opposing wolf run? i actually think spellskite would have been decent in the mirror if dungrove elder wasnt discovered. then again ancient grudge....zzz

bumatlarge

United States4567 Posts

November 04 2011 01:08 GMT

#1902

When my fourth skite is in the grave and i got an ooze on the field! Hoho checkmate ancient grudge! Oh your just gonne kill me with that titan... ok....

RoosterSamurai

Japan2108 Posts

November 04 2011 01:31 GMT

#1903

I'm running wolf run ramp, so if you guys want to test your theories instead of arguing with one another, that's fine with me.

Judicator

United States7270 Posts

November 04 2011 01:47 GMT

#1904

On November 04 2011 09:55 MCMcEmcee wrote:
i can't really think of any deck in the format where the spellskite plan against wolfrun is any good

MBI, that's about it.

numLoCK

Canada1416 Posts

November 04 2011 03:35 GMT

#1905

How does everyone feel about MonoGreen Wolf Ramp vs R/G Wolf Ramp vs W/G Wolf Ramp?
Is it a metagame call, or does one deck seem to stand above the others for you guys?
I haven't done nearly enough testing, but I feel as if W/G is just the better call in most situations.

Judicator

United States7270 Posts

November 04 2011 03:54 GMT

#1906

MonoGreen is better, Dungrove is a better option 90% of the time, they have better mirror match ups as Beast Within is a critical part of that mirror. Hexproof in green is dumb.

MCMcEmcee

United States1609 Posts

November 04 2011 04:32 GMT

#1907

I don't like the GW lists I've seen, I'm sure that a good GW list can exist at some point but diluting/deleting your main gameplans (Dungrove Elder, Titan, Inkmoth + Wolf Run, Inkmoth by itself) to add Day of Judgment doesn't seem that appealing to me. Might as well add Primeval Titan + Inkmoth + Wolf Run + 1 mountain to GW Tokens (OH MAN LET'S DO THIS)

I do think GW has better % against Mirran Crusader, but I also think the mono-G lists could just sideboard more thoroughly for that problem.

slyboogie

United States3423 Posts

November 04 2011 05:59 GMT

#1908

On November 04 2011 09:42 Judicator wrote:
The problem right now isn't control. The problem is fucktard herpderp Hexproof and the lack of good manlands.

There are just too many cards for a control player to play around right now and no enough EFFICIENT answers for a control player.

And Dissipates >>>>> Stoic Rebuttal >>> Cancels, unless you like playing against Flashback and Snapcaster, yes it does matter, as dissipates are just better against the field.

Surgicals are godlike versus Snapcaster decks, not as good as Nihil Spellbombs against everything else.

You're fooling yourself if you think that Dissipate is overwhelmingly better than Cancel. It's better, certainly, but there are enough times when it is, functionally, just a Cancel. Of course, the times that it is better are pretty important.

EDIT: That sounds like a defense of Cancel - it isn't. It's more a shot at Dissipate.

Cixah

United States11285 Posts

November 04 2011 06:03 GMT

#1909

On November 04 2011 09:55 MCMcEmcee wrote:
i can't really think of any deck in the format where the spellskite plan against wolfrun is any good

I do it in Solar Flare. Its sun titanable, its a blocker and eats removal for lunch. Not like that matchup is any hard for me anyway >.>.

MCMcEmcee

United States1609 Posts

November 04 2011 06:27 GMT

#1910

that's more a function of your other gameplans being fine against wolfrun tho

numLoCK

Canada1416 Posts

November 04 2011 06:40 GMT

#1911

On November 04 2011 13:32 MCMcEmcee wrote:
I don't like the GW lists I've seen, I'm sure that a good GW list can exist at some point but diluting/deleting your main gameplans (Dungrove Elder, Titan, Inkmoth + Wolf Run, Inkmoth by itself) to add Day of Judgment doesn't seem that appealing to me. Might as well add Primeval Titan + Inkmoth + Wolf Run + 1 mountain to GW Tokens (OH MAN LET'S DO THIS)

I do think GW has better % against Mirran Crusader, but I also think the mono-G lists could just sideboard more thoroughly for that problem.

I'm noticing that the GW ramp list I've been testing is vastly different from the ones most people see.
Instead of going white for Day of Judgment and White Sun's Zenith its going white for Mirran Crusader and Hero of Bladehold maindeck. Basically it gives a powerful midgame while ramping up and endgame is still incredibly powerful as Wolf Run + Crusader is very potent.

dignity

Canada908 Posts

November 04 2011 08:18 GMT

#1912

Control is definitely not weak right now. I just got wrecked by my friends WUB control and I still cannot think of a deck that will win against it right now in standard. Short of him letting you resolve a surgical you will not win. I played against him using both MBI(granted this deck was outdated) and a variant of township tokens. The only times I won was when he misplayed. Out of both my decks I went 2/~10. The things that do resolve he simply removes and you will get a 3 drop resolve as a best case scenario.

The amount of card advantage gained from combinations of Snapcaster mage/forbidden alchemy/think twice means that he will always have the proper answer to whatever threat you drop. Just to specify, his deck is not a solar flare deck, but a permission deck.

slyboogie

United States3423 Posts

November 04 2011 08:54 GMT

#1913

Esper Control is strong, obviously. You are stocked with counter magic, instant speed creature removal and all that white gives you in the form of Planeswalkers, O-Rings and Day of Judgements. But its manabase sucks - and I won't hear that it doesn't. U/B has less of a problem than U/W, that's where my dissatisfaction comes from, largely. And if you were playing G/W Tokens at all competently, you should be winning at least some games, come on.

MCMcEmcee

United States1609 Posts

November 04 2011 09:20 GMT

#1914

depends on which build of GW Tokens
Australian ramp into threats style build has a fairly rough time against UB specifically. Didn't test against Esper control or Solar Flare, but haven't seen anybody good who wants to play those decks around here.
SCG/States shrine + anthems plan can play the longer game against UB, on the play you are advantaged imo. Against Esper colors it's a pain to leave up mana to defend your shrines against O-rings all the time... but that's like the only card they have against you once you resolve a shrine.

The Australian build was specifically designed to beat up on Wolf Run and other aggro decks, so having a poor percentage against control is understandable.

dignity

Canada908 Posts

November 04 2011 18:59 GMT

#1915

I use a shrine+anthem style GW tokens deck, and shrine is about the only thing going for you in this matchup. If you resolve a shrine, but he turn 3 o-rings it, you are pretty much fucked. You also have to spend the entire time babysitting that shrine in cause of anything. Once he gets 7 mana he can just force you to crack the shrine and then board wipe. That pretty much means turn 7 since he will not be missing a land drop. The only time I won against him with that deck was by resolving 2 shrines, on turns 2 and 3.

Also, his deck does not run planeswalkers for the white. The white in his deck is specifically for o-rings, timelys, and white sun zeniths(this is his win-con, along with a single army of the damned). The only creatures in his deck pre-side board is snapcasters.

The mana base is not actually that big a problem since the times when your land would come in tapped would be most likely turns 1-3. At worst, you let them resolve a 3 drop before you get complete lockdown of the field. Once the deck stabilizes, which is very fast considering everything, you cannot win.

slyboogie

United States3423 Posts

November 04 2011 23:40 GMT

#1916

Control isn't strong. It's hard to believe anyone thinks it is. Look at SCG Kansas City and The GP in Japan. Not a single control deck in the top 16. Maybe Las Vegas will show us something but you are relying on relatively weak stuff against a diverse and aggressive set of decks. And whoever said Spell Pierce isn't control: I think I get your point but you're trying to be too clever. Is Remand or Daze not control either?

dignity

Canada908 Posts

November 05 2011 03:04 GMT

#1917

I would consider Remand more of a combo piece more than a counter.

MCMcEmcee

United States1609 Posts

November 05 2011 09:47 GMT

#1918

Remand, Daze, and Spell Pierce are about as controlling as Unsummon.

deth2munkies

United States4051 Posts

November 05 2011 15:01 GMT

#1919

On November 05 2011 08:40 slyboogie wrote:
Control isn't strong. It's hard to believe anyone thinks it is. Look at SCG Kansas City and The GP in Japan. Not a single control deck in the top 16. Maybe Las Vegas will show us something but you are relying on relatively weak stuff against a diverse and aggressive set of decks. And whoever said Spell Pierce isn't control: I think I get your point but you're trying to be too clever. Is Remand or Daze not control either?

Solar Flare was 4th and 8th in Kansas City, what are you talking about?

I mean I should know, the guy who was piloting the deck just crushed my fucking face with it last night at FNM...

Judicator

United States7270 Posts

November 05 2011 15:10 GMT

#1920

On November 06 2011 00:01 deth2munkies wrote:

Show nested quote +

Solar Flare was 4th and 8th in Kansas City, what are you talking about?

I mean I should know, the guy who was piloting the deck just crushed my fucking face with it last night at FNM...

Congrats, 4th and 8th means it's a deck right? Go look at it's match ups against the best decks in standard right now, it's fucking awful. Just because you get smashed by it at FNM means literally nothing.

Edit:

And people need to stop pretending counter-magic is some kind of super difficult shit to play around right now, especially with the weak counter-magic package we have right now. A turn 2 rampant growth or emissary is basically a fuck you to a control player, a turn 1 ramper is a you're now on the draw with me up a card.