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Ummm, how is skill in one game in any way related to skill in another game? Look at Grubby, for example. I mean WC3 is not THAT different from SC2 (me? stir up a hornet's nest? never...  ). Grubby is one of the, if not the, winningest WC3 player ever. And as of today, he's no. 44 on the EU-ladder. Or let's look closer to home: BoxeR. Everyone assumes that he's not as dominant as he used to be because of age or motivation or because SC2 doesn't allow for his skill to shine. May be BW skills or WC3 skills are no guarantee for being good at SC2? We all make that assumption because it seems reasonable to think that: "If X = good at SCBW, then X = good at SC2", and the inverse of that, which seems to be the entire point of the author, would therefore be true as well, ie: "If X is not good at SCBW, then X is not good at SC2".
As far as I can tell, SC2 is a different game from SCBW, but because the races are the same, a lot of units are the same and even some maps are the same, we seem to think that EVERYTHING is pretty much the same. This leads us to believe that the reasoning I highlighted above as being false, seem reasonable. But if I suggested to you that instead of 11 players a side we would now only have 6 and that instead of playing on grass we would now play on ice and that instead of a ball we would now use a puck? Well, we would still call both games hockey, but noone would assume that a good field hockey player would automatically make a good ice hockey player. Or, to make my reasoning more nerd-friendly: just because you were good at WarCraft 2 doesn't mean you will be good at WarCraft 3. I'm sure that most people will agree with me on that, because they're different games. Now, why is it so hard to apply THAT reasoning when we substitute 'WarCraft 2' with 'SCBW' and 'WarCraft 3' with 'SC2'?
I'm not saying that Flash or Jaedong wouldn't dominate after switching to SC2. All I'm saying is that it's more unreasonable to assume so than many of you think.
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On May 12 2011 21:02 OnlineHero wrote:
I just don't understand why someone would go and compare relative skill levels in two different games at completely different times in the game's lives. The games are not the same and BW has been around for over a decade while SC2 is still completely new. The article leaves me with only one thaught:
What is the fucking point of this article? We all know that the top top BW players would do well in SC2, they would do well in any game they would set their minds to. This article is a step in the wrong direction for SC2.
The games may not be exactly the same, but they are similar enough that comparisons can be drawn. The basics of both games are exactly the same. For your second statement, I'll just quote myself to explain it.
On May 12 2011 18:55 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 18:50 Talin wrote:On May 12 2011 18:42 Everhate wrote:
Boxer was at his best when the game was young, and he was developing the strats that would end up leading to where things are now (many, many years down the line). His prime came in the days that strategy was comparatively more important than mechanics. Of course, as time went on, and the strategies became more and more 'known' and 'standard' the mechanics were what separated the ability to use them effectively. Actually, Boxer was at his prime when the game was already 3 years old (2001). That may be young compared to Brood War's lifespan, but on the other hand SC2 is only 1 year old. So it's pretty safe to say that SC2 hasn't even reached its own "Boxer stage" yet. You can't compare development years directly for BW and SC2. SC2 has had the advantage of developing from BW. SC2 builds on all the experience provided by BW. I'd say the first year of SC2 is like the first 4 or 5 years of BW in terms of its development pace, since SC2 didn't have to go through a micro revolution like Boxer provided, followed by the macro revolution that oov started. It's somewhat similar to the advancement of science and technology. There have been more technological developments in the past 100 years than the previous 1000 years combined, but most of that is because as we increase our knowledge, we are able to innovate faster. Anyone attempting to say SC2 is only in its infancy is simply deluding themselves. It's been able to build on the previous generation's knowledge. If BW had never existed, then maybe it could be compared directly like that, but since it did, you can't do that.
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I remember this discussion from counter-strike 1.6 vs counter-strike: source , this can go on for a very long time untill organisers and players decide to go for the newest game ... and developers make sure that the game is in a state that the players will play it ...
Also its up to the developer to allow professional organisations to have (televised) leagues for the game !
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On May 12 2011 21:07 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article. If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing. Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers. Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219 If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be Active : 1200 Logged in :145
I guess we shouldn't allow dissenting opinions then. Only editorials that agree with the majority of people.
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On May 12 2011 21:10 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:07 Mailing wrote:On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article. If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing. Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers. Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219 If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be Active : 1200 Logged in :145 I guess we shouldn't allow dissenting opinions then. Only editorials that agree with the majority of people.
Dissenting opinions against the majority are usually moved to blogs, sorry but it's the truth 
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On May 12 2011 21:07 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article. If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing. Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers. Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219 If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be Active : 1200 Logged in :145
But do you not see the detailed and structured editorial he wrote? Its not a fucking blog post, he wrote a long and good Final Edit. It has content. Shitty threads with no content gets locked, this is not one of those.
Agree or Disagree with it, its well written and brings up interesting points. Don't fucking act like it should be treated like a blog post just because it includes an opinion that you don't like to see.
And why are you bringing up number of SC2 followers, as that has any role in what the TL writers opinions should be like? WTF?
You want this site to be some sort of Propaganda website where we never discuss or critize the esport we watch and play?
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Russian Federation122 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:01 Kulijo wrote:
In my opinion the competition in BW is a farce.
If you compare it to football where millions are playing since childhood trying to become a pro it's nothing. Football has legends since the 1960's and still has 1000 times more players than Broodwar therefore I enjoy it much more. If those millions of kids would play BW instead of football then we would have a real competition...
I know this comparison is very very wrong, calling SC2 a farce is too.
Also with football I mean soccer if you don't know.
Totally agree. Competition in BW is a farce.
We see the same faces every MSL and OSL. Flash JD Bisu Stork and couple of others.
Whilst SC2 is full of surprises, it is still evolving, new strategies are created, we see a lot of new names. In a year or two we will see completely the other SC2 scene, while BW will still be farce with the same names in the finals.
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On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment.
The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth.
I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL.
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And yet again we're infested with the plague that is called "bias towards BW".
Especially this line makes me wonder if the OP really understands the whole concept of "new game"
This is not an article that will make me popular. This is not an article that will start negative but end with eloquent, poignant hope. But we have been skirting around this topic ever since Beta now, so I’ll just f**king say it:
Ignorance at it's best. When I see this line, all I can see is a sour person who dislikes it that the game he bought isn't as refined yet as his old pixellated Broodwar, that the game isn't a shiny pimped up version of BW. Well as everyone already mentioned. SC1 is 12 years old. SC2 is one year old. Go figure. If you're unable to do this please stop posting further editorials.
Secondly you're comparing the results of players with an uneven amount of matches.
Their records (source TLPD) from their Brood War days:
FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008
NesTea - 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 - May 2009
MC - 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 - May 2010
But wait, howmany games did these players play at a high level according to your stats? Not more than 50, as opposed to all the other players you mention which all played 200+ matches roughly. So MC played 10 matches between 2008 and 2010. Does this mean he instantly is bad compared to the rest? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't compare the amount of experience of the players you mention, in a fair and honest manner.
If I play 10 matches and win 7, I will of course have more win % than someone who plays 100 and wins 67. But that does >not< imply that I am the better or the worse player.
Let me ask you one question now though.
Mr. Elitist, what made this website grow? The amazing BW community that was near-extinct, or the influx of players who like to play SC2 and also respect BW?
I am amazed that TL.net sees this as a frontpage article, especially as the arrogance dripping of this piece of bias will eventually be more of a reason to people to stray away from the community.
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On May 12 2011 21:03 ThePhan2m wrote:Great article, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Flash & JD are just way too good. All SC2 fanboys should watch their BW games. Too bad money is the attractor in the business 
So we should all abandon SC2 and watch BW? Got it.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:Was  ThorZaIN vs  oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
My thoughts exactly.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:10 zerglingsfolife wrote:On May 12 2011 21:07 Mailing wrote:On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article. If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing. Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers. Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219 If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be Active : 1200 Logged in :145 I guess we shouldn't allow dissenting opinions then. Only editorials that agree with the majority of people. Dissenting opinions against the majority are usually moved to blogs, sorry but it's the truth
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221475
This is from yesterday. Hardly anyone agreed with him. And this was much less professional.
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On May 12 2011 21:08 TheBorg wrote:Ummm, how is skill in one game in any way related to skill in another game? Look at Grubby, for example. I mean WC3 is not THAT different from SC2 (me? stir up a hornet's nest? never... ). Grubby is one of the, if not the, winningest WC3 player ever. And as of today, he's no. 44 on the EU-ladder. Or let's look closer to home: BoxeR. Everyone assumes that he's not as dominant as he used to be because of age or motivation or because SC2 doesn't allow for his skill to shine. May be BW skills or WC3 skills are no guarantee for being good at SC2? We all make that assumption because it seems reasonable to think that: "If X = good at SCBW, then X = good at SC2", and the inverse of that, which seems to be the entire point of the author, would therefore be true as well, ie: "If X is not good at SCBW, then X is not good at SC2". As far as I can tell, SC2 is a different game from SCBW, but because the races are the same, a lot of units are the same and even some maps are the same, we seem to think that EVERYTHING is pretty much the same. This leads us to believe that the reasoning I highlighted above as being false, seem reasonable. But if I suggested to you that instead of 11 players a side we would now only have 6 and that instead of playing on grass we would now play on ice and that instead of a ball we would now use a puck? Well, we would still call both games hockey, but noone would assume that a good field hockey player would automatically make a good ice hockey player. Or, to make my reasoning more nerd-friendly: just because you were good at WarCraft 2 doesn't mean you will be good at WarCraft 3. I'm sure that most people will agree with me on that, because they're different games. Now, why is it so hard to apply THAT reasoning when we substitute 'WarCraft 2' with 'SCBW' and 'WarCraft 3' with 'SC2'? I'm not saying that Flash or Jaedong wouldn't dominate after switching to SC2. All I'm saying is that it's more unreasonable to assume so than many of you think.
Sorry, but your WC2/WC3 analogy is just bad. WC2 did not have heroes, random item spawns, or creeping. WC3 introduced completely new mechanics that changed the game. SC2 has nothing revolutionary like that when compared to BW.
On May 12 2011 21:11 Tirr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:01 Kulijo wrote:
In my opinion the competition in BW is a farce.
If you compare it to football where millions are playing since childhood trying to become a pro it's nothing. Football has legends since the 1960's and still has 1000 times more players than Broodwar therefore I enjoy it much more. If those millions of kids would play BW instead of football then we would have a real competition...
I know this comparison is very very wrong, calling SC2 a farce is too.
Also with football I mean soccer if you don't know. Totally agree. Competition in BW is a farce. We see the same faces every MSL and OSL. Flash JD Bisu Stork and couple of others. Whilst SC2 is full of surprises, it is still evolving, new strategies are created, we see a lot of new names. In a year or two we will see completely the other SC2 scene, while BW will still be farce with the same names in the finals.
Absolutely wrong. BW strategies are evolving at the same, or even faster pace than SC2 strategies even as we speak, yet players like JD and Flash stay on top of the pack. In fact, they are two of the top innovators of strategies. Having the same people stay on top doesn't mean it's not evolving. It just means that those people are flat out better because they can adapt to the new strategies.
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On May 12 2011 21:03 ThePhan2m wrote:Great article, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Flash & JD are just way too good. All SC2 fanboys should watch their BW games. Too bad money is the attractor in the business
money is the only factor in anything professional. Anything entertainment value is also only based solely on money. to attract the masses anyway.
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I don't feel like OP has an argument. Nada and Boxer were kinda successfull in BW, and they are not doing so well in SC2.
It's a different game.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Tirr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:01 Kulijo wrote:
In my opinion the competition in BW is a farce.
If you compare it to football where millions are playing since childhood trying to become a pro it's nothing. Football has legends since the 1960's and still has 1000 times more players than Broodwar therefore I enjoy it much more. If those millions of kids would play BW instead of football then we would have a real competition...
I know this comparison is very very wrong, calling SC2 a farce is too.
Also with football I mean soccer if you don't know. Totally agree. Competition in BW is a farce. We see the same faces every MSL and OSL. Flash JD Bisu Stork and couple of others. Whilst SC2 is full of surprises, it is still evolving, new strategies are created, we see a lot of new names. In a year or two we will see completely the other SC2 scene, while BW will still be farce with the same names in the finals.
the comparison doesnt work at all. football is a team sport. in EVRY solo sport you will have a way smaller field of top competition simple because the few really good people WILL rise to the top and clearly seperate themselves from the average good ones..
and sc2 is full of surprises cause of its volatile gameplay,patches/trends changing the game and mechanics mattering WAY less.
is goody beating nestea a nice surprise? sure. but if stuff like that keeps happening the we will never see consistency in the competition which is far far worse then seeing the same 20 really good people at the top all the time.
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On May 12 2011 20:46 billy5000 wrote:
This is somewhat irrelevant, but I remember TLO saying during the beta that what sc2 really needs is an innovative player like boxer. Now that I think about this again, this is impossible. Not because there are no players who are capable of accomplishing such feat, but sc2 just won't allow such display of spectacular skills.
Sounds like something someone would probably also have said before Boxer did it. 
I would agree, given the familiarity the two games do share, that a lot of exploration was inherited from BW. But saying that it is impossible that innovations at a Boxer level would emerge sounds like hybris. And a very BW-fixed definition of what skill in SC2 is.
Regarding the OP, I would love to see one of the very best BW players switch to SC2, if only to see how much of the skillset translates - and particularly the part of the skillset that gives them their most profound edges in BW.
How much/what parts of their mental/training approach, strategy/tactic skills and mechanics skills would apply to their SC2 abilities. And what would matter less?
I would have liked for the OP to explore that aspect as a part of his conclusions.
Until we have a good test case for that, I feel that the OP is making too strong conclusions regarding just how much a player like Flash would stomb the SC2 field. (while not doubting that he would establish himself in the top group insanely fast).
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On May 12 2011 21:14 Ghad wrote:
I don't feel like OP has an argument. Nada and Boxer were kinda successfull in BW, and they are not doing so well in SC2.
It's a different game.
People have been over this a million times. Nada and Boxer were washed up when they switched to SC2. Both of them were amazing in their respective eras, but compared to modern BW pros, they were basically retirees.
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United Kingdom1750 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:56 oXoCube wrote:
So Basically you're saying that if the best RTS players in the world started playing SC2 fiull time they would be pretty good?
Go Figure.
He's saying they would be far better than the mediocre hacks who are "awesome" at SC2. Don't deliberately misinterpret, there's no point.
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EPT
