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On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2.
Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps..
I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything.
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Hey this might be a god awful opinion piece that only looks at a situation from a very limited perspective that glorifies a training system that turns progamers into the personality void corporate shills that make BW about as interesting to non-BW fans as a high level backgammon tournament, but at least it isn't a 12 page terribly written 'epic' where the writer uses awful poetry and prose to describe how Flash did well this year!
Can't we just get rid of Final Edits and just replace it with a weekly Rekrul opinion column?
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Football (soccer): is such a simple game. everyone can play it in their backyard and be good at it-----> most popular sport worldwide, cuz it is so accessible, for everyone.
Baseball: Is a way more complicated sport. you need a bunch of stuff to be able to play it. complex. Super fun to watch if you understand it but not as accessible as football ----> not so popular outside America and Asia.
that is one of SC2 strength. accessibility. it does not mean it is a bad game cuz anyone can be good at it.
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On May 12 2011 22:15 Maenander wrote:
I don't think it is fair to say every brood war pro with a similar history as MVP or MC can make it in SC2. Those guys may just have been the raw gems among the grey mass of B-and low A-teamers, that just needed a new game with a level playing field to develop into star players.
It is not like players such as Thorzain or Kas were on the same level as Grubby or Moon in WC3, yet they arguably surpassed them in SC2.
Are you basing this off just TSL? I haven't seen much from any of the four players to decide who is better.
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On May 12 2011 22:13 TheButtonmen wrote:
It's not rage, it's annoyance that time after time BW players go on about how much greener the grass is on their side of the fence.
We don't need to be educated about the state of our scene, we don't need to be taught about all the BW players who didn't switch over, if the OP finds everything accomplished in SC2 so far a complete farce that he can't take seriously then why is he bothering to write up an article about it?
Just let us enjoy our game.
All this article does is drive yet another stake between the BW vets and the SC2 newcomers and the fact that it was put on the front page boggles me.
I'm not quite sure that the article had a purpose other than venting. The BW vets want to see some humility from the SC2 scene about all BW has done for them and continues to do for them, but this is definitely not the way to get it.
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intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest:
"If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans."
So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday?
I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough*  , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.).
-_-
You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world.
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On May 12 2011 22:16 Firkraag8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2. Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps.. I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything.
You obviously have no idea how crazy good a S-class player is. Boxer is good but Flash is on a whole other world. It doesn't have to be SC2. If Flash or Jaedong plays any RTS, they will dominate.
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On May 12 2011 22:08 dangots0ul wrote:
People are making all these SHITTY analogies of how expertise 1 people claim if they went to expertise 2 they would own. But, clearly they would not. You guys are just making strawmen arguments that are insult to both the readers and your own intelligence.
How about you considering if all the average people from expertise 1 switched to expertise 2 and they raped the scene. Wouldn't it make sense that the pro people from expertise 1 would rape the scene as well? (at least make ur analogy a waste of everyone's time?)
Millions of SC2 players... all 3 GSL winners are SC1 players. GSL S-Code is overloaded (statistically) with SC1 players. HMMMMM LET US USE OUR BRAIN???!?!?!
NAH.
"BUT LOOK AT BADMINTON/KUNG FU/OTHER EXPERISE"
child please.
Why is it ok for you and the op to make the analogies from one game to the next but not ok for us to do the same to refute the claims. Are the only analogies that we are allowed to use the ones that prove your point?
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well michael jordan has arguably one of the best work ethics, mindset, environment and genetics of any professional sports player ever. He is truly a superstar, just like flash and jaedong are for BW.
Didn't see him do too well in baseball though.
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On May 12 2011 22:16 Firkraag8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2. Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps.. I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything.
It's not based on assumption though, it's clear that from previous GSL results that even the bad/mediocre BW pros are considering the best players of SC2 right now.
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On May 12 2011 22:08 Zephirdd wrote:
Basically what this article is saying is "WELL, THESE GUYS ARE WINING, BUT THEY SUCK LOL LOOK AT THOSE ON THIS OTHER GAME HERE!"
They are the winners because they are playing SC2 and they are here. BW players are in BW, if new stars are to come into SC2 great, meanwhile the ones who shine here are MC, MVP and NesTea.
the man speaks truth
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very nice article, i agree on all of ur points
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On May 12 2011 22:16 Firkraag8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2. Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps.. I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything.
This is the entire problem with this 'opinion' article. The article is pretty much the equivalent of claiming Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer were to switch from tennis to badminton they'd still be dominating everyone (they're similar, they both have rackets and all), because they're 'outliers'. There is no factual basis for any of the statements made in the OP.
I'm sorry, but a post like this doesn't belong on the frontpage, simply because it only enlarges the gap between SC1 watchers/players and SC2 watchers/players. The SC1 vs SC2 pretty much held half of the forums hostage for several months, and this thread does absolutely nothing but bring that back.
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On May 12 2011 22:20 thesideshow wrote:
well michael jordan has arguably one of the best work ethics, mindset, environment and genetics of any professional sports player ever. He is truly a superstar, just like flash and jaedong are for BW.
Didn't see him do too well in baseball though.
I think we can all agree, though, that Bo knows baseball
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On May 12 2011 22:05 Lizarb wrote:
You can't really compare fx. Boxers's BW stats with 628 games to 12 games he played in SC2. And if you say yes, here is why:
BoxeR – 353-275 (56.21%)
BoxeR – 6-6 (50%)
So he played over 52 times as many games of BW. Or said in another way he played 1,9% the number of SC2 games compared to BW games.
Another argument. What would his win % be if he won or lost 20 more games?
BW 20 next games won: (353+20)-275 : 57,56% win rate
BW 20 next games lost: 353-(275+20) : 54,47% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in BW could change his win rate from +1,35% to -1,74%.
SC2 20 next games won: (6+20)-6 : 81,25% win rate
SC2 20 next games lost: 6-(6+20) : 18,75% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in SC2 could change his win rate from +31,25% to -31,25%.
Its quite easy to see the difference in impact. So preparing stats between 600+ games with 12 games hardly gives a realistic view. SC2 is still new, would properly be more fair to compare SC2 to when BW was 1-2 years old.
Last comment I have is, a great player can also be one who adapts to balance changes faster.
Did you even click on those links? the 6-6 refers to games he played in BW...
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=225&part=games&vs=all&league=any&map=any&from_year=2010&from_month=1&from_day=1&to_year=2011&to_month=5&to_day=1&action=Update
All you had to do was click the link and read the TLPD...
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I am saddened by this article. Why did it need to be written? What is the point other than to get people riled up?
The whole time reading this it felt as if the author wanted people to feel like the e-sport I enjoy was unworthy. Bad form in my opinion. I and many other people enjoy the time I spend playing and watching SC2, why shit on it?
So what if there are better people playing another game?
The whole thing felt like a well structured and well written troll post.
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Why is this inflammatory nonsense featured on the front page? Trying to alienate SC2 fans? Trying to make SC2 look like a bad esport? ..Or just projecting fantasies about BW progamers? How dominant they will be when (and if) they make the switch still remains to be seen. No amount of glorifying and amateur mindset analysis can change that.
I don't see how a statement like this could possibly spark any semblance of a creative or productive discussion. It just widens the community gaps we're trying to bridge here, and for what purpose? One poster's personal satisfaction? I did not expect TL's staff to highlight something this polarizing and useless.
Even if many among the "old guard" agree with intrigue's assessment of the situation, calling competition in SC2 a farce compared to almost any other game being played these days comes off as a bad joke... Not only is it not funny and downright wrong, but it's also bad for the community as a whole, and it's bad for the development of esports outside of Korea.
Like one of the previous posters noted, it looks more like a dead horse than an elephant.
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On May 12 2011 22:05 Lizarb wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You can't really compare fx. Boxers's BW stats with 628 games to 12 games he played in SC2. And if you say yes, here is why:
BoxeR – 353-275 (56.21%)
BoxeR – 6-6 (50%)
So he played over 52 times as many games of BW. Or said in another way he played 1,9% the number of SC2 games compared to BW games.
Another argument. What would his win % be if he won or lost 20 more games?
BW 20 next games won: (353+20)-275 : 57,56% win rate
BW 20 next games lost: 353-(275+20) : 54,47% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in BW could change his win rate from +1,35% to -1,74%.
SC2 20 next games won: (6+20)-6 : 81,25% win rate
SC2 20 next games lost: 6-(6+20) : 18,75% win rate
20 more games for Boxer in SC2 could change his win rate from +31,25% to -31,25%.
Its quite easy to see the difference in impact. So preparing stats between 600+ games with 12 games hardly gives a realistic view. SC2 is still new, would properly be more fair to compare SC2 to when BW was 1-2 years old.
Last comment I have is, a great player can also be one who adapts to balance changes faster.
He compared his BW games earlier in his career to his BW games near the end of his BW career... Same for other players.
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On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2.
You realize he's not arguing against that AT ALL right? Kind of reflects extra poorly on you after that snide remark bringing his capability of reading into question... He's saying there's no point in making claims you can't back up and that it's just fuel for pointless arguments (in this case, that an S-class BW player would dominate SC2 if they switched over). Did you click on the wrong quote button or something?
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so ... who are these fine gentlemen mentioned in OP (some Flash, Jeadong, Bisu ...) because I can't find them in SC2 ladder anywhere  and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
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EPT
