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Braavos36402 Posts
On May 12 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote:intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest: "If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans." So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday? I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough*  , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.). -_- You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world.
No, he's saying that Tasteless and Artosis say that the ex-BW pros that are winning now in SC2 were "sick good" at BW, but actually those pros weren't very good at all.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 21:56 nekolux wrote:
OP you might want to add this little line in at the end of your post.
TLDR; Some people are really talented at RTSes and BW having been around for over a decade managed to get quite a few of these guys ( Herp derp ) also they practiced a lot and got really good. If they came over to SC2 and practiced just as much then they would totally dominate everyone in the scene.
Yeaaaahhhhhh. No shit sherlock. =)
You feel like you can't enjoy the games just because the players aren't practicing it 20 hours a day? I mean sure there are really boring games out there but REALLY? Instead of just going " Oh I hate shitty bad cheesy games " Or " Oh I hate boring 50 minute games that involves 90% macro then one big battle " You are actually just going to say " Omg I hate it when players dont practice more "
I'm not going to say anymore, Just think about it for a second and I really hope I don't have to point out how ridiculous this is to you. I know this might take awhile ( Afterall you were the author of this article ) but I'll wait =)
Where do people like you ^ come from and who do you think you are?
.... stop smiling. You will never have to point anything out to anyone.
I watch almost exclusively sc2 now (for better or worse) and for no moment would i say that top level competition brushes the possibilities. Every game both players are not safe at times and make several mistakes (sometimes very small) its like watching players trip and fall while playing sports.
It is trivilized because they are not as talented. Yes this is because its a new game. and no its not going to get "older" more well rounded and perfect without hours and hours and hours of practice.
If it stagnates meaning the people winning the gsls are just playing casually then we will never reach this level of play. They used to pack stadiums full of fans... massive stadiums... on beaches.
On May 12 2011 21:52 bonifaceviii wrote:
When I found out Zergbong won the GSL, I had pretty much the same reaction as this article.
"Ah, so the good BW players haven't come over yet."
Its worse than a fourth line ice hockey player being mvp and captain of the splanley cup champion team of blice hockey.
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Calgary26004 Posts
It's a good article, but I wish the focus was more on "SC2 has a ways to go. Once strategies become more solid, pros will have to begin training much more seriously and competently."
Instead we go "SC2 is just cute. When any BW pros switch over they will dominate" which really serves no purpose.
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On May 12 2011 22:20 thesideshow wrote:
well michael jordan has arguably one of the best work ethics, mindset, environment and genetics of any professional sports player ever. He is truly a superstar, just like flash and jaedong are for BW.
Didn't see him do too well in baseball though.
Different skillset, though, clearly.
BW -> SC2 is more like changing the court size a bit, changing the size or height of the basket a little bit - the concept of the game is still the same. Here, SC2 is still an RTS. You want to say "Flash would be no good at CS", fine, that's plausible, but I don't understand this "ffuuu, SC2 has a different skillset" thing. The three chief element - strategy, micro, macro - are all there still, even if they're done a little different.
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On May 12 2011 21:41 zatic wrote:
You keep saying that as if it has anything to do with the OP. I never followed Quake either but if someone from Quake would come and argue with valid statistics and sounds logic that Quake pros could come an wipe the floor with CS players (a game I used to follow religiously) I still wouldn't get all up in arms about it. If anything I'd be interested and read / watch more about Quake.
It appears to me there is a group of SC2 players who have a deep hatred or BW without ever having played or followed it. And that is something that is just beyond me.
I don't think that is the case at all. At least, I haven't seen any sort of anti-BW posts or articles written by SC2 players, on any site. If there is a major example I missed, I'd love to read it.
The author of this article used some inflammatory and aggressive language while making his point and people are rising up in defense of what they enjoy. What is there not to get about that? It's not an irrational response to someone that demeans something you love and enjoy. Yes, we're well aware that the best RTS players are the Koreans playing BW. If you post a similar article on a major site for another RTS you'll get the same types of responses.
I did play through the campaign for SC1 and Broodwar and watched quite a bit of games. When I went to college, I mostly forgot about it. When SC2 was announced, I got into it again. I agree with what you said about it sparking more interest. It got me watching more BW play. I still don't want to play it again myself, though.
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While there are some noteworthy points to the article, saying the whole SC2 scene up until now is a farce because people in BW aren't playing it is just pure frantic broodwar fanboy babble. Would BW pros do well in SC2? Of course. Would Flash / Jaedong dominate SC2? Probably given the reasons you stated, what does that mean to the current SC2 top tier players though? Just because MC didn't do spectacular in BW we're willing to say that he's a terrible player? The same for MVP. This whole article makes the singular assumption of SC:BW stats automatically carry over to SC2 which is quite dumb.
Hey guys lets make the assumption that people never improve and never change!
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On May 12 2011 22:23 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote:intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest: "If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans." So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday? I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough* , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.). -_- You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world. No, he's saying that Tasteless and Artosis say that the ex-BW pros that are winning now in SC2 were "sick good" at BW, but actually those pros weren't very good at all.
Ah Ok, I guess I skimmed it too fast. My bad.
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United States7483 Posts
Obvious point is obvious:
SC2 has a much improved user interface and AI, and does not require nearly as much macro mechanics to play well. It certainly does require some, but you don't have to select each building, micro workers, and micro your dragoons to keep them from being retarded, for example. As a result, mechanics are less emphasized (although still important), so someone who did not have the mechanics to play at the highest level of Brood War can play at the theoretical highest level of SC2.
That said, Flash or Jaedong could spend all the time they spend managing their economy back home on managing more military units, and gain an edge that way that we don't see current players doing.
Regardless, game sense, decision making and planning are the primary determinants of SC2, while mechanics were the single largest factor of Brood War.
The game requires a different set of skills to perform well, so naturally some people who were bad at Brood War can be quite good at SC2.
I anticipate mechanics becoming more important as time goes on though, and players discover better answers to the situations they find themselves in.
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Bit confused here. Pretty decent article. 7/10. I liked the bit about Guemchi. Really puts into perspective (if you accept one pros opinion of one team's practise to be of any value) the attitude of Korean SC2 players. But i don't get the point. Not from the writer's perspective, his agenda is glaringly obvious. But why would TL, a site which i would assume wants e-sports to succeed at the time when the growth potential is highest, promote in the biggest way possible an article which condemns the entire SC2 scene from top to bottom?
That's pretty amazing, and i sure as shit can't accuse Liquid of not having balls. I feel sorry for any team trying to get a sponsor on board who happens to see this article and start asking questions. This site doesn't get a lot of traffic right?
*crosses fingers*
Also what's this talk about Heart of the Swarm and players switching over? I feel like i'm missing something obvious: why does HotS mean BW pros will switch to SC2? I've heard this a lot lately. Also the only indications of people switching over are a couple of old JD quotes, and current pros being asked how BW pros would do if they switched? Not a lot to go on, but somehow i'm meant to hold onto this as a light at the end of the tunnel of mediocrity? (well, not even mediocrity, i'm told Nestea and FruitDealer are BAD not mediocre.)
Other than to completely shit on an entire community i just don't get the point.
Glad some people enjoyed it though.
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On May 12 2011 22:19 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:16 Firkraag8 wrote:On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2. Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps.. I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything. You obviously have no idea how crazy good a S-class player is. Boxer is good but Flash is on a whole other world. It doesn't have to be SC2. If Flash or Jaedong plays any RTS, they will dominate.
On May 12 2011 22:20 Callous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:16 Firkraag8 wrote:On May 12 2011 22:11 Callous wrote:On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote:
This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2. Exactly the reason why this is all pure speculation, until a S-class BW pro switches, and manages to "totally dominate" the SC2 scene this kind of discussion is just utterly pointless and begging for a flamewar between the two camps.. I say, prove it, before then don't assume anything. It's not based on assumption though, it's clear that from previous GSL results that even the bad/mediocre BW pros are considering the best players of SC2 right now.
Being better than someone else in one game, does not equal being better than someone in another game. All I keep hearing is assumptions and speculation based on prior BW results, not actual proof.
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I really dislike Hot Bid for leaving Bisu aka GOAT out from his text.
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awesome article intrigue 
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this is why i'm going to wait another 2 years before starting to watch any sc2 games
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Thank you for the amazing article! This was a wonderful read and I feel refreshed and inspired after reading it ^_^
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Why do people keep saying there's no evidence to suggest BW players won't be good at SC2? ALL of the evidence suggests such. In fact, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Maybe people are mistaking the word evidence for proof of causation. Obviously we can't prove causation, but it's definitely fair to make analyses based on observed correlations.
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On May 12 2011 22:23 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote:intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest: "If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans." So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday? I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough* , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.). -_- You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world. No, he's saying that Tasteless and Artosis say that the ex-BW pros that are winning now in SC2 were "sick good" at BW, but actually those pros weren't very good at all.
Not being able to compete with the absolute best in the world is not the same as "not very good at all".
Is every soccer player who hasn't scored 10 goals in the Wold Cup "not very good at all"?
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I think its quite unfair to compare similar sports/games as an analogy because the games are different.
However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in cases that has no definite answer, nothing a person says will change their opinion. I believe people just realise it themselves when the time comes eventually.
Started watching KR-BW a long time ago but I think SC2 is more interesting to watch because the game has 1) nicer graphics, 2) english commentary (haha XD), 3) new game and tactics are still being figured out, 4) i'm a huge BoxeR, nada, july, oov fanboi rofl..
I don't really see why difficulty of 2 sports need to be compared to enjoy them.
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On May 12 2011 22:22 gwixter wrote:so ... who are these fine gentlemen mentioned in OP (some Flash, Jeadong, Bisu ...) because I can't find them in SC2 ladder anywhere  and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
I'm an SC2 fan, and even I find this post sad.
There's a Starcraft 1, and it has a thriving pro scene in Korea. FLash/Jaedong/Bisu are the big three in it.
Brood War is more of a young man's game (or at least that's the conception in Korea), so as time passes players that are A-class/S-class now will find more and more incentive to switch.
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The fascinating thing about SCII is that nothing has truly been figured out at the level that Brood War has. In fact, I think it will remain this way for at least another 4 years (or until balance patches stop coming out). With that in mind, I don't think we'll see matches on the technical level of BW for quite some time, regardless of the skill of the players involved.
I'd have to agree with the stance of the article in general. However, to create a featured article to basically state the BW scene is superior in every aspect to SC2 comes off as nothing more than a well-informed, old-school circle-jerk.
Is the opinion of this article accurate? Probably -- Then again, I'm not a pro gamer, and neither is intrigue.
Is the opinion of this article lacking any constructive purpose? Anybody can see that.
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EPT
