|
The problem with the central argument of the piece is that it breaks down under any reasonable analogy. For example: does the fact that A-Rod is so good mean that all older eras of baseball are bad because the competition was not as good? Can Babe Ruth not be a legend because he's not as skilled and doesn't work as hard as the current legends? Does Flash and Jaedong's existence mean that older SC:BW is not entertaining or meaningful?
The point is that humanity in every endeavor is improving. We can only compare what we have at hand. It doesn't cheapen the games we watch to watch when we watch the best who play this game play wonderful and entertaining games. If and when the BW S-Class players come to SC2, hopefully the level of the game will have continued to rise. They will show us beautiful games and they will inspire the entire community to try and beat them. It will be nothing but a good thing for SC2. But just because I'll be able to see Flash vs Jaedong in SC2 doesn't mean I won't look back lovingly on TLO vs Nazgul on Metalopolis before TLO was even in Liquid.
SC2 as an enjoyable art does not depend on having the best talent in its pool that it could ever conceivably have. After all, there's no reason not to believe that out in world there exists someone that if they grew up playing SC:BW in Korea may have surpassed even that. The existence of a player somewhere better than Flash does not cheapen his games or his legacy. Even if we could identify him, this does not mean the games he plays are somehow of less worth.
===
Lastly, it was odd that the piece calls out the training regimen of SC2 teams. I thought people pretty universally called out the Korean style of BW practicing as being unhealthy and detrimental to the players in the longterm. Definitely there are a large chunk of SC2 higher-tier pros that do not practice enough to continue to improve, but are we really opining that SC2 players aren't practicing as much as BW proteams? I thought nobody wanted that?
===
Despite these thoughts, thank you for the article and the work you put into it. I don't have to agree with you to appreciate the work you did and to appreciate your opinion.
|
On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective.
many dont feel offended at all. why are people so butthurt about this? ask ANY pro what they think how players like  Hydra or  Fantasy would do if they switch. be sure they would be feared.
if the article is just stating some facts with a some editors feelings in it then why get so angry.
if you guys could shrug of the "omg must defend sc2/my fav pro!" attitude you could just enjoy a interesting read.
|
Great article, totally agree. When you compare the two scenes there does seem to be a huge gap in commitment from the players. I look forward to the SC2 scene being taken as seriously as BW 
|
On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole.
|
I have to disagree with the OP. While I do agree that if and when great players like the Dong and Flash switch over, they will bring a refreshing aspect to the game and probably do well, I don't think they will dominate like they do in Brood War. If that was the case, players such as Moon or Grubby who have the same work ethic as their Brood War counterparts would be dominating everything like you said "in a week." They possess the same natural talent and work ethic as these other two for a different game and the same insight into build orders and learning the game but strangely enough are far from dominant. I see Grubby's stream up almost every time I come on TL. He's practicing like crazy and despite doing playing solidly, isn't even top tier.
|
On May 12 2011 20:58 Cedstick wrote:
An admin should make one of those handy little mod notes for the top of every page of this thread, stating, "this article isn't simply stating that, 'SC2 pros suck, and BW pros rule!11111,' it's exploring why there is the belief that BW A- and S-class players will dominate when they switch to SC2. Please re-read the article when you think you can respond without an emotional knee-jerk defense of SC2."
Yes there's alot of knee-jerk defense of SC2. But the original post is also very BW centred and alot of the criticism for bias is legitimate in my opinion. Feels like TL is very lenient on BW biased posts where posting something similar from a SC2 perspective wouldn't be a great idea.
|
In my opinion the competition in BW is a farce.
If you compare it to football where millions are playing since childhood trying to become a pro it's nothing. Football has legends since the 1960's and still has 1000 times more players than Broodwar therefore I enjoy it much more. If those millions of kids would play BW instead of football then we would have a real competition...
I know this comparison is very very wrong, calling SC2 a farce is too.
Also with football I mean soccer if you don't know.
|
On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry.
How is it hard to understand?
It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ...
The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. It has no other point than saying "Jaedong and Flash would own SC2 if they wanted, they just don't want to". It heavily implies watching SC2 is silly and pointless if you're into competetive gaming and it leaves you with a feeling off "What whas the point of posting this? To make me feel bad about enjoying watching SC2 and thinking that it's players are good? To remedy my naivetivity?"
It's an article that compares BW to SC2 and says: BW players train harder, make more money, are better players, and they dump their trash @ SC2. How could you seriously think that SC2 players wouldn't question why they were being told this? It's not the fact that there's truth to intrigue's statements, it's the fact that you'd go out of your way to cheapen every SC2 fans' experience despite BW's irrelevance to them.
|
|
|
I'm sorry this just reads like a gush from a diehard BW fan. BW was great, the players were better, but they weren't what they are now within less than a year of launch. Intrigue seems to forget this. It'll get there, but along the way we have a host of people with apparently supremely limited hindsight who only remember BW as the pinnacle of RTS gaming it is today, 9-10 years after launch. Patience, grasshopper(s).
|
I'm glad SC2 teams don't have the same kind of insane sweatshop mentality.
|
I just don't understand why someone would go and compare relative skill levels in two different games at completely different times in the game's lives. The games are not the same and BW has been around for over a decade while SC2 is still completely new. The article leaves me with only one thaught:
What is the fucking point of this article? We all know that the top top BW players would do well in SC2, they would do well in any game they would set their minds to. This article is a step in the wrong direction for SC2.
|
On May 12 2011 20:47 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:33 Archvil3 wrote:
...
So talented RTS players would do well in SC2(yes I am in shock as well) but really, did you have to make a post that is not only made up of goddamn lies to prove a point that anyone with common sence can tell, and did you have to bash the entire SC2 scene while doing so? how about you chill abit ? the point ithat those "amazing players" we see in sc2 were mostly mediocre at best in broodwar. no matter with or without those stats thats a fact. there are far far more talented and skilled people out there would stomp the scene. there is no reason to get so defensive about it. Show nested quote +
Is Then why should it be featured news? Guess what? It's not news, anyone in the know already was aware. We just usually aren't dicks about it.
because its a great article that i and many others enjoyd.you decide to feel offended by it for whatever reason. his point is 100% correct. you dont have to agree with it or like the writers personal stuff thrown in.
I did agree with it, I'm not mad. It's just simply an unprofessional article. There's a lot of people who visit this website that aren't as aware of the Broodwar scene as even someone like me, who follows it very casually, that are probably going to be confused and maybe angry from reading this. As it addresses a game they like and players they respect in a manner that kind of brushes off any of their existing accomplishments.
Watch I'll do the same thing right now.
Boxer is a bad pro broodwar player, had any of the current A/S team players been playing at the same time with the same team regiments that exist now they would've crushed him without effort.
The statements true and it isn't really a big deal, but there are more tasteful ways of doing it than saying Boxer is bad.
|
Great article, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Flash & JD are just way too good. All SC2 fanboys should watch their BW games. Too bad money is the attractor in the business 
|
On May 12 2011 21:02 See.Blue wrote:
I'm sorry this just reads like a gush from a diehard BW fan. BW was great, the players were better, but they weren't what they are now within less than a year of launch. Intrigue seems to forget this. It'll get there, but along the way we have a host of people with apparently supremely limited hindsight who only remember BW as the pinnacle of RTS gaming it is today, 9-10 years after launch. Patience, grasshopper(s).
You'd think differently when SC2 didn't have the name starcraft in it..
|
On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole.
No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game.
Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue).
Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article.
|
This is a different game, I really don't see why their BW records matter at all. And you can also say yeah Flash, JD, etc. could come to SC2 and do really well, but that's more a testament to their skill as opposed to lack of skill within SC2 players.
|
I really dont have much of a say in this, I never even knew of SC before the battle reports for SC2. However, I definitely think BW is MUCH harder than SC2 (I bought BW, stupid slow pc!), definitely mechanically and (after 12 years) probably also strategically. Being top-class in BW has much more meaning, and these people would be able to walk over tons of SC2 pros, possibly the top-class in SC2, also.
|
On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Show nested quote +Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article.
If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing.
Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers.
Active : 8325
Logged in : 2219
If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be
Active : 1200
Logged in :145
It doesn't matter if it's not intentionally flame-baiting SC2 fans, it just is.
|
On May 12 2011 21:00 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. many dont feel offended at all. why are people so butthurt about this? ask ANY pro what they think how players like Hydra or Fantasy would do if they switch. be sure they would be feared. if the article is just stating some facts with a some editors feelings in it then why get so angry. if you guys could shrug of the "omg must defend sc2/my fav pro!" attitude you could just enjoy a interesting read.
You get me wrong here, I am not offended by the fact that BW pros will do very well in SC2, I am quite sure they will, I even stated that in my post on page 55.
My problem with the article is not as much that is incredibly biased as well. My problem with it is the amount of relevant information that is intentionally left out, it is the amount of questionable statistics (again read my post on page 55 where I explain this in details) put it in to paint a picture that is not entirely true. And worst of all it seems to be written with the mindset that the author intend to offend as much as possible. That is my problem. That BW pros are top RTS players that would do well in SC2 is cool, and I would love to see them switch and possibly dominate the scene if that was the case. I just dont see why would you would want to write an article like this if not to offend and bash people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
