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I'm not sure where the SC2 vs BW is being read into this. intrigue never says it directly, but it seems pretty evident to me that the lesson we learn here is:
Come on, SC2 teams, get your act together and start practicing ffs.
He mentions this a little in bringing up the SlayerS practice schedule, but then let's it drop.
Why did Koreans dominate BW?
Practice.
Why are we seeing some teams/people setting up Korean-style team houses?
Practice.
You want to be good enough at SC2 that BW pros can't just switch over and kick your ass?
Practice.
Granted, there's a sort of disincentive to practice "too much" at the moment due to the fact that we know there are incoming patches and expansions (lots of patches, lots)... but in the meantime, you want to win you have to practice.
Prediction: if we don't see a continuing spread of a "Korean model" outside of Korea, in five years Korean SC2 teams will be on top of SC2 again, for good. You can talk about SC2 being "faster" and "more volatile" but the game's like a max of two years old and is constantly being patched, which favors innovation and adaptability over study. Once the game is defined (no more balance patches every six weeks), the people who practice hard and study the game will take over again.
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On May 12 2011 21:25 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:22 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 21:18 billy5000 wrote:On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here. Well if in 10 years, only one country in the world had a prof soccer league, you wouldnt say the sport is dying? America is the only country that really plays gridiron football, with a few other countries that have small leagues but nothing major. Is it dying? I wouldn't say so.
http://www.cfl.ca/
Canada does too 
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Sorry, but your WC2/WC3 analogy is just bad. WC2 did not have heroes, random item spawns, or creeping. WC3 introduced completely new mechanics that changed the game. SC2 has nothing revolutionary like that when compared to BW.
And even if that analogy is bad (which I don't think it is: did SCBW have Warp-in, Chrono Boost, Creep speed bonus, Larva Inject, MULEs, switchable add-ons, etc. ?) it doesn't make my point any less valid.
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Moreover, Bomber, MMA, Ace stats are below 5 games, how is that considered good statistics and why would it get mentioned
because having that low number of games means they were too bad to play more .
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I LOVE the "farce" that is the Sc2 Pro Scene and every single farcical sc2 tournament as well as the shitty, scrub players that participate in it. I don't care if they won 39% of their BW games, or 22.25% of their Super Mario brothers 2 games, so honestly a bunch of BW elitists spewing out how godly their players are makes no impact on me (or other sc2 fans) whatsoever.
Sc2, fuck yeah.
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Seriously, who cares ?! Its tow different games and as long as the games are entertaining it doenst matter to me who wins or who could#
ve won if he would have switched to SC2 and stomped all low-class Ex-BW-Players. Sensless discussion imo...
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On May 12 2011 21:27 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:25 Musou wrote:On May 12 2011 21:22 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 21:18 billy5000 wrote:On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here. Well if in 10 years, only one country in the world had a prof soccer league, you wouldnt say the sport is dying? America is the only country that really plays gridiron football, with a few other countries that have small leagues but nothing major. Is it dying? I wouldn't say so. http://www.cfl.ca/Canada does too
Good point. But I somehow doubt the CFL is anywhere near as big as the NFL. Also, Canada only cares about hockey. Everyone knows this!
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I've followed brood war for the past 10 years, and still I don't see any real point in having this discussion. Fact of the matter is, neither Flash nor Jaedong are contending to be the best sc2 player. MC/MVP/Nestea are the best starcraft 2 pro's. At some point S-class bw players might switch, and at some point they might be ripping up the GSL, but that's no certainty either despite most bw fans being convinced that such is the case.
Until then, let's not make silly assumptions on their future performance in sc2 in either direction.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:21 biskit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote:
"Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic."
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. Well if someone makes a thread saying "I can't enjoy BW fully because it's butt ugly but I do feel watching J v F is awesome" do you think people won't flame him?
If he phrased it just like this then yeah he would probably get flamed. That aside I am sure that is the view point of many people who "switched" from BW to SC2 so no I don't see why people should get overly angry over this.
But anyway I was wondering why people get angry over the OP not some other, hypothetical opinion.
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On May 12 2011 21:21 JWD wrote:
intrigue, this was an intriguing read. It's sparking some nice discussion. Awesome job.
You have a strong case that most of the talent in Korea remains playing BW. I think some posters are jumping from that point to concluding that SC2 is somehow just as inferior to BW to watch and follow as SC2 players are inferior to BW players. But that's a big jump — I can enjoy SC2 at its current level just like I enjoyed watching foreigner tourneys for BW.
Hmm no ok you're right.
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9071 Posts
I'm pretty sure the discussion about this can go for another 60 pages. Perhaps its time to talk about it, but the right place is the pub.
Tomorrow is Friday. Lets get down on Friday. Just go out with some buddies and discuss that again on beer along with similar important subjects such as charlize theron vs megan fox, american vs european cars and Inception
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holy fuck?
Why can`t people just see everything in a relative perspective?
Why all these assumptions and speculations?
Starcraft 2 is a game...which is being played..competetivly. Some people win, some loose. Sit back and enjoy the game maybe? lol
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On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
This.
I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics.
And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC?
You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them.
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how about we all ignore this
This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
one sentence and all be happy?
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On May 12 2011 21:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +Moreover, Bomber, MMA, Ace stats are below 5 games, how is that considered good statistics and why would it get mentioned because having that low number of games means they were too bad to play more .
Address my whole post, not just this little fact please.
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On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this.
The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW.
Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce?
On May 12 2011 21:29 zatic wrote:But anyway I was wondering why people get angry over the OP not some other, hypothetical opinion.
This OP was put as news on the front page.
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On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them.
Do you have selective vision or do you just ignore the explanations that have been given a million times? Boxer, Nada, and July were all basically retirees in BW before switching over to SC2. Stop using them as examples. MVP was basically the best of the players that switched over from BW, and he was bad by BW standards, yet in SC2 is pretty much considered one of the top, if not the top of the terrans.
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On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them.
Why don't you read the editorial? It has a section separately for why the legends aren't great.
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EPT
