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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
A fire immune mob can have its immunity broken by conviction/lower res if they are sufficiently leveled, allowing you to kill these mobs with fire. The most common is the Infinity rune word on an act 2 merc (its a 2h weapon rune word). If I remember correctly, there are only like 1 or 2 specific mobs in the game that cannot have their immunities broken, where every other mob can. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 14 2018 13:11 Atreides wrote: I mean basically everyone skips juggernaut at high GR solely cuz trapped not working. Other resistances would not make you play or gear different, it would make you flip more rifts when you got that mob type. And tbh, the fishing for the perfect rift is the part that (i assume) most people object to the most already. xd I agree 100% with above post. You can play almost anything in T13 if you want to play around, or not have infinite scaling, or whatever. You usually get to play some random hybrid for a few hours at the start of season. I like d3 and basically can play it srsly for a couple months each year. I just tryhard every third or fourth season or something. I definitely agree they could do something more interesting for each season though. Even some sort of seasonal extra affix on rift guardians or whatever. something. A LOT of people never go above GR 70, and a quite small percentage go above 100. Rifting at 110+ is a completely different game. And if you don't like it, theres an active speedfarm meta anyways. For the record, I have also played a lot of Grim Dawn and highly recommend it if you want that type of arpg solo experience once in a while. I want to second this. Being able to jump back into D3 at almost any time is the biggest reason I still ove the game. The lack of skill trees helps with this since it is impossible to have a character nerfed into being useless. It also allows you to just rebuild a character for the simple sake of variety, which was always something that annoyed me about D2. I understand the love of skill trees, however. It is fun to build a character or set of characters(Xcom or Invisible INC) to do a specific thing so well that it breaks the game. The fun of poking at the edge of a system until it breaks in truly stupid ways is always fun. But I often feel these systems suffer form being designed from the endgame backwards, which results in having the impact of any given skill/power being slowly trickled out over 20-30 hours. It is fine for people willing to commit to a build with a holistic understanding of the entire game. Not so good for people trying to get into ARPGs or just play in a more relaxed manner. In the world of lots of ARPGs, the D3 is a great place for people to experiment a style of game they don’t normally get into. Path of Exile is where they go when they want to get into the preverbal “Real Shit”. Side note: The casual/hardcore dichotomy with more drug themed referenced, like “recreational”, “mind expanding” and “The Real Shit”. They evoke the real reasons why people get into harder and more complex games, which is chasing that high. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On November 15 2018 02:47 Alventenie wrote: Keep in mind that you can break immunities. Immune only means they are over the max resistance cap for that damage type. A fire immune mob can have its immunity broken by conviction/lower res if they are sufficiently leveled, allowing you to kill these mobs with fire. The most common is the Infinity rune word on an act 2 merc (its a 2h weapon rune word). If I remember correctly, there are only like 1 or 2 specific mobs in the game that cannot have their immunities broken, where every other mob can. In theory yes, in practice as a solo player you'll be stuck with lvl2 lower res until you can make Infinity, which means you've been farming hell already for quite some time. And there are many fire and cold immunes at 106-140% which you can't break with just lower res. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On November 15 2018 03:05 Plansix wrote: In the world of lots of ARPGs, the D3 is a great place for people to experiment a style of game they don’t normally get into. Path of Exile is where they go when they want to get into the preverbal “Real Shit”. Side note: The casual/hardcore dichotomy with more drug themed referenced, like “recreational”, “mind expanding” and “The Real Shit”. They evoke the real reasons why people get into harder and more complex games, which is chasing that high. Part of that high also comes from preparing for bosses/runs to grind for specific non-guaranteed, ultra-rare items that are seen as being worth a lot of time and money (in-game currency or real money). A few D2 players I know personally (and countless others I don't know personally) would start getting that high feeling when they started the game and checked all of their gear to do a certain run, similar to feeling the burn from a cigarette, and each boss attempt gave them the same feeling as the nicotine or, say, taking a drink of alcohol and pulling the lever to a slot machine would give a drinker and gambler (or any number of other comparisons related to drugs or gambling). In D2, there were eventually plenty of sites where you could buy/sell/trade items (some of which were trustworthy, just with most of those sites were for any game), but with PoE that feeling gets blown up because of the game's deeper/richer/extreme economy, active community and trading community and ways to connect with the community, the ability watch other people "pull the lever" and fail or succeed, plus loads of other things. Targeting or, arguably more accurately, preying on an audience that is drawn to systems/games that give those feelings alongside engaging gameplay and different forms of character and personal progression, making it so people can "walk in and have a drink at the bar" without gambling (but are still in the casino and can easily spend a few bucks on a machine if they want), the parallels between drugs and gambling and these kinds of free-to-play action games (PC and mobile) are nearly endless. That is not to say everyone who plays PoE, or plays PoE as a hardcore player, nor even plays PoE as a extremely hardcore player who spends a lot of money on the game is chasing a certain high, but the parallels are there. Not everyone who goes to Vegas is an addict, plenty of people enjoy everything they go there for and they have the expendable income for it and they have fun, "win" or "lose." Now, when I hear about Diablo on mobile devices being made by a Chinese mobile (gacha) game team... If it's trying to meet a middle ground between D3's open, fun, endlessly playable, easily experimental gameplay and D2/PoE and [insert mobile arpg/mmo with a predatory business model here], I expect it to be a failure for everyone who leans more to the D3 or PoE areas of that misshapen Venn Diagram (for the gameplay alone, from what I've seen), and a success (depending on your perspective and definition of success) for everyone who leans more to the gambling/high-chasing or mobile game areas of the diagram and who either prefer a simpler combat system or don't really care what the combat system is as long as they can chase their high. But, if the game doesn't have any in-game trading systems and somehow none pop up online, I think it will be a failure for a large chunk of the latter group as well. Or, if the gameplay is lacking in some ways such as gearing up for specific bosses/runs, that feeling of "lighting up" won't exist... I talked about this for hours with someone recently, it's really interesting to me in some ways and pretty disgusting to me in other ways to be frank. Anyhow. -- Interesting (for lack of a better word) to see more people making more hyper-subjective pros and cons lists about D2 and D3 and pretending that they're being objective too. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On November 15 2018 03:05 Plansix wrote: I want to second this. Being able to jump back into D3 at almost any time is the biggest reason I still ove the game. The lack of skill trees helps with this since it is impossible to have a character nerfed into being useless. It also allows you to just rebuild a character for the simple sake of variety, which was always something that annoyed me about D2. I understand the love of skill trees, however. It is fun to build a character or set of characters(Xcom or Invisible INC) to do a specific thing so well that it breaks the game. The fun of poking at the edge of a system until it breaks in truly stupid ways is always fun. But I often feel these systems suffer form being designed from the endgame backwards, which results in having the impact of any given skill/power being slowly trickled out over 20-30 hours. It is fine for people willing to commit to a build with a holistic understanding of the entire game. Not so good for people trying to get into ARPGs or just play in a more relaxed manner. In the world of lots of ARPGs, the D3 is a great place for people to experiment a style of game they don’t normally get into. Path of Exile is where they go when they want to get into the preverbal “Real Shit”. Side note: The casual/hardcore dichotomy with more drug themed referenced, like “recreational”, “mind expanding” and “The Real Shit”. They evoke the real reasons why people get into harder and more complex games, which is chasing that high. Keep in mind that D2 was an extremely casual game as well. The game was really easy even in Hell, which is why there was such a wide range of builds. And the game never got harder, so making a top tier build was entirely personal challenge. There was the option and (somewhat) tangible benefit to going hardcore grinding, but the game wasn't unplayable if you didn't. There's really no reason why D2 couldn't have more flexibility in respeccing characters, or D3 having more flexibility in builds. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
but those two years were intense joy for the game. this game has been out what, 5+ years now? many more people got a lot more hours out of this game but were not impacted as greatly. personally i didn't like PoE and i thought i dived sufficiently into that game. for someone like me who looks up builds and netdecks, i think the builds and skills are a lot less versatile than the feel it gives off. there are more ways to gear up until the point of gear optimization but at that point the play and the feel of the game isn't so different than d3. i know people who tout freedom but they go ahead and do the same build every season. but then there are the people who make the builds and theorycraft, do the math and check viability all on their own. i can see for them that the game can be extremely complex. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17554 Posts
Up until today I got to 70/75 with finished season chapters. So, here are some of my thoughts: Power spikes in D3 are ridiculous: 10 level gap between gear is actually enormous (quintuple the damage basically). Also, I have pretty fresh experience with char that just got to 70 and started doing adventure mode. So, kitted out in really good rares and some legendaries I was hitting up to 15m damage. I was able to do T4 and GR20 with it with some trouble (still went with 5+ minutes to spare in GR20). Now, after finishing the season chapters I got full Tal Rasha's set. Put it on, with exactly the same skill setup I am now hitting 150m damage. That's a difference of a factor of 10 by swapping 6 lvl 70 rares for 6 lvl 70 set items... Also, I have absolutely no idea why they introduced so many difficulty levels. Anything below Torment I can be considered a joke basically (T1 feels pretty much like D1/D2 normal) and you can't even start that high with new char (max is expert which is like really easy). | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
Tal Rasha meteor is a great build that can get you to GR 85 or so with non ancients, and to gr 100 without augments. Should basically instantly get you your 70 so you can get primals even missing a couple uniques. I've never personally cleared more than a GR109 with it and I fished a SHITLOAD of 110's one season. That was at around 1400 paragon. But yes the power increases are insane, but so is the difficulty scaling as you go up in GRs. The sub torment levels are basically only for leveling now days, and even then as soon as you get a lvl 70 weapon at level 40 you immediately go into torments. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
I also suspect the arguably strange/flawed difficulty ramp up and/or difficulties has a lot to do with the direction they were going with items and runes in particular very early on. At one time, you wouldn't have just been picking up armor and weapons and follower items and items your character couldn't use, items drops could also be runes (to slot into your abilities before they changed the rune design) which were meant to have varying stats and could have potentially smoothed out that power ramp — potions were also a thing and could have been yet another item drop taking up yet more potential equipment drops unless they were in a separate "drop pool" from weapons and armor. That said, the auction house and trading system was intended to be a large part of the game which would have undeniably made the power ramp more dramatic for anyone who used the trading system... So it is still confusing why the power ramp/difficulty is the way it is, at least to me. It'd be interesting to go back in time and see everything the team was trying out and thinking. As for changing it to better fit player needs right now, idk, either the ship has sailed and it's just the way it is or there would have to be a big revamp and number crunching in a new expansion. | ||
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
On November 14 2018 07:09 Gorsameth wrote: To you D3's skill system is a con, to others (like myself) its a pro because we can try out different skills and combinations and have fun without re-leveling a new character every single time. Its meant that I have spend many more hours on D3 then I ever did on D2. Not sure I would classify D2 bosses are more mechanically challenging either, I mostly remember running away a lot trying not to get 2 shot. I think we can differentiate between respecs and skill trees. I always suspected that rigid skill trees would make people less likely to experiment and just copy the most versatile or biggest top tier spec. I dislike the skill system in D3 for a different reason, I think the skill system in d3 kinda added forced the design of adding 10000% modifiers to skills on equipment since you couldnt specialize in that skill normally. That being said, how do you fellas feel about trading? I know a lot of people probably miss the community aspect of trading gear and stuff, but I thik the flip side to that is that they'd have to compensate drop rates so you couldnt farm your own gear reliabily for yourself. | ||
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byte-Curious
Mexico107 Posts
On November 15 2018 11:58 Manit0u wrote: Also, I have absolutely no idea why they introduced so many difficulty levels. Anything below Torment I can be considered a joke basically (T1 feels pretty much like D1/D2 normal) and you can't even start that high with new char (max is expert which is like really easy). I just leveled a Monk on Switch and the lower difficulties are definitely necessary. Especially below 20, I almost ripped a couple of times on Normal (Hardcore). Bumped it up to Expert and Master once I had some skill synergies going, but without legendaries you definitely wouldn't go Torment 1 whilst leveling, especially on HC. But yeah, especially with season journeys, where you get your first set basically guaranteed, the spikes are absurd. I was barely hanging on at T4 (almost died on the A2 keywarden), Paragon 50, got the 6p bonus and suddenly was wrecking so much ass that I could skip straight to T8 where I was getting ten Paragon Levels per Rift. On November 15 2018 20:35 lestye wrote: I know a lot of people probably miss the community aspect of trading gear and stuff, but I thik the flip side to that is that they'd have to compensate drop rates so you couldnt farm your own gear reliabily for yourself. I thought I'd absolute hate not being able to trade, but farming my own gear is actually much more fun. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 15 2018 10:32 WolfintheSheep wrote: Keep in mind that D2 was an extremely casual game as well. The game was really easy even in Hell, which is why there was such a wide range of builds. And the game never got harder, so making a top tier build was entirely personal challenge. Oh, I totally know D2 was built for a recreational audience. I played it back at launch and people mocked both the graphical limitations and simplistic game-play. Like many Blizzard games, it has gained this mythological narrative of being a game for the truly "hardcore" players. But like D3 it was never built with mechanical challenge in mind. | ||
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Kaz1
35 Posts
On November 14 2018 22:01 Longshank wrote: I've been playing D2 for the last few weeks and the immunity thing is just such a bad concept. It doesn't really add depth, all it does is limiting builds. There are very few builds of each class that is able to push through hell solo without skipping every other pack. It sort of worked on battle.net back in the days since you skipped 90% of the content and did Baal-runs up to 85, then was able to farm a few designated areas depending on your damage types. The vast majority of builds that existed back then was never meant for actually playing through the game, very few could without being too boring, slow and tedious. If there will be a D2 remastered, which I hope there will be, my number one wish is for them to get rid of immunities in hell and find other ways to promote varied builds. Immunities were only a problem if you refused to build around them to any degree. And even then, it was a nuisance at worst. Almost every single reasonable build had an effective way to deal with them. The same could be said of IronMaiden before they removed it from Oblivion Knights. And when they did, they absolutely broke the proper casting chain for them btw. This is when I quit the game, as it came along with respecs. Both were horrid additions to the game. I agree that free infinite respecs would be amazing for D2. There is no expression of words that can accurately display my disagreement. I'm not so sure after finding nothing on the internet. Probably remembering wrong. I just remember my WW barb being OP as hell a long time ago, back when I didn't play online yet. Might have been immunities even then though. But I don't think they are good for games. Having to skip monsters or zones because of immunities or needing god tier items that break resistances makes little sense. I never skipped areas. I only used the Conviction runeword on one or two characters. This is a common overstatement of many that played the game, but that never took the time to learn the ways to mitigate them. Damn near the only thing I ever had to walk away from were hypercrazed phys immune minotaurs in glacial caves? type areas with a pure phys based character. | ||
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tomtoms
7 Posts
On November 16 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote: Oh, I totally know D2 was built for a recreational audience. I played it back at launch and people mocked both the graphical limitations and simplistic game-play. Like many Blizzard games, it has gained this mythological narrative of being a game for the truly "hardcore" players. But like D3 it was never built with mechanical challenge in mind. Diablo 3 was sole build around mechanical challenges. You had to kite, CC, and stay alive while keeping some kind of efficiency. They also added a lot mechanics you had to dodge. And more complex bosses. And Berserk if you failed too many times. Affixes that came with resistance against its spell school The challenge just didnt add up with the itemization. Diablo 3 wouldnt have caused such an uproar if it would have been the: "WOW I GOT THAT ITEM". Instead the vast majority of legendaries were bad. It was just about looting that 1000 damage weapon and Attack speed | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17554 Posts
On November 16 2018 03:39 tomtoms wrote: Diablo 3 was sole build around mechanical challenges. You had to kite, CC and stay alive while keeping some kind of efficiency. They also added a lot mechanics you had to dodge. And more complex bosses. Wait, what? If it was built around mechanical challenges I guess it would be prudent to introduce them before T9. That's the difficulty where I actually had to start kiting and dodging a bit, and even that mostly due to monster damage and not some cool mechanics they have. And if by "more complex bosses" you mean those that teleport you randomly and you have no idea what's going on then sure... Seriously, this game is so fast that there's no real way of dodging or kiting anything. You just run through swarms of monsters with epilepsy-inducing visual effects all over the place and spam your skills. | ||
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tomtoms
7 Posts
On November 16 2018 04:21 Manit0u wrote: Wait, what? If it was built around mechanical challenges I guess it would be prudent to introduce them before T9. That's the difficulty where I actually had to start kiting and dodging a bit, and even that mostly due to monster damage and not some cool mechanics they have. And if by "more complex bosses" you mean those that teleport you randomly and you have no idea what's going on then sure... Seriously, this game is so fast that there's no real way of dodging or kiting anything. You just run through swarms of monsters with epilepsy-inducing visual effects all over the place and spam your skills. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXqDk_Qbv8 Why do you confuse build around with (what you believe) it became? He even used "never", which implies that Diablo 3 has never been different. I was curious what daily business in Path of Exile looks like. 11 Hours of Path of Exile. Wow, what an Aesthetic game. And it looks like that on every stream | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I want to second this. Being able to jump back into D3 at almost any time is the biggest reason I still ove the game. The lack of skill trees helps with this since it is impossible to have a character nerfed into being useless. It also allows you to just rebuild a character for the simple sake of variety, which was always something that annoyed me about D2. Does D3 have meaningful variety though? Asking in earnest because I haven't played in a long time. When I played release the variety all felt like window dressing, the way the resource generator and resource consumption skills worked made it feel like most of your build was already pretty rigid. There's a lot that just didn't work together because of their resource needs. Then that problem was exacerbated by balance between skills, defensive skills taking up more slots, and Blizzard designing things in a 'safe' way. Especially with runes a lot of things just end up mathematically superior to other options with similar coverage patterns. In some cases if you maxed a character and got the right gear you opened up some goofy builds but... yeah, that's a little late in the game for that. Though maybe the bigger problem is the way leveling worked in D3. Everything was so slowly doled out and you didn't have any freedom to pick the skills you wanted to focus on. Runes meant a lot of skills were near useless until level 50+. So you just ended up using the 'best at level X' build that you could cobble together. By the time you had enough skills and runes to make your own builds you were very far into the game. D2 by comparison you can usually start getting into a weird build by the time your character is level 10 or 15 and any build comes together right at 30 when you unlock the last tier (at least in the sense of having all the skills you want to use available). Like I enjoyed the hell out of D3 and my Demon Hunter quite a bit... but playing a Demon Hunter felt like the complete experience of being a Demon Hunter without any real excitement about trying out other takes on the character. The D2 skill trees are really problematic and degenerate, but at least in D2 playing a bad character in your own way was really really satisfying for a large amount of the game until they couldn't keep up. Bad builds in Diablo 3 just outright feel bad like you are handicapping yourself for no reason. The options you want to play with end up being mathematically inferior to other options for a lot of your character's time. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
On November 16 2018 04:21 Manit0u wrote: Wait, what? If it was built around mechanical challenges I guess it would be prudent to introduce them before T9. That's the difficulty where I actually had to start kiting and dodging a bit, and even that mostly due to monster damage and not some cool mechanics they have. And if by "more complex bosses" you mean those that teleport you randomly and you have no idea what's going on then sure... Seriously, this game is so fast that there's no real way of dodging or kiting anything. You just run through swarms of monsters with epilepsy-inducing visual effects all over the place and spam your skills. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXqDk_Qbv8 You are ummm.... grossly underselling the difficulty of play displayed in that video. He is in fact dodging and kiting EVERYTHING and i'd bet 100% of the people in this thread. (myself included obv) would die in first minute even if very familiar with the build and having gear/paragon. (Which ofc like all d3 builds is same vanilla standard everyone plays) They really should take a run like that sometime and put it as the challenge rift. Like many things it is not as easy as watching someone very good makes it look to properly kite and drag mobs with you through the rift to maintain required density to clear. Not to mention the absolute precision of play demonstrated when you time a rift at that level. Even at 110+ missplaying one or two CoE cycles on trash costs you the rift. That video is a demonstration of the best of D3 to me. (And yes he makes some mistakes that are extremely obvious in hindsight/to an observer regarding rift strategy but that is not so easy real time either.) the problem is the shit that it doesnt show. The farming 3900 paragon levels, (a quick look at his gear/gems/augments/paragon and you know he has done 1000's of rat runs and 100's of very high meta 4-mans) and flipping hundreds and hundreds of rifts to find the gg rift with the right mobs and 2 floors, and two pylons for boss. Although this is largely personal like most things. I don't personally mind flipping rifts I like the feel of progression rifting. I can't stand farming paragon however  Your average casual player might draw the line at assembling a complete build and clearing gr70. A lot draw the line at full ancients. My personal line is around full augments/extremely good ancients most seasons 'maybe' one re augment if I am actually playing groups and not ssf. Pushing for a 120+ solo rift requires exponentially more grinding.Its funny cuz "just run through swarms of monsters with epilepsy-inducing visual effects all over the place and spam your skills" perfectly describes almost the entirety of the game. (Its the whole reason people play such games lol) I was sure you were just gonna link a vid of rat run or any other meta speed farming. Then you link a vid of the one thing that it does not describe at all. lol | ||
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