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On November 17 2011 06:21 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:14 Risen wrote:On November 17 2011 06:13 Orpheos wrote:On November 17 2011 05:31 deth2munkies wrote:On November 16 2011 23:46 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back. Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies. And what happens when you mill your back from the brink? this is a very bad argument unless you plan on completely or getting close to milling your library. otherwise the same thing can be said for "what happens if you dont draw back from the brink?" except if you mill it, you have extra information, knowing you wont draw it and can play accordingly. Well.................................................. one has flashback. thats a benefit to moan, but "what if you mill brink" is not a hit against brink. what if you dont draw or mill moan?
It's not really a case of Brink vs Moan anyway, there are a thousand other cards that could/should be cut for the Moan. Snapcaster sounds like the weakest of the cards mentioned...Sensory Deprivation, a random Assistant, even Silent Departure is not as good as Moan.
But Back From the Brink is not a great card in most decks. It's extremely slow and a lot has to go right for it to do anything. In most cases, it either sits in your hand or gets 2 creatures back, in which case it's like an incredibly expensive Unburial Rites that they can Naturalize or play around. Even if it gets 3 creatures, it's not the greatest thing in the world. Nobody is lining up to first pick Ghoulcaller's Chant in U/B and it's often the same effect for less mana.
The deck Brink IS good in, though, is U/G and some forms of U/R.
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The Unburial Rites example is fine but Ghoulcaller's Chant? Those are two pretty different cards. I don't even think Judicator said that he 1st picked the Back from the Brink, so who cares? It's powerful and I doubt it's worse than his 23rd card.
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On November 17 2011 06:43 slyboogie wrote:
The Unburial Rites example is fine but Ghoulcaller's Chant? Those are two pretty different cards. I don't even think Judicator said that he 1st picked the Back from the Brink, so who cares? It's powerful and I doubt it's worse than his 23rd card.
How is Rites a different card than Chant except one of them can't flashback unless you target two zombies? Putting it into play vs into hand is only an issue of mana. Brink is 6 mana to even start getting things going.
The argument wasn't about Brink in the first place, it was about him cutting the Moan, and how he said every card in his deck is better. Maybe read the thread before you start posting?
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Stop talking about Brink if you don't want anyone to bring it up. And I've read the thread. You keep saying he should cut Snapcaster or Deranged Assistant for moan. We got it. Moan is great. I think it's right up there with Galvanic and Noble in the uncommons. But you sound like an asshole all the time, so moan sucks.
Edit: oh and Grasp of Phantoms is good too. And Midnight Haunting.
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On November 17 2011 06:48 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:43 slyboogie wrote:
The Unburial Rites example is fine but Ghoulcaller's Chant? Those are two pretty different cards. I don't even think Judicator said that he 1st picked the Back from the Brink, so who cares? It's powerful and I doubt it's worse than his 23rd card. How is Rites a different card than Chant except one of them can't flashback unless you target two zombies? Putting it into play vs into hand is only an issue of mana. Brink is 6 mana to even start getting things going. The argument wasn't about Brink in the first place, it was about him cutting the Moan, and how he said every card in his deck is better. Maybe read the thread before you start posting?
And then if you read his later posts he compared Brink v Moan and that's where it went from there...
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On November 17 2011 06:48 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:43 slyboogie wrote:
The Unburial Rites example is fine but Ghoulcaller's Chant? Those are two pretty different cards. I don't even think Judicator said that he 1st picked the Back from the Brink, so who cares? It's powerful and I doubt it's worse than his 23rd card. How is Rites a different card than Chant except one of them can't flashback unless you target two zombies? Putting it into play vs into hand is only an issue of mana. Brink is 6 mana to even start getting things going. The argument wasn't about Brink in the first place, it was about him cutting the Moan, and how he said every card in his deck is better. Maybe read the thread before you start posting?
Celerity, because after I resolve Back from the Brink, I have better lines of play than flashing back Moan meaning Back from the Brink effectively becomes a tutor for target creature card and put it into play at sorcery speed. Back from the Brink was a gamble though, I took it over Skaab Goliath pack 1 pick 2 just for the better upside.
As for the Rites vs Chant, it's not just a matter of mana. You are smoking good shit if you think it's only mana, all the rfg shit from the GY says hi and what are the best zombies in the set? Hmm.
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On November 17 2011 09:18 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:48 Cel.erity wrote:On November 17 2011 06:43 slyboogie wrote:
The Unburial Rites example is fine but Ghoulcaller's Chant? Those are two pretty different cards. I don't even think Judicator said that he 1st picked the Back from the Brink, so who cares? It's powerful and I doubt it's worse than his 23rd card. How is Rites a different card than Chant except one of them can't flashback unless you target two zombies? Putting it into play vs into hand is only an issue of mana. Brink is 6 mana to even start getting things going. The argument wasn't about Brink in the first place, it was about him cutting the Moan, and how he said every card in his deck is better. Maybe read the thread before you start posting? Celerity, because after I resolve Back from the Brink, I have better lines of play than flashing back Moan meaning Back from the Brink effectively becomes a tutor for target creature card and put it into play at sorcery speed. Back from the Brink was a gamble though, I took it over Skaab Goliath pack 1 pick 2 just for the better upside. As for the Rites vs Chant, it's not just a matter of mana. You are smoking good shit if you think it's only mana, all the rfg shit from the GY says hi and what are the best zombies in the set? Hmm.
1) I don't think that we are arguing that you picked BftB over Skaab Goliath. We are arguing that moan is way better than BftB (even though I think skaab is a better pick). From what it sounds like, its a self mill deck. This means that the moan goes up in value in your deck. Even despite this, I would pick moan over BftB. BftB means you're paying 6 mana for essentially nothing and to get the engine going. BftB is probably the slowest engine I can think of (maybe parallel lives in a bad token deck??) and you really shouldn't be playing it unless you have 0 lategame.
2) I'm confused by the rites v Chant argument. Are you saying that Chant is better because you can bring back a lot of zombies for cheap? Or saying that Unburial Rites is a better use of your mana? Could you clear up your second sentence?
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Back From The Brink is 6 mana to time walk yourself for a turn before you start playing stuff that is in your graveyard. Paying 6 to give "flashback" to your Stitched Drakes or Galvanic Juggernauts isn't much better than paying 6 to just get a Skaab Goliath, which is better than pretty much ever blue or black common/uncommon creature you could be playing once you have 6 mana up. Replaying Reaper or Sturmgeist is nice but you are winning games where you stick those guys anyways.
If you have the time to hit 6 mana, play a do-nothing card for 6 mana, then untap and "go off" (ie. play your random dudes out of the graveyard and eat up resources for your cards in hand/still in library) then you are probably winning that game anyways. Which is the problem with playing Brink over most of the cards you listed.
Moan doesn't give you tempo but how much do you need to care about gaining tempo when you are UB self-mill? And if you care so much about tempo that you aren't playing Moan (or Alchemy, or Mauler) over an extra Silent Departure, why are you playing a 6-mana do-nothing tempo black hole like Back From The Brink? And if you are playing Brink over Moan because it's a better lategame mana sink, why are you playing Galvanic Juggernaut over Moan when Moan is a card more suited to get you to the lategame where your Back From The Brink for Reaper and Sturmgeist (and pretty much nothing else that is worth 6 extra mana to replay but it's CARD ADVANTAGE so mise) is going to take over?
Like, your argument is "normally this would be wrong, but in THIS DECK it's right!" but you haven't provided a decklist where it is abundantly clear that being able to pay 6 mana to replay your random dudes (and take away your ability to feed those random dudes to zombies in hand) is better than getting 2-4 bodies for 1 card, especially since you apparently have like every blue and black card in the draft so it's not like there are many people who will have decks where the ability to grind out the lategame is more relevant than having 2-4 extra blockers.
I mean I like Brink, but not over almost any of the cards you have mentioned.
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Brink's shortcomings are masked by the fact that I can tempo any non-hexproof deck to oblivion. The 6 mana time-walk is irrelevant in this regards because they shouldn't have more than 1 or 2 legitimate threats on the board at that point. I eat a turn to cast Brink, sure, but then all combat is just awkward for them.
Why wouldn't I have the time to hit 6 mana? There is very little people can do to interact with my "removal". I don't want them to stick more creatures which would happen if I was playing Moan, I want them to spend their turns recasting things, constantly. Look I understand the power of Moan, it's just the role it plays in that deck like grinding it out is better filled by Departure and Deprivation. Juggernaut makes the combat difficult at times.
I guess I should post the list, it might be still sleeved from last Friday. If it still is, I'll go ahead and post it.
Edit:
The Rites vs. Chant thing is just what I said, Celerity was saying it fulfills the same role which ideally is true, but so inefficient that Chant doesn't see play.
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In other news, Worlds is going down and all I can say is that it's a sad day to be playing control.
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So I'm too sick to go to FNM and have work Saturday night, so I just did an online draft to make up for it.
Deck was pretty sick, had Grimoire/Splinterfright/Spider Spawning/Boneyard Wurm as win conditions with a Scholar, 2 Armored Skaabs, Selhoff Occultist, and Deranged Assistant as enablers. I actually got the Grimoire off (it prompted a scoop in response, but I tapped it :D) and lost in round 2 to someone who had Reaper of the Abyss, Olivia Voldaren, and Army of the Damned. I mean I can take 1 bomb, but 3? ><
T'was fun though, I was really hoping to avoid that guy till the finals, the other 2 decks looked pretty bad (although one had multiple departures and grasps but no win conditions barring Runechanter's Pike).
Highlights include:
Cackling Counterpart on Sturmgeist followed by swinging for 10 and 2 cards in the air.
Turn 3 Civilized Scholar going the distance (opponent was flooded or something).
Flashback Gnaw to the Bone (in sideboard) for 20 life (and still lost to army and a single interloper).
My opponent thinking (I know he was) "Hurr, he's chumping my Galvanic Juggernaut, what a noob."
I drafted the same UG deck last time I drafted online, except I had Cagebreakers instead of splinterfright and worse enablers. Was fun though 
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I just won a draft with this bad boy...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hgXA1.jpg)
I will admit that I got lucky each and every game, no deck I played had any actual removal for my maniac. I did play somebody who was milling themselves (U/B), and I won by milling him out.
EDIT: Woops...1,000 posts. Time to make a blog about it.
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Channel Fireball goes 1,2,3,5 after the swiss.
Damn.
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I'm not sure, but Conley winning that game from that position might be more impressive than Haypro beating Nestea.
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That last game with Conley had me going crazy. This week is nuts. MLG plus Worlds = insane amount of tabs open.
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Would there be any interest here in a mtgo draft stream? I don't know a lot about the process to get listed as a stream here on TL, but it does seem like the sort of stream that would fit in considering the other non-SC ones listed.
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Hiya, I'm the person who's considering starting a MTGO draft stream. I have just started getting back into the game, and as part of brushing up on my fundamentals, I have been drafting a lot of INN on MODO, when Melancholia mentioned that it may be interesting to start streaming my draftings.
I am far from the best player, but I've been doing rather well as of late. I have not set up any sort of streaming environment, nor have I contacted Wizards yet, as I want to see if there'd even be an audience at first.
Let me know if you'd be interested!
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No one reading this thread would watch you. There just isn't any interest.
Edit: It occurs to me that sarcasm doesn't translate through text well, sometimes.
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It's more that
1. I'm not sure how big the interest is
2. Not sure what Teamliquid (the admins mostly) thinks of hosting other games. I know they do Dota and other blizzard games, but not sure how much they want other games.
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EPT
