|
On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me.
If someone created a thread like that about BW and SC2 it would be interesting.
This article is a mix of statistics and logic AND bias. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time looking at what they write to see if it's as unbiased and credible as possible. Things like "competition is a farse" and "ST training IS bad" are just opinions and not in any way measurable. As i've said before, different people thrive in different training environments. You can't just say "this kind of training regiment is best for BW/SC2" or "This person was bad 3 years ago in BW, so he's just as bad in SC2. But SC2 is easy so he's winning". Maybe a player grew and developed with different kind of training/coaching, maybe the difference between the games did wonders for his playstyle/development. There's just so many variables that are completely ignored by the OP that i find it uninteresting and quite biased.
|
On May 12 2011 21:42 Magic_Mike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 Sumsi wrote:Anyone mentioned that the amount of fangirls is much higher when watching BW progames?  When watching the GSL I feel just seeing a Starcraft game without an audience. There's this thing called the internet. There are a lot of people watching the GSL. Just because they aren't watching it live and in person doesn't mean it doesn't have a large audience. Where do you think the GSL gets all it's money from, the handful of people who happen to be in SK to watch it or the hundreds of thousands if not millions who watch it online. Sponsors?
But my point was rather that watching a game with ProGamers a lot of people cheer for is far more exciting than watching a SC2 game between nobodies on GSL with no audience.
But thats just my personal impression.
|
On May 12 2011 21:38 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:35 ondema wrote:
This is the definition of a good article- one which provides a legitimate discussion point to a community. Whether the article is true or not is to be seen, but more credit should be given to this phenomenal piece of writing.
Kudos intrigue, well done. What is the discussion point you gleamed from the article?
This:
On May 12 2011 21:26 VGhost wrote:I'm not sure where the SC2 vs BW is being read into this. intrigue never says it directly, but it seems pretty evident to me that the lesson we learn here is: Come on, SC2 teams, get your act together and start practicing ffs.+ Show Spoiler +
He mentions this a little in bringing up the SlayerS practice schedule, but then let's it drop.
Why did Koreans dominate BW?
Practice.
Why are we seeing some teams/people setting up Korean-style team houses?
Practice.
You want to be good enough at SC2 that BW pros can't just switch over and kick your ass?
Practice.
Granted, there's a sort of disincentive to practice "too much" at the moment due to the fact that we know there are incoming patches and expansions (lots of patches, lots)... but in the meantime, you want to win you have to practice.
Prediction: if we don't see a continuing spread of a "Korean model" outside of Korea, in five years Korean SC2 teams will be on top of SC2 again, for good. You can talk about SC2 being "faster" and "more volatile" but the game's like a max of two years old and is constantly being patched, which favors innovation and adaptability over study. Once the game is defined (no more balance patches every six weeks), the people who practice hard and study the game will take over again.
|
On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased.
Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with.
You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all.
|
On May 12 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone created a thread like that about BW and SC2 it would be interesting. This article is a mix of statistics and logic AND bias. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time looking at what they write to see if it's as unbiased and credible as possible. Things like "competition is a farse" and "ST training IS bad" are just opinions and not in any way measurable. As i've said before, different people thrive in different training environments. You can't just say "this kind of training regiment is best for BW/SC2" or "This person was bad 3 years ago in BW, so he's just as bad in SC2. But SC2 is easy so he's winning". Maybe a player grew and developed with different kind of training/coaching, maybe the difference between the games did wonders for his playstyle/development. There's just so many variables that are completely ignored by the OP that i find it uninteresting and quite biased.
It's an editorial, it's supposed to have bias.
|
On May 12 2011 21:42 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:35 DminusTerran wrote:On May 12 2011 21:32 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:how about we all ignore this
This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
one sentence and all be happy? There are a few more that are similarly toned, and honestly I would be perfectly fine with the article as a whole if they were removed. It just goes to show you should probably have an impartial eye do the editing. Though I guess that would've taken out the inflammatory context of the article that the author intended all along though. but cant people jsut read something without getting overdefensive over some personal subtext? i like watching the german basketball league. if there was a article about how it would be if NBA teams/players suddenly switched over i would love to read that even tho it sure as hell would dismiss almost the entire german scene as inferior.
Read the article again. It is written that way and it's intended to be written that way. Words work in certain ways and when you write an article you have to understand that the phrasing and word choice you use will inform how others understand the intent of your statements. If Intrigue truly has no grasp of the concept then he shouldn't have written this.
|
On May 12 2011 21:42 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:34 zerglingsfolife wrote:On May 12 2011 21:32 thesmoosh wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. This. I've seen this same old tripe in other games, AoC vs AoEIII for example. The old game was always somehow mystically better, usually because the AI and interface were retarded and required robot-like mechanics. And if skill translates so well, why is Boxer so flaky? Why does Nada lose to average players constantly? Why is 2nd place the best July can do after two seasons, and why does he lose to some random foreigner in the GSL WC? You've built up your heroes in to gods and can't stand it when they disappoint your lofty expectations. I guess that's the problem with people who've never played at the top level of a competitive mental sport - they see these players as superhuman and cannot relate to them. Why don't you read the editorial? It has a section separately for why the legends aren't great. I did. It was just a bunch of rationalization and made up guesses as to why they suck. The only factual evidence was that Nada's win rate had dropped a whole 4% towards the end. Yeah, total slump... NOT.
If you were a BW fan then you would know that the greats like nada, july and boxer became more and more painful to watch from 2008 to 2010. In your heart you wanted them to pull out the amazing imulsive innovative play that they so easily did in their prime, and sometimes they did, but they just weren't the same players. They struggled to compete with the new age robotic youngsters, whether it be due to age, multitasking deficit or failing to expand and adapt their game. Some games were downright embarrasing to watch.
The Nada we've seen in the last few years is NOT the Nada from his golden years.
|
They will all come here eventually. But will Flash and Jaedong still be Flash and Jaedong then? I see no reason for them to quit BW while they are still so unbeatable. I only see them switching over to SC2 when they start slowing down due to age and start losing to the next generation of BW pros. In a way, SC2 is like the golf of e-sports. It takes skill as much as any other sports but it is much less physically demanding so it attracts the older athletes. I'm afraid that we won't be seeing top BW players in their prime playing this game unless bw completely dies out. I wouldn't want that to happen however.
|
When I found out Zergbong won the GSL, I had pretty much the same reaction as this article.
"Ah, so the good BW players haven't come over yet."
|
On May 12 2011 21:43 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:36 theMiNUS wrote:
i have no opinion on the skills of BW pros vs SC2 pros... but it is my humble opinion that BW is just a terrible spectator eSport, a horrible thing to watch... i don't think BW has the same capacity to attract "new fans" as does SC2, just because of the terrible graphics... If growing eSports is our goal, then the answer lies in SC2. LOOL Oh god please tell me this is sarcasm... e-sports has grown due to Broodwar, ffs. This really shows how little the people trying to argue here know about the scene.
Yeah, and Pele made soccer grow. But you cant honestly say that BW is what bring in new people to watch and follow E-sport. The legacy of BW is a great one and have had the biggest impact on E-sport (rts's anyway) but nowadays SC2 is what brings new people to the scene.
|
Nice article  ... hmmm Please give me examples of those "incentives"...
|
On May 12 2011 21:51 biskit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased. Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with. You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all.
Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene. All depends on how each person takes it in.
|
On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me.
If someone went onto a CS site and called the entire CS scene a farce, talked about how he couldn't really enjoy watching CS and then went on about how Quake players were so much better that they could just switched over and roll over all the opposition I'm pretty sure the response would not be constructive interest.
On May 12 2011 21:53 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:51 biskit wrote:On May 12 2011 21:40 Senx wrote:
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased. Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with. You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all. Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene.
We are pretty happy with our scene thanks.
|
Nice article but i dont really understand why you write about this. It doesnt matter how good the players winning the GSL are but i know that they are the best in this game atm. So why flame them? If players like Flash begin to play sc2 then they maybe will win everything but until that happens players like MC will be the best in sc2 and you should accept them as that and not as stupid noobs who just play sc2 cuz they are to bad for bw. Without these guys sc2 wouldnt be what it is now and it would never grow into something as big as bw so that these epic players like flash get into sc2.
|
On May 12 2011 21:51 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:50 karpo wrote:On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:33 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 21:25 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 21:01 Saechiis wrote:On May 12 2011 20:37 zatic wrote:On May 12 2011 20:31 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote:
I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about. On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it? Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote: "Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic." So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry. How is it hard to understand? It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ... The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison. Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this. The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW. Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce? You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake. It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me. If someone created a thread like that about BW and SC2 it would be interesting. This article is a mix of statistics and logic AND bias. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time looking at what they write to see if it's as unbiased and credible as possible. Things like "competition is a farse" and "ST training IS bad" are just opinions and not in any way measurable. As i've said before, different people thrive in different training environments. You can't just say "this kind of training regiment is best for BW/SC2" or "This person was bad 3 years ago in BW, so he's just as bad in SC2. But SC2 is easy so he's winning". Maybe a player grew and developed with different kind of training/coaching, maybe the difference between the games did wonders for his playstyle/development. There's just so many variables that are completely ignored by the OP that i find it uninteresting and quite biased. It's an editorial, it's supposed to have bias.
Ok! I'll just say away from future editorials then. I have no interest reading long comprehensive articles that don't try to argue a point objectively.
|
On May 12 2011 21:49 Musou wrote:
That's not quite right, though. All the players practice for hours a day against their teammates. The B-teamers play practice games against the A-teamers. Even the online practice partners, who aren't officially part of a team, get to practice against the A-teamers who are often sent out. They also hold in-house ranking tournaments. If you saw the OGS house visit video from months back where the Liquid players also got to compete and that determined who was on A and who was on B team status, that was taken directly from BW training houses. If you didn't perform well in practice, you weren't sent out in leagues. Simple as that. What it meant was that you weren't good enough to be sent out to compete with the other teams, so yes, playing less does mean that you are considered a worse player than players who are sent out. Even those players with horrendous winrates like MVP were far superior to players who were rarely or never sent out like MKP, Bomber, and MC. That's actually how they motivated the players to do well. If you did well in practice, you got the chance to be sent out. That's why, if you read many of the BW interviews, players often say that another player is amazing in practice, but doesn't perform well in televised matches. It's precisely because they are so good in practice that they are sent out.
In other words.
If I am unable to play at my height in practice matches, but I am able to crush anyone when it's a tournament then I still can't go and see someone who is shit at televised matches lose his rounds while I would've won that, figuratively speaking?
This is flawed and does not represent skill. You can be good at the game but if you're only good in your secluded teamhouse and not on stage then you're not a worthy professional. Why you think players like Flash and Jaedong are so good outside their skillset. They can handle the pressure of TV matches and alike.
|
OP you might want to add this little line in at the end of your post.
TLDR; Some people are really talented at RTSes and BW having been around for over a decade managed to get quite a few of these guys ( Herp derp ) also they practiced a lot and got really good. If they came over to SC2 and practiced just as much then they would totally dominate everyone in the scene.
Yeaaaahhhhhh. No shit sherlock. =)
You feel like you can't enjoy the games just because the players aren't practicing it 20 hours a day? I mean sure there are really boring games out there but REALLY? Instead of just going " Oh I hate shitty bad cheesy games " Or " Oh I hate boring 50 minute games that involves 90% macro then one big battle " You are actually just going to say " Omg I hate it when players dont practice more "
I'm not going to say anymore, Just think about it for a second and I really hope I don't have to point out how ridiculous this is to you. I know this might take awhile ( Afterall you were the author of this article ) but I'll wait =)
|
On May 12 2011 21:54 k3m4 wrote:
Nice article but i dont really understand why you write about this. It doesnt matter how good the players winning the GSL are but i know that they are the best in this game atm. So why flame them? If players like Flash begin to play sc2 then they maybe will win everything but until that happens players like MC will be the best in sc2 and you should accept them as that and not as stupid noobs who just play sc2 cuz they are to bad for bw. Without these guys sc2 wouldnt be what it is now and it would never grow into something as big as bw so that these epic players like flash get into sc2.
He wasn't flaming them. He was merely stating facts. Interpret the data how you will but those were their records from their stint in bw.
|
Easy to see the progamers just be comfortable where they are, dominating a game they've played for years.
Why not test their skills to master another game, hell if i had already been on their salaries for a few years, money wouldn't be an issue, getting bored and wanting a new challenge would be.
BW will not last forever, sc2 will take over completely, it's just a matter of when. They need to get on the sc2 train now before it leaves them behind.
|
I agree but also the skill ceiling for BW was way higher IMHO than SC2. I don't think anyone will dominate like Flash and Jaedong there just isn't enough micro to obliterate a bad player purely with your micro skill like in BW. If they do dominate blizzard will just patch out everything they do. :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
