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Cixah
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11285 Posts
November 14 2011 05:40 GMT
#1981
I don't even think it needs Mikaeus, the Red Curse does the job well enough and arguably better with inkmoth turning into a 5 swing kill. 3 if you stick a T-steel too. It's no where near its old power, but still playable by all means.
Hug The Goat! Hug the Goat! Hug the Goat!
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
November 14 2011 05:41 GMT
#1982
On November 14 2011 14:34 dignity wrote:
People still play t-steel?

I thought that deck died with the rotation of the overseer. Mikaeus is nowhere near as good in that deck.


yea the deck was pretty much

4 inkmoth
16 plains

3 mox
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 memnite
4 signal pest
4 spine thopter
4 vault Skirge

4 Glint Hawk Idol
4 tempered Steel
3 Oblivion Ring
4 dispatch
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions

That's a rough estimate and sadly he turn 2 or 3'd a tempered steel both games he won.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
November 14 2011 17:25 GMT
#1983
Honestly, every time I saw tempered steel played pre-rotation, Steel Overseer wasn't so much the lynchpin as Ornithopter was. Giving them 16 fliers (4 Vault Skirge, 4 Ornithopter, 4 Signal Pest, 4 Glint Hawk Idol) meant they could just ignore ground beaters, and having 8 free guys (4 Ornithopter, 4 Memnite) turned on Mox Opal faster.

That said, Tempered Steel is one of those decks that can goddraw and turn 3 you or do nothing for 6-7 turns. It's inconsistent, but extraordinarily powerful when you get lucky.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
November 14 2011 18:02 GMT
#1984
On November 11 2011 03:53 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2011 01:33 Judicator wrote:
On November 11 2011 01:02 Risen wrote:
On November 10 2011 21:44 Judicator wrote:
On November 10 2011 15:06 slyboogie wrote:
Dude, Day of Judgement into Liliana seems awesome. But I don't play Solar Flare.

Can you expand on these opening plays of Solar Flare? From what I've seen, I usually see Solar Flare pilots desperately trying to not stumble through turns 2-4. There isn't a lot to tap out for, there's really nothing to do except sit on Mana Leak, Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy. If aggro manages to resolve a mid level threat, the Flare player has to toss a Doomblade or GftT at it, which is blech to me.

Just curious to know.


I tap out for Day, they play an Elspeth and Garruk, and I am arguably in a worse position than I was pre-turn 4 Day. I don't need to Leak a lot of things, only the relevant things, if I can go resolve turn 3 Liliana and +1 it, it's better than trying to counter their turn 4 play (Relentless or Simulacrum) and puts me in a better position for a Thrun drop. If they go turn 3 EoT Haunting, I am cool with that too. Even if they resolve a Swords, it's just plain meh against me. They aren't going to do anything spectacular against me with Lily at 4, which is vastly different than Lily at 3 or 1. Bladehold/Primal Hunter are the two cards I actually need to worry about the most. The Swords, while tough, isn't that big of a deal.


Playing against my pal's UB deck the midnight haunting EOT has been a real pain for him to deal with (running a weird UW but just consider it a netdeck of the recent UW blades, it's close enough). How do you deal with it? I understand you play solar flare but your opening moves look very similar to the UB he's running if I'm not too far off.


He plays 1/1 Flyers I play 6/6s. The spirits are annoying, but until Sword hits, they really don't matter. Plus on 5 and 6 I can BSZ for 1 and still leave counter mana open. He'll never resolve a meaningful Swords. Basically it's tempo in that they want to equip and swing, and you can play around that. Also, that match is free if he boarded in Curse of Death's Hold.


Perfect. I'll let him know about this. Will make my life considerably harder haha

Edit: The usual game goes T1 doomed traveler/champion of the parish, T2 honor of the pure/grand abolisher. He has to blow 2 mana removing the abolisher which allows me to land a crusader/geist/sword followed by T4 haunting/equip depending on the situation. What are his options?

Your answer seems like a good response, but grand abolisher is a real dayfucker. If it works out that real play verifies what you do that's fine. I'm theorycrafting here and I know it, so I'm already taking what I do with a grain of salt before I have him make those changes


It depends on the hand, unless it's double Abolisher, you're sitting alright. The Abolisher isn't counter worthy though. If his line of play is Abolisher (killed on your turn) to turn 3 Swords, that's not terrible either since you have 2 turns if not more before that Sword actually becomes active.
Get it by your hands...
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
November 14 2011 19:09 GMT
#1985
Just got a turn 5 kill in ISD draft: turn 3 Geist of Saint Traft, turn 4 Spectral Flight, turn 5 Inquisitor's Flail gg.

I know nobody cares, but I had to brag about it somewhere. Inquisitor's Flail surprisingly very good for me in most u/w decks as well. The game prior, I won by casting Feeling of Dread and then Flailing up my Civilized Scholar.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
November 14 2011 19:41 GMT
#1986
Flail, Trepidation Blade make bad decks win, same goes for Flight.

Anyways last Friday I drafted the nuts UB mill yourself deck. I had to cut a Forbidden Alchemy and an Armored Skaab cause the card power of the deck was stupidly high.

Snapcaster, Reaper, Sturmgeist, Back from the Brink, Drownyard, 2x Claustrophobia, 3x Silents, Grasp, Sensory Depra, Alchemy, Think Twice, Stitchers, Scholar, Victim, Moan. The literal nuts, I didn't give a shit about any deck that I could have ran into, felt like playing block constructed.

I literally had 31 playables before I had to start cutting.
Get it by your hands...
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 03:57:17
November 15 2011 03:48 GMT
#1987
I seen some silly things in ISD draft. My friend actually successfully won a game by lab maniac in draft, which was about the silliest thing to have happened so far.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
November 15 2011 04:53 GMT
#1988
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster?
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
November 15 2011 09:23 GMT
#1989
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.

Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
November 15 2011 10:57 GMT
#1990
On November 15 2011 18:23 Shotcoder wrote:
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.

Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate.


Depends on the board-state and turn doesn't it? I mean, I'd rather have Batterskull 80% of the time, but depends right? Also, bad pilots don't speak to the deck's strength. And what do you mean about the Drownyard? You saw a U/B Control player milling himself often?
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
November 15 2011 15:53 GMT
#1991
On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster?


Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this:

Forbidden Alchemy
Victim of the Night
Dead Weight
Strumgeist

You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck.
Get it by your hands...
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 16:05:21
November 15 2011 16:04 GMT
#1992
armored skaab gets super awkward in too many multiples unless you have like infi skaab goliath+stitched drake. or a lab maniac and unburial rites =P. i think in general ive been dialing down the amount of enablers i try to get in the UB mill yourself. deranged alchemist is the only one i pick super high anymore. its mostly because you tend to get so much good removal and enablers but not as many finishers, so milling yourself too much without an evasive dude to kill them gets awkward. that being said im trying to stay away from blue/x decks cause im getting bored of them. got forced into it last FNM becuase the dude next to me passed 3rd pick murder of crows and 7th pick civilized scholar.

you werent running a moan? 0_0

Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
November 15 2011 16:37 GMT
#1993
No. I actually didn't need it. I'd take Sensory Depravation over it any day. Moan doesn't give me tempo, I don't care about the 2/2s outside of triggering Morbid. I have Back from the Brink which is a better mana dump later on than Moan's flashback, have a Grasp and 2 Silent Departures which again are better tempo plays.

I wasn't playing the typical UB mill yourself deck, it was literally a controlled mill yourself deck like one you might see in Block constructed.
Get it by your hands...
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
November 15 2011 18:32 GMT
#1994
i see what you mean, but moan just gives so much value and so much inevitability that im very surprised you cut it. its one of the cards that i can always see running in black decks.

i might have cut a silent departure for it. silent departure gets abit worse when you arent putting a bunch of pressure.
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
November 15 2011 18:53 GMT
#1995
On November 15 2011 19:57 slyboogie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 18:23 Shotcoder wrote:
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.

Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate.


Depends on the board-state and turn doesn't it? I mean, I'd rather have Batterskull 80% of the time, but depends right? Also, bad pilots don't speak to the deck's strength. And what do you mean about the Drownyard? You saw a U/B Control player milling himself often?



It was a late turn like 10-12 and the tempered steel player(who was my friend) landed a shrine of loyal legions the turn before. I think the pilot was just really bad as he later finished the game by having to cast a black sun for 0 just so he didnt deck himself the following turn. He also was the one who drownyarded himself hitting a sphinx and another batterskull. Yes I understand throwing cards into the graveyard with Alchemy and drownyard to feed the value of Snapcaster but the fact you can dump a threat of drownyard makes me want to run the card a lot less and the deck a lot less.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
November 15 2011 19:01 GMT
#1996
On November 16 2011 03:53 Shotcoder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 19:57 slyboogie wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:23 Shotcoder wrote:
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.

Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate.


Depends on the board-state and turn doesn't it? I mean, I'd rather have Batterskull 80% of the time, but depends right? Also, bad pilots don't speak to the deck's strength. And what do you mean about the Drownyard? You saw a U/B Control player milling himself often?



It was a late turn like 10-12 and the tempered steel player(who was my friend) landed a shrine of loyal legions the turn before. I think the pilot was just really bad as he later finished the game by having to cast a black sun for 0 just so he didnt deck himself the following turn. He also was the one who drownyarded himself hitting a sphinx and another batterskull. Yes I understand throwing cards into the graveyard with Alchemy and drownyard to feed the value of Snapcaster but the fact you can dump a threat of drownyard makes me want to run the card a lot less and the deck a lot less.


no the drownyard player is just awful. he shouldnt be just milling himself every fucking turn.
drownyard is mostly just a land in aggro matchups, but in control matchups its quite possibly one of the most powerful cards ever printed. the best thing is you get to side in more lands(something control decks have been wanting to do for a long time) while still siding in the best card ever for the matchup.
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
November 15 2011 19:31 GMT
#1997
On November 16 2011 04:01 Orpheos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2011 03:53 Shotcoder wrote:
On November 15 2011 19:57 slyboogie wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:23 Shotcoder wrote:
Watching LSV run the Gauntlet with UB control makes me wonder about the deck quite a bit. I knew it was a bit iffy watching it a couple times but this just makes my opinion of it that much worse. It doesn't help every singe time I've seen the deck drownyard they've dumped a win condition in the bin and can't finish because of it.

Also I've seen some questionable pilots, by that I mean casting forbidden alchemy, seeing island, island, Batterskull, negate vs tempered steel and keeping negate.


Depends on the board-state and turn doesn't it? I mean, I'd rather have Batterskull 80% of the time, but depends right? Also, bad pilots don't speak to the deck's strength. And what do you mean about the Drownyard? You saw a U/B Control player milling himself often?



It was a late turn like 10-12 and the tempered steel player(who was my friend) landed a shrine of loyal legions the turn before. I think the pilot was just really bad as he later finished the game by having to cast a black sun for 0 just so he didnt deck himself the following turn. He also was the one who drownyarded himself hitting a sphinx and another batterskull. Yes I understand throwing cards into the graveyard with Alchemy and drownyard to feed the value of Snapcaster but the fact you can dump a threat of drownyard makes me want to run the card a lot less and the deck a lot less.


no the drownyard player is just awful. he shouldnt be just milling himself every fucking turn.
drownyard is mostly just a land in aggro matchups, but in control matchups its quite possibly one of the most powerful cards ever printed. the best thing is you get to side in more lands(something control decks have been wanting to do for a long time) while still siding in the best card ever for the matchup.


he didnt drownyard himself every turn he did it once or twice, but the fact he was also casting forbidden Alchemy put him 22 cards behind the tempered steel player(this isn't even counting think twices) so drownyarding the tempered steel player later in the game turned out to be too slow. This is also another reason I don't play Control, I prefer aggro or tempo decks. Sittign there playing reactive just kills me.

Also can I ask why Ponder isn't seeing play in any control decks right now?
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
November 15 2011 20:02 GMT
#1998
@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead."

On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster?


Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this:

Forbidden Alchemy
Victim of the Night
Dead Weight
Strumgeist

You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck.


Who cares? One of those cards is clearly the right card in every situation. And you're more likely to see at least one land and one of your 15-23rd cards, through sheer statistics. That's just one situation where all 4 cards were playable. It could have been Island, Silent Departure, Think Twice and Stitcher's Apprentice - you have no way of knowing, it's like new players getting mad that they're getting milled. It's just confirmation bias. I'm quite sure that Forbidden Alchemy is better than Think Twice at least more that half the time.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
November 15 2011 20:21 GMT
#1999
On November 16 2011 05:02 slyboogie wrote:
@Shotcoder I don't know why he's Drownyarding himself at all. So he's playing Tempered Steel, managed to get to the 4 land necessary for Nephalia Drownyard and used it twice at the end of his opponents turn? Was there nothing to counterspell? And casting Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy isn't putting you "cards behind." It would be "cards ahead."



It's cards behind when you decide after you drop 4 out of 5 win conditions into the graveyard do to Downyard, horrible alchemy keeps and not leaving counter magic open after casting sphinx, that the best way to win here is to mill your opponent. So now you have what 15 cards left in your deck while he has 35-40? and you still have to rebuy 1 alchemy just so you can find the curse so his 1/1 myrs off the shrine don't kill you first.

Sure the deck is insane with turn 2 mana leak, turn 3 dissipate, turn 4 snapcaster into mana leak...etc but when it doesnt have draw like that the deck seems weak and behind in almost every situation. This is why as a Haunted Humans player I see turn one darkslick shores and I am actually excited.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
November 15 2011 20:30 GMT
#2000
On November 16 2011 00:53 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 13:53 slyboogie wrote:
Wouldn't you rather play the Forbidden Alchemy instead of the Think Twice? Especially with all that blue flashback and a Snapcaster?


Because when you go Forbidden Alchemy end of turn and see this:

Forbidden Alchemy
Victim of the Night
Dead Weight
Strumgeist

You know the deck isn't your average UB deck. Like I wasn't playing Makeshift Mauler or the Moan because I actually had better cards than those. I was cutting from 31 and those 8 cards were easily playable in any other UB deck.


You weren't playing Moan? That card is much better than most of the cards you have listed.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
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