traded for Brown, who was then traded for Pau. Well along with Crittenton and the other Gasol. The trade was definitely a ripoff, even Kupchak will tell you that. Not sure I get the Shaq thing, but he still had some years left when he was traded. He was traded to keep Kobe from signing somewhere else mostly..
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Luke Walton is bad, despite his strong basketball IQ and decent passing abilities, he is not much of a poor defensive player and is often overwhelmed on the court by faster more athletic players. There is a reason he can hardly crack 10 minutes on a great team with a so-so bench. Sasha is..okay, but the contract that the Lakers gave him was horrible in retrospect.
You seem to like Kwame, Judicator, but I think he is one of the worst players in the league. Just my opinion.
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On March 21 2011 13:37 slyboogie wrote:
Luke Walton is bad, despite his strong basketball IQ and decent passing abilities, he is not much of a poor defensive player and is often overwhelmed on the court by faster more athletic players. There is a reason he can hardly crack 10 minutes on a great team with a so-so bench. Sasha is..okay, but the contract that the Lakers gave him was horrible in retrospect.
You seem to like Kwame, Judicator, but I think he is one of the worst players in the league. Just my opinion.
Kwame was one of the reasons why the Lakers pushed the Suns that playoff series as hard as they did. He isn't great, but he's not as bad as some people think, when he did play up to his potential (not first pick of the draft mind you) he was a solid center. That series, Brown was at the right places and looked comfortable in the offense and defense which frankly wasn't the case before.
Walton did the right things which honestly was all you could ask from that team.
Edit:
To put it in perspective, remember when Boxer took in Rumble and Zerglee as SKT's Zergs, saying they had potential despite sucking it up majorly for the better part of their stay in SKT, they had one good run in qualifying for Starleague or MSL (don't remember) and it all seemed justified? That was Kwame in the Phoenix series in 2006. And like each other, they all proceeded to revert to their shitty selves.
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On March 21 2011 12:52 igotmyown wrote:
Lamar Odom? Although Kobe wasn't exactly making him play better.
I think I remember arguments two years ago that Kobe's teammates (with Gasol) were worse than Lebron's teammates.
And if the Lakers losing Shaq for Lamar Odom changes them from a championship team to aside from Kobe the worst teammates in the nba, where does that put Shaq? And if getting Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown makes the worst teammates to championship caliber supporting cast, how bad a ripoff was that trade :-p ?
#1. The Gasol Trade is acknowledged as one of the biggest rip-offs in the history of the NBA, so yes it was an incredibly huge upgrade.
#2. From the 2004 Western conference champ team to the 2005 bad team the Lakers lost: Derrik Fisher, Gary Payton, Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Rick Fox, and Shaq. The only notable pickups were Odom (totally undeveloped and raw, many people thought he was a bust prior to 2008), Vlade Divac, and Caron Butler. The '06 Lakers added Bynum for a total of 3 players on the team (Bryant, Odom, Bynum) who are worthy of being in a rotation for an NBA team.
#3. In 2008 The Lakers had many other significant pickups: Fisher returns, Ariza, Farmar becomes acceptable, but really we see why they lost to Boston: The team still had no depth.
Also as I've said before, Lebron makes building a team around him very hard, so judging the quality of his teammates is neigh impossible.
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Walton was honestly a much better player back then and showed lots of potential. So much for that.
I'm not saying Smush was good, but just not the pit of despair he's being made out to have been. To be fair, my memory is hazy. And yeah, the Suns series was the peak in Kwame's career, troughing soon after when he randomly threw a cake at some guy on the street.
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EPT
