On May 12 2011 21:25 raviy wrote: Ignoring the bunch of ad hominems in there...
Those players played less professional matches because their teams thought they sucked too hard to field them regularly in proleague, and they sucked too hard to get playtime in the individual leagues. So the mere fact that they played less is more proof of their mediocrity.
And TL has a long history, its members friendly and mature.
Whether SC2 is popular, or caused TLnet to have greater viewership does not add to the argument.
The fact that you seem to suggest that TL should only post articles that glorify SC2, because that's what the majority want to see speaks volumes about your character. They have a word for that kind of behaviour, it's called pandering.
Before things get out of context. I read this article from a neutral point of view regarding BW. I have not played it and it may be a long while till I do. However I do feel that the tone of the whole editorial is so offensive and rude towards people that don't play/revere SCBW that I >will< say something about it.
From a neutral point of view, I feel that someone can never be judged on purely the % of games. Imagine I'd be really good and I would play well. Would I possibly be better than Jaedong if I have 10 professional games under my belt, and he has over 400 matches under his. Mind you, I am talking about professional, televised matches.
Of course I wouldn't be better than him by default because my winrate is maybe 20% higher. Especially not since I do not have the experience that my opponent has. This is why I am against judging winrates without looking at the percentage AND amount of total games. Other point here :
If I were to practice 12 hours per day and get the chance of getting towards tournaments, I eventually would hit a point where my experience, practice and individual skill all come together to a peak moment and in which I would be a "good" player, right? From outside perspective, the major difference for players like Fruitdealer, NesTea etc is the difference I just kind of described. They barely get the chance to play those topgames and to practice. So inevitably it also means they can draw LESS on their experience due to having less chances. Especially if you say that your own coach, someone who should drive you to the maximum, is saying publicly that he thinks that player X is shit.
Coming back to my TL size comment : I have no doubts that the community that was in BW-times was really nice, mature and stuff. However we've evolved on this site with the introduction of a new game, and a lot of people are coming here. The attitude of a lot of the old BW-fans on this website, is also often a reason people don't like it here anymore. This article only makes that feeling even stronger.
I've never played BW. But when I read a heap of rude bias and offensive style of writing such as this, I feel like this website is degrading slowly into the depths of elitism and flamefests.
I made my point.
All I can say is. TL is elitist. And that's why it's great. The mods dutifully ban and warn for trolling, posts that are offtopic, posts that add no substance to the thread, posts that just contain some internet meme, posts that demostrate the poster didn't read the OP... etc etc. Most of these posts would be acceptable in most forums. Not here, not on TL. Because the community is elitist, and that's why I love it.
I haven't watched much Broodwar although i have tried on several occasions (it looks horrible so why bother when there's something nice looking to watch) and to be honest I think there's a flaw in the OPs logic somewhere. As has been said many times, they are 2 different games. Saying the standard of the tournaments in sc2 is rubbish because the standard in Broodwar is better is like saying the standard in badminton tournaments is rubbish because tennis tournaments have a higher standard. Just because theres a higher standard of players (maybe (the statistics used, like all statistics were obviously muddled around to suit the OP's needs)) in a different sport doesn't mean that it's a farce. Nestea, MC and Mvp are currently some of the top sc2 players. What difference does it make whether some people think that a Broodwar player might be able to play better than them? They're Broodwar players, not sc2.
On May 12 2011 21:56 badboymav wrote: Easy to see the progamers just be comfortable where they are, dominating a game they've played for years.
Why not test their skills to master another game, hell if i had already been on their salaries for a few years, money wouldn't be an issue, getting bored and wanting a new challenge would be.
BW will not last forever, sc2 will take over completely, it's just a matter of when. They need to get on the sc2 train now before it leaves them behind.
SC2 is not even a complete game yet. What do you see in it that made you think it will replace BW?
Idra on stream even stated that "if someone like Stork switched over and played Protoss, he wouldn't lose a single game." That statement is pretty remarkable by itself, and I think it captures your argument quite well.
On May 12 2011 21:59 Callous wrote: This is a great article.
Idra on stream even stated that "if someone like Stork switched over and played Protoss, he wouldn't lose a single game." That statement is pretty remarkable by itself, and I think it captures your argument quite well.
This whole argument reminds me of the whole Kung Fu vs. MMA thread we had a while back. Poster 1: Kung Fu is much better than flashy MMA. We've been practicing it for thousands of years to a perfection and our victories over each other require much more skill and ingenuity than you're new easy to learn martial art. Poster 2: Then why are there no Kung Fu master's dominating in MMA? Poster 1:......Because we don't want to. Naaah.(Peter Griffon voice) Poster 1: We spend the vast majority of our lives learning how to do these moves (build orders), even moving in to monasteries (team houses) so we can spend more time doing it and these noobs who only play a few hours a day in MMA think they are on the same level as us. Poster 2: Your practice is outdated. These practice techniques are much more effective. The argument is ridiculous. While similar to an extent, both martial arts require a different skill set as well as mentality. If anything, the accomplishment of Brood War pros adds to and does not detract in the lease from the exploits of SC2 pros.
On May 12 2011 20:53 Senx wrote: Why are people so offended? This is just the opinion of one writer on TL.net.
Then put it in the blogs along with all the FLASH SUX BISU IS KIGN AND HANDSOEM opinions and not on the frontpage? Right now it's not just intrigue looking like an ignorant BW elitist, but Teamliquid as a whole.
No you're just overly defense because someone happens to critize the players of "your" game.
Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue).
Did you really miss these? There was two of those in the article.
If someone went to the SC2 general board and criticized MC/MVP/NesTea while spouting that they are trash compared to Flash, it would be locked within 10 minutes. Even if it had numbers, statistics, and professional level editing.
Do you not see a problem here? 80% of this website is now SC2 followers.
Active : 8325 Logged in : 2219
If you look at these numbers a year and a half ago it would be
Active : 1200 Logged in :145
But do you not see the detailed and structured editorial he wrote? Its not a fucking blog post, he wrote a long and good Final Edit. It has content. Shitty threads with no content gets locked, this is not one of those.
Agree or Disagree with it, its well written and brings up interesting points. Don't fucking act like it should be treated like a blog post just because it includes an opinion that you don't like to see.
Opinions aren't news, explaining how BW players compare to SC2's players does nothing for SC2 fans besides saying that their game is inferior.
Do you really think a site for racket sports would publish an article saying:
Tennis players are better than Badminton players:
Nadal and Federer can hit harder and have faster reaction time, they're so inherently talented that if they switched to badminton they'd dominate the scene, they just don't want to because they make more money playing Tennis anyways. The bad tennis players go to play badminton, because it's easy.
Reader responses:
BadminTony920:
This is completely relevant to my love for playing and watching Badminton, I now understand I like it in a way that a fat kid falling from the stairs is fun to watch. It doesn't feel like a degrading article at all, racketsports ftw!
Notnimdab:
60 pages of user submitted replies, clearly people are utterly thankful and in total agreement, lots of replies are usually a sign of non-controversy. Glad that mods acknowledge it's neutral message.
ShuttleMuppet:
I ahve no legs! +3 people liked this reply.
TennistheMenace: All evidence in this article is circumstancial and the conclusions pointless and demeaning to people that play Badminton ... I applaud racketsports™ for putting it on the frontpage.
On May 12 2011 21:56 nekolux wrote: You feel like you can't enjoy the games just because the players aren't practicing it 20 hours a day? I mean sure there are really boring games out there but REALLY? Instead of just going " Oh I hate shitty bad cheesy games " Or " Oh I hate boring 50 minute games that involves 90% macro then one big battle " You are actually just going to say " Omg I hate it when players dont practice more "
I'm not going to say anymore, Just think about it for a second and I really hope I don't have to point out how ridiculous this is to you. I know this might take awhile ( Afterall you were the author of this article ) but I'll wait =)
The argument of the article (at least as I understand it) is that without being super-duper-10-hours-a-day-Starcraft-is-a-fucking-job-serious, the highest level players will always be susceptible to snipers and cheese and there won't be any serious "pros", per se.
I'm not sure whether I agree with the implicit assumption that the Korean BW scene is the epitome of eSports development and no other system will work, but hey, everybody's got an opinion.
"Was ThorZaIN vs oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?"
OMFG SPIT OUT MY FOOD.
hahah this post made my day. edumacate them sc2 players intrigue!
Although i understand your point in your writing Intrigue, you didn't really touch on the age of both games, which i feel plays a huge role in this entire arguement.
BW was not always perfect, and the players were not always perfect (some would argue Flash and Jaedong are the best there will ever be). The game and community had to start from somewhere. Players had to pioneer the game to what it is today, both in balance and spectator friendly.
SC2 may be getting the "not so good players" at the moment, but the game is barely a year old, and everyone started a fresh. Yes they are two seperate games, and yes the mechanics can be carried from one to another. BUT once again, these players are molding the game in its current form. And it is still amazing to watch, no matter how good they were at a different game.
There is excitement in both. Just because you may have been watching BW for years and you obviously worship you idols there, it doesn't mean SC2 can't have new players to cheer for. Hell, maybe even a more "laid-back" approach is what some people prefer when it comes to practicing, and it may be this approach that makes them a more happier person.
If all the new SC2 teams are taking a more "laid-back" approach, maybe it says something about the BW scene, and the rigorous hours and time that must be kept. Maybe, just maybe, the players that switched want a balance in their lives, just like anyone does in the jobs they do around the world. As you say, these players are switching to make money, but they are also switching for a new approach, and a new culture. As any education teacher will tell you, there is more than one way to learn, and more than one way to improve, and all individuals are just that: individual.
All this being said, i can understand both sides of the table. And its a discussion that will never truely gain 100% support either way. I just believe if you can enjoy both games for what they are, and the players for who they are as people, then the enjoyment of e-sports as a whole will be better.
On May 12 2011 21:49 Musou wrote: That's not quite right, though. All the players practice for hours a day against their teammates. The B-teamers play practice games against the A-teamers. Even the online practice partners, who aren't officially part of a team, get to practice against the A-teamers who are often sent out. They also hold in-house ranking tournaments. If you saw the OGS house visit video from months back where the Liquid players also got to compete and that determined who was on A and who was on B team status, that was taken directly from BW training houses. If you didn't perform well in practice, you weren't sent out in leagues. Simple as that. What it meant was that you weren't good enough to be sent out to compete with the other teams, so yes, playing less does mean that you are considered a worse player than players who are sent out. Even those players with horrendous winrates like MVP were far superior to players who were rarely or never sent out like MKP, Bomber, and MC. That's actually how they motivated the players to do well. If you did well in practice, you got the chance to be sent out. That's why, if you read many of the BW interviews, players often say that another player is amazing in practice, but doesn't perform well in televised matches. It's precisely because they are so good in practice that they are sent out.
In other words. If I am unable to play at my height in practice matches, but I am able to crush anyone when it's a tournament then I still can't go and see someone who is shit at televised matches lose his rounds while I would've won that, figuratively speaking?
This is flawed and does not represent skill. You can be good at the game but if you're only good in your secluded teamhouse and not on stage then you're not a worthy professional. Why you think players like Flash and Jaedong are so good outside their skillset. They can handle the pressure of TV matches and alike.
If there were ever a case like that which you stated, yes. However, the truth is, there is no such person who only dominates during a competition and constantly fails during practice. Top players in practice may not be able to handle pressure from TV matches and that is something they need to get over, which is why we often see some players get sent out over and over despite losing every time we see them. They earned the right to be there by playing well in practice. If you don't do well in practice, what makes you think you would do well on stage? The world simply doesn't work like that. The top players like Flash and Jaedong are just that good in practice as well as on stage. Hoejja said it best during Old Boy. When you play 10 games against Flash in 1 day, you forget how to win. He's just that good.
This is all kind of irrelevant. Just because the top SC2 pros are better at this game then they were at BW doesnt mean that the competition is a farce in the lease. We are spectating the best talent that the SC2 community has at this point, just becaue Jaedong and Flash would be better doesnt mean you can discount MC and the rest of the SC2 pros.
imo this is just a bad way to add more fire to the BW vs SC2 flame war
On May 12 2011 21:49 Musou wrote: That's not quite right, though. All the players practice for hours a day against their teammates. The B-teamers play practice games against the A-teamers. Even the online practice partners, who aren't officially part of a team, get to practice against the A-teamers who are often sent out. They also hold in-house ranking tournaments. If you saw the OGS house visit video from months back where the Liquid players also got to compete and that determined who was on A and who was on B team status, that was taken directly from BW training houses. If you didn't perform well in practice, you weren't sent out in leagues. Simple as that. What it meant was that you weren't good enough to be sent out to compete with the other teams, so yes, playing less does mean that you are considered a worse player than players who are sent out. Even those players with horrendous winrates like MVP were far superior to players who were rarely or never sent out like MKP, Bomber, and MC. That's actually how they motivated the players to do well. If you did well in practice, you got the chance to be sent out. That's why, if you read many of the BW interviews, players often say that another player is amazing in practice, but doesn't perform well in televised matches. It's precisely because they are so good in practice that they are sent out.
In other words. If I am unable to play at my height in practice matches, but I am able to crush anyone when it's a tournament then I still can't go and see someone who is shit at televised matches lose his rounds while I would've won that, figuratively speaking?
This is flawed and does not represent skill. You can be good at the game but if you're only good in your secluded teamhouse and not on stage then you're not a worthy professional. Why you think players like Flash and Jaedong are so good outside their skillset. They can handle the pressure of TV matches and alike.
But they weren't good at televised matches. They all had poor records. In addition they weren't good in practice. They weren't "able to crush anyone when it's a tournament" and they weren't good during practice.
On May 12 2011 21:57 raviy wrote: All I can say is. TL is elitist. And that's why it's great. The mods dutifully ban and warn for trolling, posts that are offtopic, posts that add no substance to the thread, posts that just contain some internet meme, posts that demostrate the poster didn't read the OP... etc etc. Most of these posts would be acceptable in most forums. Not here, not on TL. Because the community is elitist, and that's why I love it.
I do not classify the removal of trolls and such as elitist. That's just good forum policy. What I do classify as elitist is the behaviour of old BW players and fans towards the new SC2 fans. The arrogant attitude such as this editorial, which looks down upon everyone who was unlucky enough to not experience the "great broodwar era".
On May 12 2011 20:20 zatic wrote: I don't get why people get so angry and see this as an attack on SC2 or even "the entire SC2 community" as someone in this thread puts it.
I haven't touched BW in 1 1/2 years. I don't watch the streams anymore, I watch the occasional VOD. I couldn't tell you who is in what league or even just who is doing well.
I play SC2 whenever I can, follow every tournament, moderate the SC2 section of the site. I know many SC2 players personally, I go to live SC2 events whenever I have the opportunity. I am part of the SC2 community probably more than most people here. Still I see no reason whatsover to get riled up over this article. Why can't you people just relax? There is nothing offensive in the OP to get angry about.
On the front page of teamliquid.net there is an article calling the entire SC2 scene a farce, the article behind the link repeats that in giant bold text and then goes on to call SC2 games unenjoyable. You're surprised people are responding negatively to it?
Yes I am. I am part of that entire SC2 scene as I pointed out, I have read the article and I don't feel the author called me "a farce". The author also said he can't enjoy SC2 games fully, not that SC2 games aren't enjoyable. Quite the opposite actually, let me quote:
"Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic."
So again, I really don't see why everyone gets so angry.
How is it hard to understand?
It's an offical newpost on the largest Starcraft community site that is aimed at proving that BW competition > Starcraft 2 competition ...
The article is 100% aimed at convincing other people that SC2 competition is weak in comparison.
Yeah, so? Maybe it's just me, but I still see no reason to get angry over this.
The majority of the people seeing this article on your front page have never followed BW.
Why should we care about some Koreans who play a game we've never watched, what right does he have to tell us that the entire SC2 scene is a farce?
You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake.
It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me.
If someone went onto a CS site and called the entire CS scene a farce, talked about how he couldn't really enjoy watching CS and talked about how Quake players were so much better that they could just switched over and roll over all the opposition I'm pretty sure the response would not be constructive interest.
Well I should have known better than bringing up a comparison. My point is I don't see why anyone should get angry over this, much less even if they don't even know anything about BW. Obviously I see that this is happening I just don't get it.
So he's not allowed to think that BW > SC2 on a website that is based around starcraft? I'm confused.
You do know that Final Edits are made up of ONE persons opinions since.. always? They're supposed to be biased.
Of course he is allowed to state his opinion. And I am allowed to say that his opinion is not something I agree with.
You do know that the current majority of TL users are here to follow Starcraft 2 and not Brood War right? I still don't see how this flamebaiting article that divide the two communities is helping anyone at all.
Maybe it wasn't written to divide, but rather inform/educate the majority of Starcraft 2 users about the state of their scene.
We are pretty happy with our scene thanks.
Why the rage then? If you are happy take it for what it is.
On May 12 2011 21:59 Callous wrote: This is a great article.
Idra on stream even stated that "if someone like Stork switched over and played Protoss, he wouldn't lose a single game." That statement is pretty remarkable by itself, and I think it captures your argument quite well.
Which would actually just reinforce the point of this (if it happened), since on the BW scene Stork is the "huge talent, no work ethic" guy.
Of course this is very valid now, BW players have been at it for years and have had much greater incentive to do so; its common sense that a lot of those guys could make the move over with ease and dominate.
But give SC2 a few years, I mean how long does it even take for strategies to even settle and the real talent to rise to the top in a game like this? I am no hardcore follower but it seems like it is still barely finding its feet, there may be some stand out players but it seems tomorrow someone else is coming out of the wood work with equal ability, part of the fun of following this game is watching nobodies making names for themselves.
Hopefully in a few years we will have Euro and US scenes for SC2 like there is in Korea and this kind of subject will be redundant because at the end of the day if the money and ability to make a living is there the talent will be no different.
Lovely article intrigue. I agree with all your points, and I believe they are a lot of the reasons why the draw of competitive SC2 was snuffed out quickly in me. I'm perhaps more excited about the coming of the true BW pros that you... you seem cautious or apprehensive.
EPT
