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On May 12 2011 21:25 raviy wrote:
Ignoring the bunch of ad hominems in there...
Those players played less professional matches because their teams thought they sucked too hard to field them regularly in proleague, and they sucked too hard to get playtime in the individual leagues. So the mere fact that they played less is more proof of their mediocrity.
And TL has a long history, its members friendly and mature.
Whether SC2 is popular, or caused TLnet to have greater viewership does not add to the argument.
The fact that you seem to suggest that TL should only post articles that glorify SC2, because that's what the majority want to see speaks volumes about your character. They have a word for that kind of behaviour, it's called pandering.
Before things get out of context.
I read this article from a neutral point of view regarding BW. I have not played it and it may be a long while till I do. However I do feel that the tone of the whole editorial is so offensive and rude towards people that don't play/revere SCBW that I >will< say something about it.
From a neutral point of view, I feel that someone can never be judged on purely the % of games.
Imagine I'd be really good and I would play well. Would I possibly be better than Jaedong if I have 10 professional games under my belt, and he has over 400 matches under his. Mind you, I am talking about professional, televised matches.
Of course I wouldn't be better than him by default because my winrate is maybe 20% higher. Especially not since I do not have the experience that my opponent has. This is why I am against judging winrates without looking at the percentage AND amount of total games. Other point here :
If I were to practice 12 hours per day and get the chance of getting towards tournaments, I eventually would hit a point where my experience, practice and individual skill all come together to a peak moment and in which I would be a "good" player, right? From outside perspective, the major difference for players like Fruitdealer, NesTea etc is the difference I just kind of described. They barely get the chance to play those topgames and to practice. So inevitably it also means they can draw LESS on their experience due to having less chances. Especially if you say that your own coach, someone who should drive you to the maximum, is saying publicly that he thinks that player X is shit.
Coming back to my TL size comment :
I have no doubts that the community that was in BW-times was really nice, mature and stuff.
However we've evolved on this site with the introduction of a new game, and a lot of people are coming here. The attitude of a lot of the old BW-fans on this website, is also often a reason people don't like it here anymore. This article only makes that feeling even stronger.
I've never played BW. But when I read a heap of rude bias and offensive style of writing such as this, I feel like this website is degrading slowly into the depths of elitism and flamefests.
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On May 12 2011 21:35 DminusTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:how about we all ignore this
This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
one sentence and all be happy? There are a few more that are similarly toned, and honestly I would be perfectly fine with the article as a whole if they were removed. It just goes to show you should probably have an impartial eye do the editing. Though I guess that would've taken out the inflammatory context of the article that the author intended all along though.
but cant people jsut read something without getting overdefensive over some personal subtext?
i like watching the german basketball league. if there was a article about how it would be if NBA teams/players suddenly switched over i would love to read that even tho it sure as hell would dismiss almost the entire german scene as inferior.
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On May 12 2011 21:36 Sumsi wrote:Anyone mentioned that the amount of fangirls is much higher when watching BW progames?  When watching the GSL I feel just seeing a Starcraft game without an audience.
There's this thing called the internet. There are a lot of people watching the GSL. Just because they aren't watching it live and in person doesn't mean it doesn't have a large audience. Where do you think the GSL gets all it's money from, the handful of people who happen to be in SK to watch it or the hundreds of thousands if not millions who watch it online.
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On May 12 2011 21:36 fabiano wrote:
Great read
Notice the post count of those defending SC2. It doesn't say much indeed, but at least show that there is a chance they never followed BW as intrigue did, yet they are arguing over it as if they knew shit about BW....
Yeah.
This is the perfect example of who this article was written for.
Bask in the stereotypical nature of their broodwar elitism for they are your fore-bearers new members or team liquid and truly they are most deserved of your respect beyond all others. Indeed your game of choice is but a speck of dirt in comparison to the great impenetrable bastion of their logic.
It may not be the point of the article, but it's easy to see how it would come off that way.
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On May 12 2011 21:34 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them. Why don't you read the editorial? It has a section separately for why the legends aren't great.
I did. It was just a bunch of rationalization and made up guesses as to why they suck. The only factual evidence was that Nada's win rate had dropped a whole 4% towards the end. Yeah, total slump... NOT.
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Canada13421 Posts
very well written article. And I look forward to August now lol :D
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On May 12 2011 21:36 theMiNUS wrote:
i have no opinion on the skills of BW pros vs SC2 pros... but it is my humble opinion that BW is just a terrible spectator eSport, a horrible thing to watch... i don't think BW has the same capacity to attract "new fans" as does SC2, just because of the terrible graphics... If growing eSports is our goal, then the answer lies in SC2.
LOOL
Oh god please tell me this is sarcasm...
e-sports has grown due to Broodwar, ffs. This really shows how little the people trying to argue here know about the scene.
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Well apparently the sc1 progamers do not think they can dominate sc2 easily.
Safe for the absolute top in bw, there is more money to be made dominating sc2 then just playing sc1.
However almost no pro sc1 players make the switch because they do not have the absolute faith they will dominate in sc2, therefore making it a risky choice to go from a steady guaranteed income to something that may never give any return.
Ofcourse there' s a skillgap between a old, sturdy, money-loaded game and a relatively new game. However that skillgap will not magically change because bw pro's jump over, it will (and is) getting smaller every day because there is more and more money on the line so there will be more people willing and in a position to sacrifice everything else to become good at starcraft 2.
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This is sorta a pointless thread. Imagine if baseball was just invented and someone wrote an article in the newspaper "in a couple years the talant will be even greater in baseball because other atheletes will want to play because it's offering more money." How much of a no brainer is that? Isn't that how everything in the world works?
Why must people always compain!!!!! I'm so grateful that esports and sc2 even exists. Somehow someone made a thread saying that in years to come the talant will be greater, thus taking away what anyone acomplishes now.
Why is this on the front page? Most people come here for sc2 and the first article is knocking sc2. Why won't people support what they love instead everyone just finds a way to be negative and complain like everything else in the world.
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On May 12 2011 21:43 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 theMiNUS wrote:
i have no opinion on the skills of BW pros vs SC2 pros... but it is my humble opinion that BW is just a terrible spectator eSport, a horrible thing to watch... i don't think BW has the same capacity to attract "new fans" as does SC2, just because of the terrible graphics... If growing eSports is our goal, then the answer lies in SC2. LOOL Oh god please tell me this is sarcasm... e-sports has grown due to Broodwar, ffs. This really shows how little the people trying to argue here know about the scene.
Do you think perhaps you could not bring up post counts as defining people and respond instead to what they say be it good bad or hilarious inept?
Generalizing everyone arguing here as knowing nothing about the BW scene doesn't help much either.
The only person I see adding nothing to this discussion (other then their post count lol) is you currently.
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On May 12 2011 21:43 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 theMiNUS wrote:
i have no opinion on the skills of BW pros vs SC2 pros... but it is my humble opinion that BW is just a terrible spectator eSport, a horrible thing to watch... i don't think BW has the same capacity to attract "new fans" as does SC2, just because of the terrible graphics... If growing eSports is our goal, then the answer lies in SC2. LOOL Oh god please tell me this is sarcasm... e-sports has grown due to Broodwar, ffs. This really shows how little the people trying to argue here know about the scene.
eSports was really fucking small outside Korea. And only there it was truely popular.
Don't bring in these arguments that you do while they are invalid.
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One thing I got from this article:
BW got to where it is today PRECISELY because of the hard work of the players and the mapmakers. Players in BW are constantly thinking about new strategies and paradigms to be ahead of the curve. Examples include Savior's 3-hatch muta, Bisu's FE into Sair/DT, Flash's Double Armory/anticarrier build, and JD's 3-hatch spire into 5-hatch hydra. Even now, the game's evolving and new paradigms are created. TvT nowadays don't involve dropships that much, but rather wraiths and valkyries to gain air superiority. ZvT can actually involve mass queens. A little further back, we had the late-mech switch and hive-tech ZvZ. ALL these builds and schools of thought were the result of hours and hours of practice and brainstorming by teams and players to gain that small edge.
Mapmakers contributed significantly to the evolution of the game as well. Mani's article Celestial Terrain and Empyrean's Decade of Promaps show how the maps evolved over time and what mapmakers tried to do to bring exciting yet balanced gameplay. Along came some spectacular failures, such as Mercury, Demon's Forest, and Battle Royal, but the point is that mapmakers are also thinking and working hard to create exciting maps for players to play on.
From what the article has said, that's not happening in SC2. According to the article, most players play for fun, and just stick with whatever build or strategy yields decent results. Mapmakers are not as bold in their thinking, opting to "just make maps bigger." I think people are not willing to do that BECAUSE there's more patches and 2 expansions on the way. What's the point of spending hours and hours perfecting a strategy or a style of play when an expansion is going to render it moot? Just use the same crap.
So all in all, the players and mapmakers have the responsibility to innovate and evolve the game of SC2, and Blizzard has the responsibility to foster and encourage people to do so.
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On May 12 2011 21:42 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:34 zerglingsfolife wrote:On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them. Why don't you read the editorial? It has a section separately for why the legends aren't great. I did. It was just a bunch of rationalization and made up guesses as to why they suck. The only factual evidence was that Nada's win rate had dropped a whole 4% towards the end. Yeah, total slump... NOT.
Maybe if you keep reading you'll understand that nada and boxer were not top BW players in 2010. They used to be good at BW, many years ago. In 2010, Nada was a semi A teamer who was average. Boxer was a ceremonial player.
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On May 12 2011 21:39 eoLithic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 12 2011 21:31 eoLithic wrote:
holy fuck?
Why can`t people just see everything in a relative perspective?
Why all these assumptions and speculations?
Starcraft 2 is a game...which is being played..competetivly. Some people win, some loose. Sit back and enjoy the game maybe? lol if you think starcraft is just a game,you're not going to last long here. Is Starcraft not a video game? Fotball is stated by some, to me more than s sport, it`s still a game, a sport. Starcraft is the a huge e-sport, still a game. What a wierd comment btw xD "you won`t last long here, lol" hillarious stuff right there.
Maybe he just meant you won't last long because of how annoying you might find it to be surrounded by so many people who fanatically believe otherwise? 
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On May 12 2011 21:22 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:11 Casablancas wrote:On May 12 2011 20:55 mdb wrote:On May 12 2011 20:52 Archvil3 wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. wow, really? You dont think the "bw pros rules, sc2 pros sucks(not inferior, not mediocre, not not as good as bw pros but downright sucks) and I'm gonna explain it in a way that I can offend as many as possible with it"-approach to writing the article is gonna tick off people? I mean with all due respect not only is the article made up of questionable statistics it is about the most biased thing to ever hit the front page of TL. The thing is with an article of that size you could easily cover the case from multiple angles to give perspective to the case, yet it is written with the mindset to offend as much as possible, rather then giving actual perspective. You feel offended, because the truth hurts. People may get angry, when someone says that sc2 pros suck compared to bw pros, but this is the reality at the moment. The truth? Yes the current BW pros would kick MC etc. asses in BW. But as long as you have no proof that they can do that in SC2, you can't call it the truth. I think the truth hurts the BW fans, your game is dying and is being replaced by a more popular and spectator friendly game friendly all over the world, except in a closed country in a closed community in Asia (by closed I mean mainly the language barrier etc.). So arguments like "our players can beat your players" is thrown out, and for some very strange reason the front page of TL. Well, people were saying the same thing when wc3 came out. And even if bw dies, this wont change the fact that at this current moment SC2 players are amateurs in every single aspect compared to bw pros.
I dont think you know what amateur mean. Besides how many new people world wide picks up BW and challenge flash and so on? None. Very competitive.
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Canada13421 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:43 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 theMiNUS wrote:
i have no opinion on the skills of BW pros vs SC2 pros... but it is my humble opinion that BW is just a terrible spectator eSport, a horrible thing to watch... i don't think BW has the same capacity to attract "new fans" as does SC2, just because of the terrible graphics... If growing eSports is our goal, then the answer lies in SC2. LOOL Oh god please tell me this is sarcasm... e-sports has grown due to Broodwar, ffs. This really shows how little the people trying to argue here know about the scene.
To be fair he is referring to new fans and if he is a foreigner then I would need to agree that BW alone cannot get english speaking foreigners interested in current BW esports due to the graphics for one and the fact its all in korean second and e-sports in general is a new thing in the east which does not have widespread support and is looked down upon by many.
So for the foreign scene to get people who know nothing about esports into esports SC@ is the answer but BW had a major impact and may still (though not as easily as sc2) get people into e-sports.
Though I disagree that BW is a bad spectator esport I agree that SC2 is where most people new to the SC scene in general are going to come in from the foreigner side of the world. I started with sc2 and while not hardcore into bw I have seen some of the more defining moments in its history in vods and some really cool games on youtube. Discovery of moving shot, Boxer's glory moments etc etc.
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I don't understand what this article is trying to say exactly. It's true that the level of competition is lower in the start of starcraft 2 than in recent years of brood war so far. This is indeed because few good players switched over, so players who aren't as good gamers as brood war pros can win championships. But this doesn't say anything about starcraft 2 as a game compared to brood war, just the pool of current players. And if Flash can come in to SC2 and dominate everybody, then all that shows is that SC2 has a high skill ceiling too just like broodwar. So ... that would show SC2 is a good competitive game? What exactly was the point made? I'm confused.
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On May 12 2011 21:41 Savreth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:25 raviy wrote:
Ignoring the bunch of ad hominems in there...
Those players played less professional matches because their teams thought they sucked too hard to field them regularly in proleague, and they sucked too hard to get playtime in the individual leagues. So the mere fact that they played less is more proof of their mediocrity.
And TL has a long history, its members friendly and mature.
Whether SC2 is popular, or caused TLnet to have greater viewership does not add to the argument.
The fact that you seem to suggest that TL should only post articles that glorify SC2, because that's what the majority want to see speaks volumes about your character. They have a word for that kind of behaviour, it's called pandering.
Before things get out of context. I read this article from a neutral point of view regarding BW. I have not played it and it may be a long while till I do. However I do feel that the tone of the whole editorial is so offensive and rude towards people that don't play/revere SCBW that I >will< say something about it. From a neutral point of view, I feel that someone can never be judged on purely the % of games. Imagine I'd be really good and I would play well. Would I possibly be better than Jaedong if I have 10 professional games under my belt, and he has over 400 matches under his. Mind you, I am talking about professional, televised matches. Of course I wouldn't be better than him by default because my winrate is maybe 20% higher. Especially not since I do not have the experience that my opponent has. This is why I am against judging winrates without looking at the percentage AND amount of total games. Other point here : If I were to practice 12 hours per day and get the chance of getting towards tournaments, I eventually would hit a point where my experience, practice and individual skill all come together to a peak moment and in which I would be a "good" player, right? From outside perspective, the major difference for players like Fruitdealer, NesTea etc is the difference I just kind of described. They barely get the chance to play those topgames and to practice. So inevitably it also means they can draw LESS on their experience due to having less chances. Especially if you say that your own coach, someone who should drive you to the maximum, is saying publicly that he thinks that player X is shit. Coming back to my TL size comment : I have no doubts that the community that was in BW-times was really nice, mature and stuff. However we've evolved on this site with the introduction of a new game, and a lot of people are coming here. The attitude of a lot of the old BW-fans on this website, is also often a reason people don't like it here anymore. This article only makes that feeling even stronger. I've never played BW. But when I read a heap of rude bias and offensive style of writing such as this, I feel like this website is degrading slowly into the depths of elitism and flamefests.
That's not quite right, though. All the players practice for hours a day against their teammates. The B-teamers play practice games against the A-teamers. Even the online practice partners, who aren't officially part of a team, get to practice against the A-teamers who are often sent out. They also hold in-house ranking tournaments. If you saw the OGS house visit video from months back where the Liquid players also got to compete and that determined who was on A and who was on B team status, that was taken directly from BW training houses. If you didn't perform well in practice, you weren't sent out in leagues. Simple as that. What it meant was that you weren't good enough to be sent out to compete with the other teams, so yes, playing less does mean that you are considered a worse player than players who are sent out. Even those players with horrendous winrates like MVP were far superior to players who were rarely or never sent out like MKP, Bomber, and MC. That's actually how they motivated the players to do well. If you did well in practice, you got the chance to be sent out. That's why, if you read many of the BW interviews, players often say that another player is amazing in practice, but doesn't perform well in televised matches. It's precisely because they are so good in practice that they are sent out.
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I think the CFL comparison is accurate. Even in Canada the number of people watching the CFL is dwarfed exponentially by the people watching the NFL.
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EPT
