EPTI dont think control is the worst thing ever, but i do think that there are so many different attacking angles in this format that unless you can relaly spot on predict the meta and fine tune to it, control wont be as powerful as you want it to be. its easier to just be proactive and then side in some powerful disruption if needed.
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Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
I dont think control is the worst thing ever, but i do think that there are so many different attacking angles in this format that unless you can relaly spot on predict the meta and fine tune to it, control wont be as powerful as you want it to be. its easier to just be proactive and then side in some powerful disruption if needed. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:10 Judicator wrote: Congrats, 4th and 8th means it's a deck right? Go look at it's match ups against the best decks in standard right now, it's fucking awful. Just because you get smashed by it at FNM means literally nothing. Solar Flare is still a reasonable deck, so is UW. UB just can't deal with tokens and the like due to lack of board sweepers as point removal isn't quite as valuable. No forms of control are completely dominant in the meta, but they have fairly even matchups against pretty much all the other decks. The reason you haven't been seeing them in top 8s as much is because everyone and their mom is playing Wolf Run or Tokens, and when you have a couple hundred of each deck with 20-30 or so Solar Flare, the odds are quite stacked against you seeing a bunch of flare at the top. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
GP Hiroshima had a Solar Flare deck in top 8 (top 4, even), and two UB Control lists in top 16. But who's counting? (I am) | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:22 deth2munkies wrote: Solar Flare is still a reasonable deck, so is UW. UB just can't deal with tokens and the like due to lack of board sweepers as point removal isn't quite as valuable. No forms of control are completely dominant in the meta, but they have fairly even matchups against pretty much all the other decks. The reason you haven't been seeing them in top 8s as much is because everyone and their mom is playing Wolf Run or Tokens, and when you have a couple hundred of each deck with 20-30 or so Solar Flare, the odds are quite stacked against you seeing a bunch of flare at the top. HMMM? Flare losing to the best decks in T2 means it won't be seeing T8 as often? What are the odds on that? If you are a good player, and have a good deck tuned against the meta, you'll top 8 at the very least unless you just have bad beats all fucking day in which case you probably weren't a good player in the first place. The deck density has very little to do with how many reaches top 8. Take Valakut for example or an alternative example in UB control, or more recently Travis Woo's little concoction. When Wolf-run came out the week before States, I was worried as a Flare player that I was going to lose to it. Instead I go 4-0 against it because people don't know how to run it at all and it barely cracked top 8 despite being the most popular deck there hands down. Same went for mono-red. Tell me what Flare match ups are right now. If you can't then you haven't tested and are just speaking out of your imagination based on what you think the match ups are based on articles and match vids. Yeah it's so reasonable when the other decks just flies over you, hexproofs through you (tapping out on 4 for a day is the stupidest thing in existence right now for control), tramples through you. Before you or anyone else attempts to bring up the, you're supposed to sculpt your hand bullshit, yeah, that's assuming I have Forbiddens, can play said Forbidden and said Forbidden nets me exactly what I need and evens out the tempo advantage they gain when the next turn they can easily throw another threat that I have to answer. If the control player can actually regain control of the board, then sure, it's fine, but getting to that point right now is so brutal because notice all the other decks' starting 7 is almost always better at face value than your starting 7. Sure you have Alchemies and Think Twices, but those don't necessarily get you there and if you get into a top deck situation, chances are their top deck is better than yours. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:54 MCMcEmcee wrote: Regardless of your feelings on the deck, 4th and 8th place is two control decks in the top 8, which is two more than "NOT A SINGLE CONTROL DECK IN THE TOP 16." GP Hiroshima had a Solar Flare deck in top 8 (top 4, even), and two UB Control lists in top 16. But who's counting? (I am) Okay, a couple of things. That Solar Flare deck from Hiroshima is freaking mislabled. That's not Solar Flare. That's Esper Control or, if Solar Flare Players want in - NeoSolarFlare. So fine, a top 8. Solar Flare in general isn't traditional "Control." It's more like a combo deck, looking to go off, at least in my opinion. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On November 06 2011 00:59 Judicator wrote: HMMM? Flare losing to the best decks in T2 means it won't be seeing T8 as often? What are the odds on that? If you are a good player, and have a good deck tuned against the meta, you'll top 8 at the very least unless you just have bad beats all fucking day in which case you probably weren't a good player in the first place. The deck density has very little to do with how many reaches top 8. Take Valakut for example or an alternative example in UB control, or more recently Travis Woo's little concoction. When Wolf-run came out the week before States, I was worried as a Flare player that I was going to lose to it. Instead I go 4-0 against it because people don't know how to run it at all and it barely cracked top 8 despite being the most popular deck there hands down. Same went for mono-red. Tell me what Flare match ups are right now. If you can't then you haven't tested and are just speaking out of your imagination based on what you think the match ups are based on articles and match vids. Yeah it's so reasonable when the other decks just flies over you, hexproofs through you (tapping out on 4 for a day is the stupidest thing in existence right now for control), tramples through you. Before you or anyone else attempts to bring up the, you're supposed to sculpt your hand bullshit, yeah, that's assuming I have Forbiddens, can play said Forbidden and said Forbidden nets me exactly what I need and evens out the tempo advantage they gain when the next turn they can easily throw another threat that I have to answer. If the control player can actually regain control of the board, then sure, it's fine, but getting to that point right now is so brutal because notice all the other decks' starting 7 is almost always better at face value than your starting 7. Sure you have Alchemies and Think Twices, but those don't necessarily get you there and if you get into a top deck situation, chances are their top deck is better than yours. What I'm saying is that tournament magic is about 60% preparation, 20% skill, and 20% luck. So if there were 100 Tokens, 100 Wolf runs, and 20 solar flares/esper control, and, for the sake of argument, all the matchups are 50/50, then the odds you will have even 1 solar flare/esper control deck in the top 8 is very slim. It's just pure numbers. The deck I run is not as much a controlling version of Solar Flare as it is attempting to mill myself as fast as possible to reanimate huge fatties with limited countermagic and removal for protection. The downside to this build is a much larger weakness to aggro decks (especially red decks). I have a positive record against UW humans, and a slightly negative one against UG humans and I still haven't won a match against red. That said, the aforementioned loss to Dave Thomas was the only time I have lost a match to a strict control deck. I can't comment directly on the matchup from experience, I can't afford the snapcaster mages and multiple lilianas necessary to make esper control/traditional flare/UB/UW control. I can, however, comment on the fact that the Esper shell is DEFINITELY a viable archetype even against tokens and wolf run. Facing these decks is not a matchup loss, but you definitely don't have an overwhelming advantage either. I, personally, don't think there is a format-defining deck quite yet, but that Control is still completely viable and may end up being one of the dominant archetypes once more people figure it out. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On November 06 2011 03:09 deth2munkies wrote: What I'm saying is that tournament magic is about 60% preparation, 20% skill, and 20% luck. So if there were 100 Tokens, 100 Wolf runs, and 20 solar flares/esper control, and, for the sake of argument, all the matchups are 50/50, then the odds you will have even 1 solar flare/esper control deck in the top 8 is very slim. It's just pure numbers. The deck I run is not as much a controlling version of Solar Flare as it is attempting to mill myself as fast as possible to reanimate huge fatties with limited countermagic and removal for protection. The downside to this build is a much larger weakness to aggro decks (especially red decks). I have a positive record against UW humans, and a slightly negative one against UG humans and I still haven't won a match against red. That said, the aforementioned loss to Dave Thomas was the only time I have lost a match to a strict control deck. I can't comment directly on the matchup from experience, I can't afford the snapcaster mages and multiple lilianas necessary to make esper control/traditional flare/UB/UW control. I can, however, comment on the fact that the Esper shell is DEFINITELY a viable archetype even against tokens and wolf run. Facing these decks is not a matchup loss, but you definitely don't have an overwhelming advantage either. I, personally, don't think there is a format-defining deck quite yet, but that Control is still completely viable and may end up being one of the dominant archetypes once more people figure it out. Look, you can pretend like that matters, but it's not that case because you are assuming the pilots of those decks are all competent. Since you haven't played the standard deck in question, please refrain from thinking as such. There's a reason why Solar Flare right now is definitely tier 2. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/greenbeats-1/ I don't know it it matters or not, but this is for the card game, not online... just throwing that out there. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:46 captainwaffles wrote: Hi, I've been playing for about 2 months now, and I would like some feedback on this deck that I am making (I have most of the cards, this is just, what I think, it the most refined version of it) http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/greenbeats-1/ I don't know it it matters or not, but this is for the card game, not online... just throwing that out there. Consider splashing the red for Wolf run, it isn't that expensive yet, and you don't lose out more then you gain for dungrove. I guess if you only have 2 primevals it might be an issue, but you seem to have access to 3 GSZs. http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=935316 For reference of a WolfRunGreen | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
I think UW is probably the build, although Bant may have it's advantages, like I said, still figuring it out. And for those of you who don't know the combo: Shape Anew + lots of artifact token makers that aren't artifacts (Splicers, Master's Call) + Singleton Blightsteel Colossus = T3/4 Blightsteel (potentially). | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
I thought of that myself but there's just no fast way to get enough artifact tokens fast enough to justify it. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On November 06 2011 12:25 dignity wrote: Tempered tokens you say? I thought of that myself but there's just no fast way to get enough artifact tokens fast enough to justify it. Ratchet bomb would be trouble for that concept anyway, it sounds like. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On November 06 2011 12:11 deth2munkies wrote: Hmmm...my next brew (once I'm done with the paper I should be writing right now) is definitely going to be Splicers + Shape Anew based. I think with Intangible Virtue and Master Splicers you can win outright with the golems regardless of the combo, and blue gives it access to dig in the form of Think Twice/Alchemy and probably a bit of limited countermagic (Mana leaks main and negates or flashfreezes in the board). O-rings and maybe 1-2 days should give you enough time to set up the combo and/or a legion of first striking, flying, (maybe) regenerating huge golems. I think UW is probably the build, although Bant may have it's advantages, like I said, still figuring it out. And for those of you who don't know the combo: Shape Anew + lots of artifact token makers that aren't artifacts (Splicers, Master's Call) + Singleton Blightsteel Colossus = T3/4 Blightsteel (potentially). You'll find the play lines for that deck to be pretty terrible. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On November 06 2011 11:52 dignity wrote: If it is a casual deck its fine. There would be a few flaws with the deck if you intend for it to be competitive. What flaws? | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
No Swords means you actually can't pressure control decks. No Wolf-Run or Garruks means you lose in any mirrors. But like dignity said, if it's casual, its fine. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On November 06 2011 13:40 Judicator wrote: Overrun will be useless, you have no ways of interacting with Planeswalkers outside of Beast Withins which opens you up easily to O-Ring and Sword plays from turns 2 to 5. Then you have to worry about Planeswalkers on 3 to 5. No Swords means you actually can't pressure control decks. No Wolf-Run or Garruks means you lose in any mirrors. But like dignity said, if it's casual, its fine. Why would overrun be useless? I haven't played in any events, but I have played people who do play in events and I take games off them, usually when I draw Overrun I just win. Why are the swords the only way to pressure control decks? What about my hexproof creatures like thrun and dungrove? or ascetism? (I've been playing for about 2 months, go easy on me lol) I do have a Garruk Primal Hunter but I took him out because I only have one of him, and he gets targeted and taken down pretty easily. The wolf runs seem to be really good, and just what I need, a Dungrove with trample would be the best. EDIT- Its all casual right now, I am still learning the game, but I do want to be able to beat good players with good decks (relatively speaking at the local level). So eventually (several months from now) I will want to compete in tourneys. with the intent to win, right now I just do the drafts or FNM for fun. Wow I just said a whole lot without saying anything... basically I want a tourney quality deck. | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
On November 06 2011 14:24 captainwaffles wrote: Why would overrun be useless? I haven't played in any events, but I have played people who do play in events and I take games off them, usually when I draw Overrun I just win. Why are the swords the only way to pressure control decks? What about my hexproof creatures like thrun and dungrove? or ascetism? (I've been playing for about 2 months, go easy on me lol) I do have a Garruk Primal Hunter but I took him out because I only have one of him, and he gets targeted and taken down pretty easily. The wolf runs seem to be really good, and just what I need, a Dungrove with trample would be the best. EDIT- Its all casual right now, I am still learning the game, but I do want to be able to beat good players with good decks (relatively speaking at the local level). So eventually (several months from now) I will want to compete in tourneys. with the intent to win, right now I just do the drafts or FNM for fun. Wow I just said a whole lot without saying anything... basically I want a tourney quality deck. Overrun is only really useful when you have a lot of little guys and if you can resolve it. Against an aggro deck you should win and so would not need overrun. Against a control deck if you manage to resolve it the control player did something wrong. You simply NEED swords to pressure. Reason being is that control decks will not let many creatures come out for you, and quite frankly having only thrun resolve when they will be siding in sword of feast and famine against a monogreen deck wont do anything. They can both block thrun all day, and walk right by him when attacking. The same can be said for body and mind. You need to make the most out of your creatures against control decks, and so equipment is needed. It just happens that swords are the best equipment. Asceticism once again does nothing for your creatures being countered and should not be able to resolve against a control deck anyways. Against aggro its just useless. Garruk, Primal hunter, even one of him, would make your deck much better. It doesn't matter that he gets focused down since most of the time you should be using him to draw cards. Also, if they focus him, they are not focusing you or your creatures. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On November 06 2011 14:57 dignity wrote: Overrun is only really useful when you have a lot of little guys and if you can resolve it. Against an aggro deck you should win and so would not need overrun. Against a control deck if you manage to resolve it the control player did something wrong. You simply NEED swords to pressure. Reason being is that control decks will not let many creatures come out for you, and quite frankly having only thrun resolve when they will be siding in sword of feast and famine against a monogreen deck wont do anything. They can both block thrun all day, and walk right by him when attacking. The same can be said for body and mind. You need to make the most out of your creatures against control decks, and so equipment is needed. It just happens that swords are the best equipment. Asceticism once again does nothing for your creatures being countered and should not be able to resolve against a control deck anyways. Against aggro its just useless. Garruk, Primal hunter, even one of him, would make your deck much better. It doesn't matter that he gets focused down since most of the time you should be using him to draw cards. Also, if they focus him, they are not focusing you or your creatures. I thank you for your insights sir, they are most useful :D EDIT- which swords? just found out there are several different cards. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On November 06 2011 15:06 captainwaffles wrote: I thank you for your insights sir, they are most useful :D EDIT- which swords? just found out there are several different cards. Sword of feast and famine, sword of war and peace, or sword of body and mind. | ||
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