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On May 12 2011 20:36 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:28 Cedstick wrote:On May 12 2011 20:15 Synwave wrote:On May 12 2011 19:54 Cedstick wrote:On May 12 2011 19:31 Synwave wrote:On May 12 2011 19:18 Cedstick wrote:On May 12 2011 19:08 Synwave wrote:On May 12 2011 19:02 Mailing wrote:
May I ask about the Title as well?
"The Elephant in the Room"
What room? Of all the SC2 threads I have read over the last 2 years, very few of them have discussed the transition of pro BW players or the "low level" of play in things like GSL
EITR - ""Elephant in the room" is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed."
The elephant here is the "truth" that people are not accepting.
The fact is, SC2 fans KNOW that BW legends are fucking amazing. This is not something people deny or avoid. We gladly await every BW transitional pro. If a A-teamer switches to SC2 and crushes MC, do you think people will be upset? NO. They will be GLAD they have a new person to cheer for, a new person to leech strategy off of to play on ladder. You act like SC2 fans have been following certain players for years and are attached to them, which this is not really the case at all.
If anything, the Elephant is present in Brood War fans hearts, the "truth" that is being ignored is that SC2 is a extremely new and, while at it's core similar, VERY different from brood war. You cannot compare the two yet, ESPECIALLY in terms of skill ceilings.
Well said however the author's "elephant" is that the competitive scene in SC2 is a farce because of low skill former BW players that barely practice to get GSL and other tournament victories. His "facts" and "analysis" all point towards this opinion. So the elephant is not that bisu or flash would do well in SC2, its that all the competitions currently being held are not up to the author's standards and therefore by his opinion are farcical. Since this opinion is so widely held (inferred by the authors perspective) yet not discussed its an elephant in the room. This is of course not my perspective, just clarifying the author's. My perspective is the "elephant" here is actually a dead horse and has been beaten regularly in these self same forums since SC2beta tournaments. Just argued about this article quite thoroughly on IRC, and I have to say that a lot of people are mis-interpreting it, the, "Elephant in the Room." The point is the practice and mindsets going in to it every day -- why BW pros are better than SC2 pros, and why they will dominate when they come over. If current pros don't step it up, they're going to become irrelevant. I can see how that might be a construed perspective. However I tend to read editorials similar to a thesis statement and defense which to my eyes is exactly how this article is written. The statement at the start being "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." which is then defended in whichever manner the author chooses. The elephant here is clearly labeled and it is clearly an inflammatory dead horse that has caused a number of threads to be closed. The wording the OP used to get the reaction he wanted was a little strong, I agree, which ended-up leading to emotional responses rather than raising discussion about the issue at hand, but what we see is just that: a slew of emotional responses automatically adjusted to defend SC2, without realizing what it is the OP is trying to get across. It's funny how one or two bolded statements can blind people so much. It's called editing for emphasis. Ironic that a "Final Edit" would be edited for emphasis in this fashion? I don't think so. If that is the case and you are correct then the failure lies with the author, not with the majority of the reader base...and please dont counter with "but they are just sc2 kids" A number of respected intelligent posters who are well known BW fans have replied regarding the tone of the article. For myself I am a BW fan that became a fan of SC2 also. Yes, if we're talking black or white, then I guess it sways more towards a, "failure," from the author, but I honestly don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, and many others in this thread agree with me -- zatic, just above, for instance. It's a snap decision based on a couple of statements without considering the rest of the content for what it is, and instead reading it with blood covering the eyes, a response already ready based on that one or two lines that provoked such irrationality. I, as much as anyone, want to see SC2 grow. I love SC2 and think it has tons of potential. That doesn't mean I shouldn't pretend everything is perfect. Wait did you just accuse me of black and white perspective and follow it up with gems such as "It's a snap decision based on a couple of statements without considering the rest of the content for what it is" and "That doesn't mean I shouldn't pretend everything is perfect." ?? Yeah credibility gone, enjoy your perspective and whatever perspective you think I have it's obvious your just inventing it at this point.
Well, no, I wasn't saying your entire argument was based on black or white, just regarding the point of the author's failure to communicate properly nullifying the entire article. I'm saying it's more than that, and some people need to read passed the statements that throw them on the defensive rather than catching on those statements.
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For some reason I feel really sad after reading this. I like SC2 :-( And now I feel guilty for enjoying farcical games with bad players that are going to get completely stomped whenever BW pros switch over.
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I'm not going to argue one way or another, the OP is flat out speculation; however, I must question the logic in throwing this on the front page. By putting an article that makes suggestions such as these on a site that has a large community of people interested in SC2 competitive play, it just seems like the only net result that can come out is hindering the growth of that said community and in turn hurting the site in general. Its basically "Hey you know all those games that you can get the streams to here? Yeah, those aren't worth watching, we aren't really sure why you even visit this site. You guys should stop watching the TSL because its just not really valid, these players are like SOO bad."
Making statements like this widely voiced to the public just seems like it could straight up hinder the growth of e-sports. Now, you can say it doesn't reflect the position of TeamLiquid.net all you want, but when you throw it up top of the front page you both advertise and endorse the opinion whether you realize it or not. Why you would do this is just beyond me, and from a purely rational point of view I'm pretty sure it does not make a whole lot of sense for you guys. It really just seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot here. I guess its lucky for you the majority of people seem to just discredit the opinion that "the competition is a farce".
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On May 12 2011 20:02 Random() wrote:
The article is very disrespectful towards the SC2 players. "Don't you see? You all suck! Just look at your BW stats!". Who cares about the BW stats? There is no strong evidence that BW skills directly transfer to SC2 skills.
Obviously if Flash and Jaedong were to switch they would be top players, but they are extremely talented individuals AND hard-workers, they are going to be super good at anything they choose to do in life.
However if someone like, say, Fantasy switched, I am not convinced at all that he would be that good.
This article is just kind of disrespectful in general, though western Broodwar fans have always been elitist shits when talking about other peoples scenes so it's not unexpected.
I really don't understand why this is a necessary post? Yes the best rts players in the world play Broodwar, but guess what starcraft has also existed for 13 years. Sometimes it's nice to enjoy something new for a change.
I really don't see the difference between this article and someone saying during the height of warcraft 3's popularity something along the lines of, "Pffftt why even bother watching if starcraft players swapped to warcraft 3 they'd dominate it, ez pz." To be fair that's pretty much what all Broodwar fans said. However imagine that the front page article on a website from which the majority of site goers were Warcraft 3 fans.
The thing people can't seem to get through their head is Starcraft 2 =/= Starcraft. They're fun to watch for what they are and if you can't enjoy watching Starcraft 2 because Flash and Jaedong aren't playing in it then I honestly think you have some weird mental block that prevents you from functioning rationally.
The fact that Starcraft 2 will increase in quality(with or without some sort of mass migration from Broodwar pros or not) in the future is inevitable, there's enough money at stake that if someone starts to raise the bar of competition others will have to follow suit. The way current team houses function right now is very similar to the way they did at the start of professional Broodwar in Korea. Yes players are bad compared to what they could be, but they were at the start of Broodwar as well, Boxer included.
"Man I really can't enjoy this episode Diners Drive ins and Dives. Guy Fieri is only B+, imagine how well hosted this show could be if only Jaedong could apply his winning charisma, game sense and practice regime."
"Man I really can't enjoy this Football game, Tom Brady doesn't hold a candle to Flash's overall understanding of mind games, dedication and perseverance."
These statements look incredible stupid, and yes they are. However they are really not that different than saying Starcraft 2 is not a good esport because the current set of Broodwar pros aren't playing in it. If you want to say it's not a good esport because the quality of play isn't there that's fine, it's a valid statement. Just don't limit the process of it's development to some divine migration from your foretold Broodwar elite. The game can grow on it's own for now.
It's actually hilarious to me that Teamliquid would let this be a front page article when at it's base level it's an article describing the game that gets it the majority of its site views and sponsor investment as bush league. Well there is a lot of truth to that statement. I would think that if you wanted to make a front page article out of it, it would be pertinent to understand that inherent to your argument is a degrading statement about something that is very popular on this website. It would make sense to address the article in a way that more people could support.
If
Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue).
Is a necessary statement. Then why should it be featured news? Guess what? It's not news, anyone in the know already was aware. We just usually aren't dicks about it.
Make it a blog then. Hey even highlight the blog if you want, but it shouldn't be a front page article, period.
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On the part that if bw progamers switched to sc2 that they'll dominate, I disagree. Right now (probably always will be), sc2 has such a low skill cap compared to bw. If you look at the sc2 tourney champs, they're always fluctuating as if the top 10 players all reached an inevitable plateau. imo, if bw progamers switch, they won't necessarily "dominate," but rather add to the list of the top 10 sc2 players. Specifically speaking, flash will never consistently be number 1 in sc2.
This is somewhat irrelevant, but I remember TLO saying during the beta that what sc2 really needs is an innovative player like boxer. Now that I think about this again, this is impossible. Not because there are no players who are capable of accomplishing such feat, but sc2 just won't allow such display of spectacular skills.
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On May 12 2011 20:42 dormer wrote:
For some reason I feel really sad after reading this. I like SC2 :-( And now I feel guilty for enjoying farcical games with bad players that are going to get completely stomped whenever BW pros switch over.
You shouldn't. I think people that hold these ideas should just fucking stop watching SC2 and stick to BW, because they are doing absolutely nothing for the SC2 community with rants like this.
Step 1: Stop watching SC2
Step 2: Keep watching BW
Pretty simple.
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On May 12 2011 20:33 Archvil3 wrote:
...
So talented RTS players would do well in SC2(yes I am in shock as well) but really, did you have to make a post that is not only made up of goddamn lies to prove a point that anyone with common sence can tell, and did you have to bash the entire SC2 scene while doing so?
how about you chill abit ?
the point ithat those "amazing players" we see in sc2 were mostly mediocre at best in broodwar.
no matter with or without those stats thats a fact.
there are far far more talented and skilled people out there would stomp the scene.
there is no reason to get so defensive about it.
Is Then why should it be featured news? Guess what? It's not news, anyone in the know already was aware. We just usually aren't dicks about it.
because its a great article that i and many others enjoyd.you decide to feel offended by it for whatever reason.
his point is 100% correct. you dont have to agree with it or like the writers personal stuff thrown in.
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On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry.
wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective.
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Absolutely love this article. While i disagree that it takes away a lot of the experience in watching sc2 i tend to think of it in terms of imagine what Flash could do with this stuff.
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Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
No idea why people are playing victims as if he's "attacking" the entire SC2 community with this article.
He's simply explaining where these top SC2 pros came from and how they did in SC:BW and what an exciting future we may be in for in SC2 if the SC:BW pros switch over.
Agree or disagree, atleast try to understand his views and appreciate the efforts of the article.
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It's very frustrating to read parts of this. Hot Bid said that Flash and Jaedong were outliers, which I'll agree they are. Those are two players with RTS skills (not just BW skills) that are far beyond those of anyone else around today. But it seems like a lot of this is saying that SC2 is a joke because if better players started playing, they'd do better. What?
Also, one comment that really grated on my nerves was this:
They enjoy prime salaries playing a game where they won't suddenly be informed that barracks now require depots, or that spellcasters have lost their energy upgrades.
I get extremely pissed off whenever someone points out that there is a problem with SC2 and then says that it is also a problem when Blizzard tries to fix it. You can't use both points as negatives. People seem to forget that this game is less than a year old! Did we have players like Flash and Jaedong in BW after the game had been out for a year?
Too many people still seem so quick to write off SC2 or say that it will have no future. If we give it time to grow though, there's no doubt that we could find another Flash-level of player come around.
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On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective.
How are the statistics questionable?
It's an editorial, it's supposed to have a bias.
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With the way the foreign SC2 scene is right now and the emergence of so many professional and big prize pool tournaments, SC2 could completly die in Korea and still be fine in the rest of the world. BW pro players or not.
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On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective.
You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment.
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On May 12 2011 20:23 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. I follow BW closely, I follow SC2 marginally(Occasional GSL VODs), I can understand why someone is offended by this, you are not offended because you know what BW is , inherent, the mechanics, the scene etc. Even if you don't follow it closely anymore you know it, Alot of SC2 people here don't and it is not suprising that they are offended when they read that the SC2 competition is a farce.
Great post. I joined TL only after SC2, played BW maybe once, but I did educate myself about the scene quite a bit, and do follow/watch some BW players I find really likeable. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the high class BW pros after learning about their training regimen. The focus and refinement and attention to detail that they put into their play is almost downright disgusting.
A lot of the newer SC2 players aren't as familiar with this though, and don't know just how much harder the BW guys work compared to most of the SC2 pros right now. If you've been following the scene since the start, you know that the SC2 practice scene is very lax compared to BW. A select few players might take it upon themselves to push themselves as hard as they can, but the majority of the pros have no set practice schedule. They just do whatever they want/when they want, so the standard of play is actually quite low to what it would be if they practiced as much as the BW guys.
The article may strike some people as just shitting over SC2 saying the real BW pros are just naturally better, but really, they just train so much harder. Maybe the practice conditions for BW teams are too harsh, and not ideal for the players personal lives, but that's a discussion for another thread.
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An admin should make one of those handy little mod notes for the top of every page of this thread, stating, "this article isn't simply stating that, 'SC2 pros suck, and BW pros rule!11111,' it's exploring why there is the belief that BW A- and S-class players will dominate when they switch to SC2. Please re-read the article when you think you can respond without an emotional knee-jerk defense of SC2."
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On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment.
The "truth" is that the MAJORITY of people enjoy SC2 even if it's not as "high level".
You know what that makes them? Fans. Not elitists.
On May 12 2011 20:58 Cedstick wrote:
An admin should make one of those handy little mod notes for the top of every page of this thread, stating, "this article isn't simply stating that, 'SC2 pros suck, and BW pros rule!11111,' it's exploring why there is the belief that BW A- and S-class players will dominate when they switch to SC2. Please re-read the article when you think you can respond without an emotional knee-jerk defense of SC2."
Actually, some of the mods disagree with this as well and see it as blatant rage-mongering.
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Fantastic read.
Kudos for giving this front page exposure.
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On May 12 2011 19:46 iNbluE wrote:
Artosis on his stream: this article is retarded and the guy who wrote it actually knows nothing about e-sports...
Ha, his bashing of the article was actually what reminded me to read it. I'm interested in what issues he has with it. While the article itself is a bit extreme and takes a few too many liberties with the interpretation of numbers, it is for the most part, on point. Top Brood War players have no incentive to switch because they are already successes both competitively and financially. SC2 and the GSL represent the land of opportunity for the less fortunate BW pros. SC2 levels the playing field with a new game and much less demanding mechanics, while GSL offers monetary gain that would otherwise be out of reach. SC2 is the "American dream" of Korean progamers.
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EPT
