EPTNBA 2010-2011 Season - Page 134
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
I think that Rose has to be considered to be a legitimate MVP candidate. While his individual statistics don't justify the award, he's still an elite player who is leading a team that is winning the East over very good teams like BOS, MIA and ORL. While he could obviously be a lot more efficient offensively, he's also responsible for generating a lot (if not all) of the offense for his team. While Deng has played very well this season, he's still no Allstar-level talent and remains an elite role player. Teams certainly don't plan their defenses to counter him, that's all reserved for Rose. I've seen some mention of the fact that Rose has a stacked roster, but I don't see it. Deng has been the only close-to-Allstar teammate he's had next to him for most of the season, and he's not a top 50 player by any measure. While Noah and Boozer are both great players, their contributions to CHI's success have been severely limited by injury (both), being limited while recovering from injury (both), and learning to play with new teammates in a new system (Boozer). Beyond those guys you're left with a bunch of role players who have very limited games, i.e. Korver (sharpshooter, nothing else), Brewer (defense and hustle plays, nothing else), Gibson (Haslem 2.0 but has been limited by injury and recovering from injury), Thomas (old and way past prime), Bogans (open 3s and defense, nothing else), etc. No one looking at that roster at the beginning of the season, knowing that Boozer and Noah would be limited as they have been, would have predicted anything close to the kind of success that the Bulls have this season. None of those players, except maybe Thomas, has ever been part of a contending team at the top of their conference, despite playing next to some very talented players. None of them can create any sort of offense for themselves or others. The best you can say about any of them is that they're "solid" role players. I think DAL, ORL, BOS, ATL and some other teams all have better overall depth of talent than CHI. At some point, I think you have to acknowledge that Rose and Thibodeau are doing a lot with not that much. The consistency of Rose and the Bulls is also very impressive. The team hasn't lost more than two in a row all season, and has done well against the best teams in the league. Rose carries a heavy load on that team, so I definitely attribute a lot of that to him. Thibodeau can coach the hell out of the players, but he never steps on the court or has to actually play the game. Rose is the one that teams cater their entire defenses to stop. Rose is the one who has the ball in his hands almost all the time, and has to create offense for himself and his teammates on most plays. Rose has the 2nd highest usage in the league, and also plays a ton of minutes every game. Sure, he's inefficient with regards to his FG% and TOs, but that's going to happen when he has to do so much for his team. Take out Rose and how does that team score? You can defend all you want, but, at the end of the day, you still have to outscore your opponent. While I won't say that Rose should win the MVP, I don't think it's the traveshammockery that some people are making it out to be if he does. A lot of times players get criticized for putting up amazing stats while their teams aren't winning. It seems unfair to deny him legitimate MVP consideration for not putting up amazing numbers while being the primary contributor by far on a team in championship contention who could end up winning its conference. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Secondly, they have much, much more success because of that bench and their defense. Chicago is ranked #1/#2 defense all season long and surely you don't think Rose is the main reason do you? He isn't playing at an elite level defensively. He's an offensive talent on a team catered to his style and a defense that can make up for bad shooting nights. It's not his fault and it takes nothing away from him but that doesn't make him the MVP or even close to it. Every year there is an MVP debate there are numbers to back it up. Why does Derrick Rose get a pass? | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Add in to the fact that somehow The East dropped off from the 6th seed on down to worse than we thought and you've got a lot of easy wins. Also don't forget that while Boozer and Noah were out Chicago had a long, long homestand. Sometimes it's better to look at why the Bulls record is so good instead of just making the assumption that in 1 year Derrick Rose jumped from an at best top 20 player to MVP. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:00 Ace wrote: When you do a lot for your team that doesn't mean you get to be inefficient. Dwight, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, CP3, D-Will when he was healthy - come on. All of those guys are high efficiency players. Let's not try to make excuses for Derrick Rose here. Secondly, they have much, much more success because of that bench and their defense. Chicago is ranked #1/#2 defense all season long and surely you don't think Rose is the main reason do you? He isn't playing at an elite level defensively. He's an offensive talent on a team catered to his style and a defense that can make up for bad shooting nights. It's not his fault and it takes nothing away from him but that doesn't make him the MVP or even close to it. Every year there is an MVP debate there are numbers to back it up. Why does Derrick Rose get a pass? Eh, Rose has looked serviceable on the perimeter this season, honestly though, he's THE reason why the Bulls are sitting atop of the East (tied for first) so I can see him as the MVP. Have you not watched the Bulls at all this year? | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:01 a176 wrote: Ace, why you on a mission to discredit Rose so badly? Eww, more Derrick Rose talk. Not to get overly academic but the burden of proof for MVP should be on the supporters of Derrick Rose, yes? So can anyone tell me why he deserves the MVP without using the phrases "led his team" and "best team record?" | ||
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eddytlaw
United States102 Posts
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:00 Ace wrote: When you do a lot for your team that doesn't mean you get to be inefficient. Dwight, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, CP3, D-Will when he was healthy - come on. All of those guys are high efficiency players. Let's not try to make excuses for Derrick Rose here. Secondly, they have much, much more success because of that bench and their defense. Chicago is ranked #1/#2 defense all season long and surely you don't think Rose is the main reason do you? He isn't playing at an elite level defensively. He's an offensive talent on a team catered to his style and a defense that can make up for bad shooting nights. It's not his fault and it takes nothing away from him but that doesn't make him the MVP or even close to it. Every year there is an MVP debate there are numbers to back it up. Why does Derrick Rose get a pass? You're completely right that Rose doesn't get a free pass for his inefficiencies, but I don't think that they necessarily condemn him to non-MVP-hood either. Would he be a substantially better MVP candidate if he was more efficient? Without a doubt. Should he not be considered a solid candidate because he's inefficient? I don't think so, but that's all opinion. I do think that his offensive inefficiencies should at least be qualified by the lack of offensive support he has on his roster, particularly when considering who the other people you listed are passing to. Dwight is surrounded by great 3pt shooting threats, DAL has quite a few talented scorers apart from Dirk, Lebron and Wade have each other and Bosh (as well as those undependable shooters around them), CP3 has West, and DWill had a lot of options in Utah while having Lopez in NJ. All of those options are significantly better than Deng + Korver, the only two legitimate offensive threats on the team apart from Rose (not counting Booz b/c of all the missed games). I still maintain that Chicago's bench is not all that impressive. Coming off of it are guys like Korver, Thomas (when he wasn't starting for Noah), Gibson (same as Thomas but for Boozer), Brewer, Watson, and Asik. I don't know about you, but those names don't really inspire or impress me. At the very least, it doesn't put CHI head and shoulders above the teams the other MVP candidates have around them (excluding MIA of course). As for the defense, as I said it can't win them games by itself. Their great defense definitely is a huge reason why they have been successful, but it's nothing without Rose to put points on the board. Would the Bulls still be able to score enough to win from time to time without Rose? I'm sure they could. But there's no way they would be anywhere near the top 4 in the East without his ability to score or create scoring opportunities for his teammates despite whatever defenses throw at him. Rose doesn't get a pass, and I'm certainly not giving the award to him, but he's a legitimate candidate. As I said before, it seems unfair to deny him even that just because he doesn't put up great numbers when we so often criticize players who put up great numbers but can't help their team get wins. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
you've survived another day Jerod, but dont let me see you fuck up like that again. Ahh Celtics diving after balls, hustle plays, running the floor, who can compete when they play like this :D. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
1. He is "evil" for leaving Cleveland (subjective). 2. He has not won a ring despite having the best record in the NBA 2 seasons running (objective). 3. This would be an NBA 3-Peat, the only others who have done this are Bill Russel, Wilt Chamberlain, and Larry Bird. The first two 3-peats were earned during a time in the league when it was basically uncompetitive and Bird had won a title already. Some greats who were denied a 3-peat as MVP: Jordan, Kareem, Magic (objective). | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On March 22 2011 10:38 cLutZ wrote: The real problem with the DRose debate is that the fact is that LeBron is the real MVP, but no one wants to give it to him for 3 reasons, 2 of which are objective. 1. He is "evil" for leaving Cleveland (subjective). 2. He has not won a ring despite having the best record in the NBA 2 seasons running (objective). 3. This would be an NBA 3-Peat, the only others who have done this are Bill Russel, Wilt Chamberlain, and Larry Bird. The first two 3-peats were earned during a time in the league when it was basically uncompetitive and Bird had won a title already. Some greats who were denied a 3-peat as MVP: Jordan, Kareem, Magic (objective). The real reason is that he's supposed to have more help, yet his team isn't outplaying top contenders. If the Heat were on pace for a 70 win season, Lebron would be MVP regardless of those 3 reasons. | ||
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FQD1911
83 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 22 2011 11:29 igotmyown wrote: The real reason is that he's supposed to have more help, yet his team isn't outplaying top contenders. If the Heat were on pace for a 70 win season, Lebron would be MVP regardless of those 3 reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996-97_NBA_season That is all. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
That wouldn't have been his 3rd MVP in a row. It would have been his second in a row, which would not have been unprecedented - and the MVP voters weren't psychics who would predict he would win next season. Michael Jordan had won the finals. Michael Jordan didn't leave the bulls. This is a misapplication of history. The Jazz got to the finals that year I believe, and there were certainly other well defined MVP candidates. The last few years, there were more reasonable candidates: Dwayne Wade, who if you believe Kobe should have won it in 2006, did something similar. Kobe Bryant. Dwight Howard. But this year, Dwayne Wade isn't the best stat person on his own team, so he's unlikely to win it. Kobe's winning but his efficiency is going down with age, he wasn't even the best player on his team the first few months of the season. Dwight Howard is an interesting choice. He's had another year to refine his game, and he's taking getting more offensive responsibility... yet the Magic are playing worse than the last two years, recordwise, vs good teams. That may be simplistic due to roster changes, Rashard getting older/leaving, but if Dwight's going to attract a lot of attention as the Most Valuable Player, shouldn't his increasing value supercede those issues? | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
And ace this ones for you lol | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14912 Posts
On March 22 2011 16:19 igotmyown wrote: Dwight Howard is an interesting choice. He's had another year to refine his game, and he's taking getting more offensive responsibility... yet the Magic are playing worse than the last two years, recordwise, vs good teams. That may be simplistic due to roster changes, Rashard getting older/leaving, but if Dwight's going to attract a lot of attention as the Most Valuable Player, shouldn't his increasing value supercede those issues? re: rashard stopped taking roids | ||
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pinkranger15
Philippines1597 Posts
 just watched True NBA about Bill Russell and Brian Shaw (candidate for the next head coach of the LA Lakers). really love the quote of Bill Russell"if you like to, don't give it up, you don't have to give it up. because inspite of everything, i want you to remember one thing, you can do anything that you wanna do, if you wanna do it bad enough. " just knew that Bill Russell gave the Celtics 6 consecutive rings and 2 back-to-back championship as the Celtic Head Coach. and i might add that Russell just recently received a Medal of Freedom (highest medal a civilian can have). the first NBA player to receive such honor. Bill Russell, you are my new hero | ||
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On March 22 2011 23:43 pinkranger15 wrote: sad to see Rudy Gay out for the rest of the season. just watched True NBA about Bill Russell and Brian Shaw (candidate for the next head coach of the LA Lakers). really love the quote of Bill Russell"if you like to, don't give it up, you don't have to give it up. because inspite of everything, i want you to remember one thing, you can do anything that you wanna do, if you wanna do it bad enough. " just knew that Bill Russell gave the Celtics 6 consecutive rings and 2 back-to-back championship as the Celtic Head Coach. and i might add that Russell just recently received a Medal of Freedom (highest medal a civilian can have). the first NBA player to receive such honor. Bill Russell, you are my new hero And he was also a player-coach for his last few years (don't know if that is what you meant). First African-American coach in fact. He was an awesome defender and shot-blocking machine from what I have seen. He got like 40 rebounds in the finals, twice. | ||
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