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On November 16 2011 05:21 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:
@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead."
It's cards behind when you decide after you drop 4 out of 5 win conditions into the graveyard do to Downyard, horrible alchemy keeps and not leaving counter magic open after casting sphinx, that the best way to win here is to mill your opponent. So now you have what 15 cards left in your deck while he has 35-40? and you still have to rebuy 1 alchemy just so you can find the curse so his 1/1 myrs off the shrine don't kill you first. Sure the deck is insane with turn 2 mana leak, turn 3 dissipate, turn 4 snapcaster into mana leak...etc but when it doesnt have draw like that the deck seems weak and behind in almost every situation. This is why as a Haunted Humans player I see turn one darkslick shores and I am actually excited.
Look, we need to stop using this example. Drownyarding yourself, in some situations, is understandable. Perhaps you don't have enough mana to flashback an alchemy or you had counter magic up and your opponent didn't cast anything. But you shouldn't be doing it very much - I don't know how the player you watched did this to himself before dying to Tempered Steel. I presume he's Drowning himself for an answer or something?
Secondly, this is classic small sample size. You see a guy self mill and hit his win-cons and say "Wow, that's bad." Because it is. It's just terrible. It's like when I used Deranged Assistant and hit Heretic's Punishment. Aww, that sucks. But you don't know the order of your cards. You can't - mill doesn't work like that. If he's digging for his ONE SINGLE answer against a deck that will certainly kill him, then that's what he has to do. You can't look solely at the results, the process was fine - if that situation was as you said.
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On November 16 2011 05:57 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:21 Shotcoder wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:
@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead."
It's cards behind when you decide after you drop 4 out of 5 win conditions into the graveyard do to Downyard, horrible alchemy keeps and not leaving counter magic open after casting sphinx, that the best way to win here is to mill your opponent. So now you have what 15 cards left in your deck while he has 35-40? and you still have to rebuy 1 alchemy just so you can find the curse so his 1/1 myrs off the shrine don't kill you first. Sure the deck is insane with turn 2 mana leak, turn 3 dissipate, turn 4 snapcaster into mana leak...etc but when it doesnt have draw like that the deck seems weak and behind in almost every situation. This is why as a Haunted Humans player I see turn one darkslick shores and I am actually excited. Look, we need to stop using this example. Drownyarding yourself, in some situations, is understandable. Perhaps you don't have enough mana to flashback an alchemy or you had counter magic up and your opponent didn't cast anything. But you shouldn't be doing it very much - I don't know how the player you watched did this to himself before dying to Tempered Steel. I presume he's Drowning himself for an answer or something? Secondly, this is classic small sample size. You see a guy self mill and hit his win-cons and say "Wow, that's bad." Because it is. It's just terrible. It's like when I used Deranged Assistant and hit Heretic's Punishment. Aww, that sucks. But you don't know the order of your cards. You can't - mill doesn't work like that. If he's digging for his ONE SINGLE answer against a deck that will certainly kill him, then that's what he has to do. You can't look solely at the results, the process was fine - if that situation was as you said.
Alright lets not use this example. but I still feel the deck is underwhelming and watching LSV run the gauntlet and my personal experiences vs the deck lead me to that conclusion. THis guy misplaying a couple times shouldn't have even been brought up.
I also am looking for a rogue deck to put together, preferably with 2-3 lily's main. What are your opinions on Grixis Vengeance running her?
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On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time.
I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night.
Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards.
The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows.
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Hello! New player to the MTG world here. One of my buddies talked me into getting an Event Deck and said that with a little bit of adding and subtracting, my deck could be pretty powerful. So of course I go to the local comic shop and pick up the white event deck. It's full of humans and enchants/artifacts that buff humans.
I wanted to come to my favorite community site (instead of TCG or anything like that) and ask for some advice on what cards I should be looking out for during draft nights and whatnot. Any help would be very much appreciated :D
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@Judicator: Sure, I can see the self-mill to death thing. It's happened to me a couple of times, trying to get too much fuel into the yard for Burning Vengeance or digging with Forbidden Alchemy. I can give you that one. I don't feel too strongly about Departure over Moan. Moan is certainly more powerful. But I don't think you're disagreeing about that, you're just taking Departure for its tempo/flashback/utility and I can understand that. But Forbidden Alchemy, especially because you have Back from the Brink and Snapcaster Mage, is still probably the card over Think Twice.
@Anktious: From what I've seen, the humans deck is pretty cool. It's actually pretty good, haha. Maybe cut 1 O-Ring for a Day? Some Heroes of Bladehold and 2 more Mirran Crusaders? That shouldn't be too pricey. And, obviously, if you can cut the Honors of the Pure and Silver Inlaid Dagger for any of the SoM Mythic Swords, then you should be feeling a lot better about the power level. War and Peace is probably the best one for Crusader...mmm...double strike.
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On November 16 2011 04:31 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:01 Orpheos wrote:On November 16 2011 03:53 Shotcoder wrote:On November 15 2011 19:57 slyboogie wrote:On November 15 2011 18:23 Shotcoder wrote:
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.
Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate. Depends on the board-state and turn doesn't it? I mean, I'd rather have Batterskull 80% of the time, but depends right? Also, bad pilots don't speak to the deck's strength. And what do you mean about the Drownyard? You saw a U/B Control player milling himself often? It was a late turn like 10-12 and the tempered steel player(who was my friend) landed a shrine of loyal legions the turn before. I think the pilot was just really bad as he later finished the game by having to cast a black sun for 0 just so he didnt deck himself the following turn. He also was the one who drownyarded himself hitting a sphinx and another batterskull. Yes I understand throwing cards into the graveyard with Alchemy and drownyard to feed the value of Snapcaster but the fact you can dump a threat of drownyard makes me want to run the card a lot less and the deck a lot less. no the drownyard player is just awful. he shouldnt be just milling himself every fucking turn. drownyard is mostly just a land in aggro matchups, but in control matchups its quite possibly one of the most powerful cards ever printed. the best thing is you get to side in more lands(something control decks have been wanting to do for a long time) while still siding in the best card ever for the matchup. he didnt drownyard himself every turn he did it once or twice, but the fact he was also casting forbidden Alchemy put him 22 cards behind the tempered steel player(this isn't even counting think twices) so drownyarding the tempered steel player later in the game turned out to be too slow. This is also another reason I don't play Control, I prefer aggro or tempo decks. Sittign there playing reactive just kills me. Also can I ask why Ponder isn't seeing play in any control decks right now?
I think the main thing with ponder is that every control deck right now runs snapcasters and flashing back a ponder does nothing since its sorcery speed. It takes away from the draw-go style of decks. That said, if you are not playing snapcasters they are still great. They just don't fit into the current meta.
Theres also forbidden alchemy, which synergizes with snapcasters better, making ponder less preferable. Another thing to note is that current combo decks use the graveyard (ooze decks) and so actually throwing things you see on top of your library is preferable to rearranging them.
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On November 16 2011 08:00 slyboogie wrote:
@Judicator: Sure, I can see the self-mill to death thing. It's happened to me a couple of times, trying to get too much fuel into the yard for Burning Vengeance or digging with Forbidden Alchemy. I can give you that one. I don't feel too strongly about Departure over Moan. Moan is certainly more powerful. But I don't think you're disagreeing about that, you're just taking Departure for its tempo/flashback/utility and I can understand that. But Forbidden Alchemy, especially because you have Back from the Brink and Snapcaster Mage, is still probably the card over Think Twice.
@Anktious: From what I've seen, the humans deck is pretty cool. It's actually pretty good, haha. Maybe cut 1 O-Ring for a Day? Some Heroes of Bladehold and 2 more Mirran Crusaders? That shouldn't be too pricey. And, obviously, if you can cut the Honors of the Pure and Silver Inlaid Dagger for any of the SoM Mythic Swords, then you should be feeling a lot better about the power level. War and Peace is probably the best one for Crusader...mmm...double strike.
Armored Skaab + Alchemy is enough. I don't need the Second Alchemy in that regards and I actually couldn't play the 2nd Alchemy over the first Skaab either.
Ponder doesn't see play because we don't have a reliable way of shuffling the the deck.
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On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows.
The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back.
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As much as we argue with each other in this thread we get things discussed in a somewhat meaningful way even if we all end up hating each other afterwards.
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is this thread also for general magic discussion or is it only for MTG:O? just wondering - i'm a big irl player who hasn't really tried online much
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On November 16 2011 07:38 Anktious wrote:
Hello! New player to the MTG world here. One of my buddies talked me into getting an Event Deck and said that with a little bit of adding and subtracting, my deck could be pretty powerful. So of course I go to the local comic shop and pick up the white event deck. It's full of humans and enchants/artifacts that buff humans.
I wanted to come to my favorite community site (instead of TCG or anything like that) and ask for some advice on what cards I should be looking out for during draft nights and whatnot. Any help would be very much appreciated :D
Hey, welcome, these may not be the best decklists but will give you an idea, you can go down the GW Humans which is more of an aggro punch you in the face style deck or their is UW humans which a slightly slower more "tempo" style deck
GW - http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=238031
UW - http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=255395
Again these are just shells to build from/on but most lists won't look drastically different.
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ponder really is just a horrific card in control. have you actually played it without fetchlands?
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On November 16 2011 10:14 dmasterding wrote:
is this thread also for general magic discussion or is it only for MTG:O? just wondering - i'm a big irl player who hasn't really tried online much
There really is no difference between the two besides the fact that one is online.
And about the ponder thing. I honestly prefer sleight of hand over ponder after playing with both (played sleight of hand because ponder is banned in modern). Ponder is just not as good as preordain in a vacuum.
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On November 16 2011 10:31 Orpheos wrote:
ponder really is just a horrific card in control. have you actually played it without fetchlands?
I've only played it in non control decks like bant pod and Crusader/Hero blade, and I liked it a lot. Was running it + think twice instead of Alchemy.
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Ponder is not a bad card at all. Applying the turbo xerox rule to any deck makes it better.
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On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back.
Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies.
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On November 16 2011 23:46 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back. Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies.
And what happens when you mill your back from the brink?
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On November 17 2011 05:31 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:46 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back. Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies. And what happens when you mill your back from the brink?
this is a very bad argument unless you plan on completely or getting close to milling your library. otherwise the same thing can be said for "what happens if you dont draw back from the brink?" except if you mill it, you have extra information, knowing you wont draw it and can play accordingly.
on a related note, one of the cards you can make this argument for is lab maniac, because the card itself hinges on the fact that you want to mill yourself completely
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On November 17 2011 06:13 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:31 deth2munkies wrote:On November 16 2011 23:46 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back. Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies. And what happens when you mill your back from the brink? this is a very bad argument unless you plan on completely or getting close to milling your library. otherwise the same thing can be said for "what happens if you dont draw back from the brink?" except if you mill it, you have extra information, knowing you wont draw it and can play accordingly.
Well.................................................. one has flashback.
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On November 17 2011 06:14 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:13 Orpheos wrote:On November 17 2011 05:31 deth2munkies wrote:On November 16 2011 23:46 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 09:13 Cel.erity wrote:On November 16 2011 07:25 Judicator wrote:On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead." On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster? Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this: Forbidden Alchemy Victim of the Night Dead Weight Strumgeist You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck. Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time. I would agree with you if...I didn't have the cards that I did, there isn't a need for a second Forbidden in that deck. So I just swapped it out for a Think Twice. The other option you guys didn't consider was the serious threat of me milling myself out which I almost did 3 times that night. Here's the thing with 2nd Forbidden vs. Think Twice in that situation and why I ran a third Silent over the Moan. Moan I don't need because of Back from the Brink and I didn't care for the 2/2s, any of them. Claustrophobia with Silent on turn 4 means most decks will not interact with me on turns 5 and 6. I know it's two cards, but again, I don't give a shit about literally anything that they can play outside of Heretic's Punishment. My lines of play were much better and smoother in that regards. The second Forbidden doesn't do anything for me because again, milling a Think Twice is better than milling a Forbidden Alchemy with my deck. Secondly and most importantly, the lines of play from aggressively playing Silent Departure (again I decided to run 3), is better with a Think Twice than a 2nd Alchemy. The Alchemy is good only if I had a few powerful cards that I needed to reach, but my deck was pretty caulk full of them. The only real card that I was missing was a Murder of Crows. The deck as you listed it isn't even that good, it's just an above average U/B deck, and not playing Moan in self-mill just doesn't make sense. It's one of the top uncommons in the set, and easily better than something like Back From the Brink/Think Twice/Snapcaster Mage. But what else is new, this thread makes my brain bleed every time I check it, I was foolish to venture back. Because most UB mill yourself decks didn't have my deck's card power. 4 2/2 Zombies off of 1 card is powerful, but Back from the Brink copying everything I need it to from my mills is tons better to do with my 6+ mana than flashing back a Moan. I would disagree about Moan > Back from the Brink too, Moan is better in a vacuum, Back is better if your deck supports it. I rather get 3/4 flyers and 5/5 juggernauts than 2/2 Zombies. And what happens when you mill your back from the brink? this is a very bad argument unless you plan on completely or getting close to milling your library. otherwise the same thing can be said for "what happens if you dont draw back from the brink?" except if you mill it, you have extra information, knowing you wont draw it and can play accordingly. Well.................................................. one has flashback.
thats a benefit to moan, but "what if you mill brink" is not a hit against brink. what if you dont draw or mill moan?
*also i would like to note that I agree that he should have been running moan, im just pointing out something about the argument.
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EPT
