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On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL.
There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here.
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On May 12 2011 21:13 Xsoild wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:03 ThePhan2m wrote:Great article, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Flash & JD are just way too good. All SC2 fanboys should watch their BW games. Too bad money is the attractor in the business  money is the only factor in anything professional. Anything entertainment value is also only based solely on money. to attract the masses anyway.
Money is the only reason Flash, Jaedong etc. is STILL playing BW when the rest of the world has moved on. Why not become world wide superstars and make the same amount by switching to SC2? Because their contracts in BW secures them more MONEY.
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On May 12 2011 21:14 Ghad wrote:
I don't feel like OP has an argument. Nada and Boxer were kinda successfull in BW, and they are not doing so well in SC2.
It's a different game.
They were succesfull a long time ago, they were not top BW players when SC2 was released.You seem to have missed the point.
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But wait, howmany games did these players play at a high level according to your stats? Not more than 50, as opposed to all the other players you mention which all played 200+ matches roughly. So MC played 10 matches between 2008 and 2010. Does this mean he instantly is bad compared to the rest? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't compare the amount of experience of the players you mention, in a fair and honest manner.
As a matter of fact, yes, he was terrible. He played so little because the coach of his team thought he was a bad player compared to the regular roster of the team he ahrdlky ever played any televised match. It means he was a good B-teamer but lacked the talent to be a really good player. During those 3 years, he played thousands of games gainst the A-teamers of his team, and lose most of them.
But well, at least he made it to televised games. Idra was also a B-teamer and never achieved that. And talking about Idra, people seems to idolize him but he constantly bash SC2 and the other players. He has said plenty of times that players are bad and that the game is mediocre.
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I'm glad someone finally got around saying that BW is a tougher game to make it at the top even though it's blatantly obvious to anyone that has played both games and followed the pro scene in the last 3-4 years.
In the end the salaries and trophies are what's important to pro-gamers, and people new to the RTS pro scene just have no idea how much top BW players make. Why would they switch when they won't make as much and they are actually doing well? Also BW is still more popular than SC2 in Korea.
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I really don't like to use memes, but obvious statement is obvious. Current top sc2 players were all mediocre BW players.
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Amazing read. I agree with everything in OP.
I still watch most of the BW games on vods and streams when its not 5am and tried to watch SC2 even tho i havent played SC2 so far but i couldnt get into it. Stopped after 2 seasons of GSL and now watch every now and then but I felt the same thing as OP. The competition is terrible so far. I feel like many of the top pros are playing bad and feel like i can play better than half of them even if i havent played a game so far.
SC2 fanboys should not be offended by this. This is the reality so far. BW pros are better in raw talent and practice harder and are paid for their effort. They got yearly salaries and the OSL/MSL prize pool is the same as GSL now (not sure?) The very top S class players(and even the lower A teamers ) got no reason to switch right now.
Still we will see another wave of fresh blood in SC2 near the end of the summer when progamers get their contracts changed. Some will not be satisfied and switch to SC2 or retire. SC2 is still an good game and with the potential to surpass BW. We just need to wait and see what the new expansions will bring.
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*sigh* another BW rant .
why a rant you ask ?
not becaues the author did not try to base his claim , but because the author was using the facts
in a very tendentious way.
1) for an example when he talked about X Bw players he didn't mention Nada / july / Boxer / MVP till three pages down (and allow me to ignore the sacricity excuse) .
2) when the writer say that mvp had only 56% win rate he forgot to mention thats indeed a very high precentage for a progamer .
3) the writter seem to forget about the new generation of players we see (bomber / alicia / losira)
4) the practice regim of ogs / slayers / im was forgot to be mention , and only TSL which is kinda notourius was.
the question the writer ask have a really easy answer.
top players from BW do not pass to sc2 , because they have alot of risk and little reward.
they need to go into a diffrent game with hard competition , and walk away from garenteed money , something they have familier background and alot of head start from the other players.
can good bw player make a diffrence ? yes definitly , but also a new guy that boxer found.
a new game will have a new legends , and really they should not be compared to bw legends ,
its a diffrent game.
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now i will not necro the threads about how macro games cannot be played on SC2 ,
or how you cannot micro in sc2.
sounds abit stupid this days ?
i am willing to bet 100$ this post will seem exactly the same kind of stupid a year from now.
its a new game , enjoy the bloom and give it some freaking time
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i will end to a rent for the writer / TL editors,
will you spotlite an article like this ;
Title: BW will be dead in 5 years.
Body: since the advancement of computers and operation system and the lack of support of BW
its unlikely the game could be run in 5 years .
i can compare BW to patiphone records and sc2 to DVD media.
i can give satistics about games lifespan and code decays .
i can show viewer rating decline graphs.
it will be acurate artice but biased ,
and most importantly it will be a really shitty article with no constructive information which will not help sc / sc2 in any way shape of form except for me venting about BW .
i hope you got my (subtle?) hint (and please dont comment about that "article" , its proving a point by an example and not something i will stand behind it)
yours , yaron.
p,s about this thread not becoming bw vs sc2 , the entire artice is one big flamebait for sc2 vs bw.
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On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote:
"Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic."
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry.
Well if someone makes a thread saying "I can't enjoy BW fully because it's butt ugly but I do feel watching J v F is awesome" do you think people won't flame him?
I am disappointed in the writer's choice of article. This kind of opinion doesn't help anyone, and I don't feel it deserves to be featured in the front page. It also tears the communities apart.
Moreover, Bomber, MMA, Ace stats are below 5 games, how is that considered good statistics and why would it get mentioned. I have watched BW game when Leta "donated" 50 of his marines in transports to Flash by sending them to multiple turrets, I thought the highest of BW players are unable to do such amateur play? And I'm sure there are many occurences where gosu BW players are playing awful but that would be cherrypicking fact, which is what the writer does.
I'm not angry, I'm merely disappointed by this particular highly biased, cherrypicking stat article.
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United States12607 Posts
intrigue, this was an intriguing read. It's sparking some nice discussion. Awesome job.
You have a strong case that most of the talent in Korea remains playing BW. I think some posters are jumping from that point to concluding that SC2 must be (objectively) just as inferior to BW to watch and follow as SC2 players are inferior to BW players. But that's a big jump — I can enjoy SC2 at its current level just like I enjoyed watching foreigner tourneys for BW.
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Russian Federation122 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:18 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:13 Xsoild wrote:On May 12 2011 21:03 ThePhan2m wrote:Great article, I couldn't agree more with the OP. Flash & JD are just way too good. All SC2 fanboys should watch their BW games. Too bad money is the attractor in the business money is the only factor in anything professional. Anything entertainment value is also only based solely on money. to attract the masses anyway. Money is the only reason Flash, Jaedong etc. is STILL playing BW when the rest of the world has moved on. Why not become world wide superstars and make the same amount by switching to SC2? Because their contracts in BW secures them more MONEY.
Not only. The whole Kespa situation also makes many players stay. Because if they leave - they got their progamer licence destroyed (as Nada had). And if they occasionally do bad - they will not be able to come back.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Savreth wrote:Secondly you're comparing the results of players with an uneven amount of matches. Show nested quote +Their records (source TLPD) from their Brood War days:
FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008
NesTea - 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 - May 2009
MC - 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 - May 2010
But wait, howmany games did these players play at a high level according to your stats? Not more than 50, as opposed to all the other players you mention which all played 200+ matches roughly. So MC played 10 matches between 2008 and 2010. Does this mean he instantly is bad compared to the rest? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't compare the amount of experience of the players you mention, in a fair and honest manner. If I play 10 matches and win 7, I will of course have more win % than someone who plays 100 and wins 67. But that does >not< imply that I am the better or the worse player.
They didn't play that many matches because they sucked. They weren't good enough to warrant further games and didn't get into individual tournaments regularly. It's okay to compare them, they aren't close. If you knew how BW worked, you wouldn't even bring that point up.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL.
Well, people were saying the same thing when wc3 came out. And even if bw dies, this wont change the fact that at this current moment SC2 players are amateurs in every single aspect compared to bw pros.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:07 Mailing wrote:On May 12 2011 21:05 Senx wrote:On May 12 2011 21:00 haylmfao wrote:On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote:
Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole. No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game. Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue). Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article. If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing. Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers. Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219 If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be Active : 1200 Logged in :145 But do you not see the detailed and structured editorial he wrote? Its not a fucking blog post, he wrote a long and good Final Edit. It has content. Shitty threads with no content gets locked, this is not one of those. Agree or Disagree with it, its well written and brings up interesting points. Don't fucking act like it should be treated like a blog post just because it includes an opinion that you don't like to see. And why are you bringing up number of SC2 followers, as that has any role in what the TL writers opinions should be like? WTF? You want this site to be some sort of Propaganda website where we never discuss or critize the esport we watch and play?
It should certainly inform the way these articles are toned. While this one is certainly fine academically. It is an article written from the perspective of a Starcraft Brood War fan, would finds he can't enjoy Starcraft 2 for what it is, and thus finds it necessary to explain his opinion to the community at large in a demeaning manner. An audience primarily made up of Starcraft 2 players and enthusiasts.
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On May 12 2011 21:18 billy5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here.
Well if in 10 years, only one country in the world had a prof soccer league, you wouldnt say the sport is dying?
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United Kingdom1699 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:11 Tirr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:01 Kulijo wrote:
In my opinion the competition in BW is a farce.
If you compare it to football where millions are playing since childhood trying to become a pro it's nothing. Football has legends since the 1960's and still has 1000 times more players than Broodwar therefore I enjoy it much more. If those millions of kids would play BW instead of football then we would have a real competition...
I know this comparison is very very wrong, calling SC2 a farce is too.
Also with football I mean soccer if you don't know. Totally agree. Competition in BW is a farce. We see the same faces every MSL and OSL. Flash JD Bisu Stork and couple of others. Whilst SC2 is full of surprises, it is still evolving, new strategies are created, we see a lot of new names. In a year or two we will see completely the other SC2 scene, while BW will still be farce with the same names in the finals.
Are you honestly saying that having dominant players is worse than having this carousel of players, none of whom can hold a top position for long? Lol how is a player without consistency even fully worthy of admiration?
I also question how much BW you actually watch. There are plenty of young talents- but it does take time for them to filter to the top, as it's such a difficult game. And to reach anything like the top you need..... CONSISTENCY!
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Zurich15355 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison.
Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this.
And to all the people saying this should go to Blogs: Teamliquid has had front page editorial pieces that were "just" opinions for years. There is an entire section for them in the right side bar called "Final Edits".
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On May 12 2011 21:22 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:18 billy5000 wrote:On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here. Well if in 10 years, only one country in the world had a prof soccer league, you wouldnt say the sport is dying?
America is the only country that really plays gridiron football, with a few other countries that have small leagues but nothing major. Is it dying? I wouldn't say so.
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On May 12 2011 21:11 Savreth wrote:And yet again we're infested with the plague that is called "bias towards BW". Especially this line makes me wonder if the OP really understands the whole concept of "new game" Show nested quote +This is not an article that will make me popular. This is not an article that will start negative but end with eloquent, poignant hope. But we have been skirting around this topic ever since Beta now, so I’ll just f**king say it: Ignorance at it's best. When I see this line, all I can see is a sour person who dislikes it that the game he bought isn't as refined yet as his old pixellated Broodwar, that the game isn't a shiny pimped up version of BW. Well as everyone already mentioned. SC1 is 12 years old. SC2 is one year old. Go figure. If you're unable to do this please stop posting further editorials. Secondly you're comparing the results of players with an uneven amount of matches. Show nested quote +Their records (source TLPD) from their Brood War days:
FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008
NesTea - 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 - May 2009
MC - 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 - May 2010
But wait, howmany games did these players play at a high level according to your stats? Not more than 50, as opposed to all the other players you mention which all played 200+ matches roughly. So MC played 10 matches between 2008 and 2010. Does this mean he instantly is bad compared to the rest? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't compare the amount of experience of the players you mention, in a fair and honest manner. If I play 10 matches and win 7, I will of course have more win % than someone who plays 100 and wins 67. But that does >not< imply that I am the better or the worse player. Let me ask you one question now though. Mr. Elitist, what made this website grow? The amazing BW community that was near-extinct, or the influx of players who like to play SC2 and also respect BW? I am amazed that TL.net sees this as a frontpage article, especially as the arrogance dripping of this piece of bias will eventually be more of a reason to people to stray away from the community.
Ignoring the bunch of ad hominems in there...
Those players played less professional matches because their teams thought they sucked too hard to field them regularly in proleague, and they sucked too hard to get playtime in the individual leagues. So the mere fact that they played less is more proof of their mediocrity.
And TL has a long history, its members friendly and mature.
Whether SC2 is popular, or caused TLnet to have greater viewership does not add to the argument.
The fact that you seem to suggest that TL should only post articles that glorify SC2, because that's what the majority want to see speaks volumes about your character. They have a word for that kind of behaviour, it's called pandering.
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On May 12 2011 21:18 billy5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. There was hardly anyone playing bw prior to sc2 beta. I think it's safe to assume that south korea made up 90% of the fame and fortune, while the majority of foreigners and newcomers moved on to sc2. If I recall correctly, most south koreans haven't moved on to sc2. I don't think the extremity of the word "dying" is appropriate here.
BW is dead in foreign scenes. Sadly you seem to be mentally blocked from thinking outside a country that's only 40 million inhabitants. Sadly you can not see that the world is more than Korea and that outside that country the SC1 scene is terribad. As many mentioned, the issue is money. Who knows what happens if KeSPA gets their paws on SC2. Maybe Korea will switch, maybe not. It all depends on the money. And for Korean sponsors, it's more rewarding to switch to SC2 due to the much larger attention of the world.
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EPT
