Being better than someone else in one game, does not equal being better than someone in another game. All I keep hearing is assumptions and speculation based on prior BW results, not actual proof.
No, those weren't based on BW results. Those were based on traits observed of the players which can be applied to other RTS. Their mechanics, work ethics, tactics, improvisation, and pure intimidation factors. I understand why you are skeptical because you haven't seen them. These guys are simply not human.
You even assume that I have no experience with the televised Broodwar scene, you're wrong, I have been watching for many years and when I started the top pros were Nada and Savior. I've even played the game myself since release up until WC3 released. I still stand by the opinion that current top S-class BW players does not immediately guarantee success in SC2, and until they do there's no point in assuming anything.
This article does nothing but incite pointless speculation.
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote: Was ThorZaIN vs oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?
My thoughts exactly.
Actually, I forgot about the casters! Without them, SC2 wouldn't be as much fun.
Interesting read, I have to agree with most points on the fact that a proper "pro" broodwar player would dominate starcraft 2 after a few months. I think that the domination would not be as huge as people believe though (mainly because of the volatilty from the expansion packs as huge changes are probably introduced).
Also if i am to understand the article should mvp be destroying MC?. But it really is the other way round right now.
I know nothing about broodwar. Haven't got a clue really. I really liked this article, and especially the part were you mentioned that it is not just the talent of top tier broodwar players that makes them so much better than SC2 pros, but their work ethic. On top of that, you gave a very realistic breakdown of the money involved in progaming, and why most good broodwar players haven't made the switch yet. If anything else, this makes me more excited for the future of SC2 . To think that this game will eventually have players like flash or jaedong (which you old-school teamliquiders seem to adore to no end) make every GSL game played before 2013 give you braincancer, makes me a very happy camper. Thank you for your opinion. It made for an interesting read.
very good article. it was time someone reflects the current situation in starcraft. guess most young users here dont get the article. there must be more work done. to be a professional means workin hard for it, so we can see a game with minor mistakes, flawless, pure magic..i am waiting for this...
On May 12 2011 22:09 Klaent wrote: This whole thing felt pretty pointless to me. I get the point your trying to make, but i still feel its pointless. "If JD switched to SC2 he would dominate", there is no point in saying that at all, we cant prove it. This whole writeup just felt like a way to start arguments, and i dont see the point of it. Comparing Thorzain and MC's talent to highschool fotball is insulting.
And your point just falls flat when you have no proof at all to back up your arguments, your saying BW pros would dominate SC2 but so far nobody has. Its just pointless speculation to start arguments...
Are you incapable of reading the first post? There have been no S-class BW pros that have switched fully to SC2.
You realize he's not arguing against that AT ALL right? Kind of reflects extra poorly on you after that snide remark bringing his capability of reading into question... He's saying there's no point in making claims you can't back up and that it's just fuel for pointless arguments (in this case, that an S-class BW player would dominate SC2 if they switched over). Did you click on the wrong quote button or something?
Read his post again, he said that there was no argument since BW pros haven't dominated SC2, when that is actually wrong, as the article goes into great detail saying how (bad) BW pros are the ones currently seen as the top SC2 players.
I'm almost certain he's saying, as are a great deal of other people commenting, that the argument given was really weak and there are tons of variables being completely overlooked. That being good at BW as it is now does not necessarily guarantee being just as good in SC2 where it currently stands. That we won't know just how well those 300 BW pros will fare in SC2 until they start actually transferring over. Probably well of course, but nobody is claiming otherwise to that. The point is just that it's not necessarily a given that the top BW guys would absolutely flatten SC2 and that their skill and standings would carry over 100% between the games. So we have to just watch and see what happens, rather than everyone arguing about it as if they know the future.
On May 12 2011 22:22 gwixter wrote: so ... who are these fine gentlemen mentioned in OP (some Flash, Jeadong, Bisu ...) because I can't find them in SC2 ladder anywhere and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
I'm an SC2 fan, and even I find this post sad.
There's a Starcraft 1, and it has a thriving pro scene in Korea. FLash/Jaedong/Bisu are the big three in it.
Brood War is more of a young man's game (or at least that's the conception in Korea), so as time passes players that are A-class/S-class now will find more and more incentive to switch.
please don't be sad, my post was a little bit exaggerated
of course I know who they are ... just I don't understand how hypothetical skill of these players in game they don't play makes whole scene in that game being a farce .... because afaik current top SC2 players are really best SC2 players atm
At the moment. But they're objectively making major mistakes. That famous MC vs Thorzain game had zealots dancing behind stalkers. There's a lot of room for improvement
Hot Bid wrote The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
This is actually an incredibly creepy statement if you think about it too long.
So what is the point? SC2 fans should cry that SC2 progamers suck and rather watch SC:BW or what are you trying to imply? Most people reading these forums are from Europe and US and there, unlike in Korea, SC:BW is a smelly cold dead corpse. SC2 united all of the different RTS scenes in US and EU and as such has huge potential to produce great competition and unveil real talent. Yeah, sure bonjwa's won't start raining from the sky in the first year of the game, and it will be long before we see anyone in SC2 who plays as beautifully as Jaedong or Flash, but everyone is aware if this and as such it doesn't qualify as an elephant in the room :p.
I believe the factor "time" everyone's been more or less talking about is supposed to solve that particular problem. More or less. Nice article regardless.
BW? Imagine if the top Warcraft3 players switched over. They would DOMINATE every-one with 100% win rates, no doubt. Should have wrote an article on that.
On May 12 2011 22:38 Megatronn wrote: Is the purpose of this well written, well thought out article to bash sc2?
I think the difference between both games is.. too practice BW is simple, you already know the best BO's against every strategy, there is almost no one player that can make up an original BO that works consistantly.
Sc2 on the other hand is still being figured out, people don't practice their mechanics as much as BW pros do because they're still figuring out the best way to beat certain strategies.
TL;DR BW comes with a set of rules that you must follow. In sc2 you're making up the rules as you learn for now.
Great article btw, except for the whole Flash/Jaedong/Bisu > everything everywhere anywhere
P.S I want to see a good player from BW switch because I think that would force every player to step up their game.
It's not to bash SC2, most of what the article is saying is that their is a HUGE talent pool poised at any minute to stream over and essentially set up shop in SC2. If this happens, awesome, if not, oh well.
On May 12 2011 22:22 gwixter wrote: so ... who are these fine gentlemen mentioned in OP (some Flash, Jeadong, Bisu ...) because I can't find them in SC2 ladder anywhere and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
I'm an SC2 fan, and even I find this post sad.
There's a Starcraft 1, and it has a thriving pro scene in Korea. FLash/Jaedong/Bisu are the big three in it.
Brood War is more of a young man's game (or at least that's the conception in Korea), so as time passes players that are A-class/S-class now will find more and more incentive to switch.
please don't be sad, my post was a little bit exaggerated
of course I know who they are ... just I don't understand how hypothetical skill of these players in game they don't play makes whole scene in that game being a farce .... because afaik current top SC2 players are really best SC2 players atm
At the moment. But they're objectively making major mistakes. That famous MC vs Thorzain game had zealots dancing behind stalkers. There's a lot of room for improvement
and this should be the reason that I cannot enjoy watching SC2 without feeling inferior?
Frankly, this article seems to me like a desperate cry for attention from the Brood War scene. Let the Jaedongs and Flashes come, I say. Let them take their best goddamn shot at the SC2 scene. I wouldn't be surprised to see them be the ones who crash at the Code A gates with frustration this time around.
BW legends and their "Starsense" are going to flounder when the units, the builds and the timings they've practiced with for so many years become obsolete. SC2 is intensive on a different skillset than BW, so really, I'm not at all surprised to see a low correlation between success in the SC2 scene vs. success in the BW scene.
Let the elephant continue to graze in the BW pastures I say, and continue living out its gentle decline.
Very well written article but a lot of it was a bit circular. Most of the situations or problems brought up were answered within the same paragraph.
No one is denying that BW players are better than every other type of RTS gamer. There is no comparable pro gaming scene anywhere else. If they weren't better it would mean that progaming has no merits whatsoever.
The fact that the game SC2, and more importantly the scene and its surrounding culture, is still so new accounts for all of the problems.
SC2 pros are more relaxed? Well if b-team bw pros receive next to nothing, lets compare that to top tier sc2 pros who also receive next to nothing, unless they win. Good salaries aren't just awarded to those who play well, it requires the scene to have a certain level of public interest.
Lets not forget that the best sc2 pros are in korea because of the built in culture of pro gaming. Even if sc2 teams don't practice to the extent of BW teams, they are modeled the same way. The differences can be explained by the fact that in Korea BW still dominates the public's attention.
The issue I have with this article isn't that its wrong, its that the tone implies that SC2 is lacking something key that BW has. From what I read in this article and what I've seen since the beta of WoL, the game is progressing naturally. If BW pros don't switch over, then the scene will create pros of equal quality as long as the fans are interested and the scene keeps growing.
I could even argue that given enough time, with the current trend of SC2 growing exponentially all over the world and broodwar declining everywhere but Korea, that eventually sc2 players will far outshine BW players in caliber of skill. Why? Because there will be more money on the line, more fame, more respect. These things drive players to push themselves beyond their limits.
isn't this the type of sc1 vs sc2 argument that is usually banned on this forum or is it because its a staff member so its ok?? basically its saying "lol sc2 players suck, just wait until bw pro come and clean house".
as for the amount of practice, i think its obvious that the mechanics in bw are a lot harder so it requires more practice.
edit: also u are comparing a 10 year old game vs a 1 year old game
Each point is first declared, then argued succinctly.
The amount of passion and variation of opinions prove that this is a good topic to argue upon. Great article.
As for the argument itself, I believe in the power of the Brood War players. Every point you presented, I have analyzed and I agree upon them.
This game is still young, and I believe we already have a ton of talent in the form of IMMvp and Nestea. However, you have indeed addressed the elephant in the room. These players were not spectacular before.
If Flash or Jaedong decide to make the switch now, the amount of entertainment created by watching them would be staggering. Their unit control, macro and decision making would all be near perfect. For who can both have 300+ APM, and be a brilliant strategist at the same time?
Starcraft 2 has more breathing room for not mechanical skills, and once we give that room to the current high level Brood War players, their true strategical genius will blossom further.
And as you said, work ethic is probably the most important part for becoming successful in any field of profession. And I believe that as time goes on, the current SC2 players will step it up.
Just because the best of the best BW players aren't playing SC2 doesn't mean that the competition is a joke. It's a great game to play, but it is also an amazing spectator sport, hence the wads of cash being thrown weekly at the SC2 tournaments, all eight hundred million of them (hyperbole!!) As a spectator sport, I would rather watch some equally matched players face off than see the any pro team play against gradeschoolers in any game, ever. The competition is amazing to watch, and once Blizzard is finally satisfied with the balance patches, it will only get better and better, and yes, even better. There are tons of amazing American football players, but they can stay there, I don't need to see them playing baseball, or soccer, or rugby. Different games and just because the best football players aren't playing them doesn't take away the vallidity of the comptition.
On May 12 2011 22:57 Bijan wrote: The issue I have with this article isn't that its wrong, its that the tone implies that SC2 is lacking something key that BW has. From what I read in this article and what I've seen since the beta of WoL, the game is progressing naturally. If BW pros don't switch over, then the scene will create pros of equal quality as long as the fans are interested and the scene keeps growing.
I could even argue that given enough time, with the current trend of SC2 growing exponentially all over the world and broodwar declining everywhere but Korea, that eventually sc2 players will far outshine BW players in caliber of skill. Why? Because there will be more money on the line, more fame, more respect. These things drive players to push themselves beyond their limits.
My point exactly, talent is not unique or limited to only one game/sport. There will come new players of equal or better talents and work ethic that starts their career in SC2 instead of Broodwar. It's just a matter of time.
It's true a lot of people who couldn't make it or tried and just didn't make it in BW have gone to SC2. But there is quite a difference between someone having an average win rate and an average career. Even in BW most players don't make it to the big stages. 30+ games over a few years at say 30-40% is respectable in the sense that you know that guy punched his timecard and gave it a shot. This we can say of Cool, Zergbong, Sangho, Tester, et al. The club of consistent TV players who have both high volume of games played and a world class win ratio is quite small, and it's no surprise they keep getting fed more games.
Like if you really follow baseball, you might know a nuance about every player on your favorite team. So you cheer for the ones that don't shine that bright, and in that way you don't discount their efforts. There isn't enough room for everyone to be a winner. There are things that don't show up in a player's win ratio and game tally. Practicing with the team's star for a few days showing him how to do well in his OSL run. Preparing hard for that set that you didn't get to play because your team lost or won before your set. Preparing a special ace sniping strategy that nobody got to see because the match ended before that. Just how close you were that time in the prelim finals and lost 1-2. All those replays of you going 50/50 with your team's ace. Being crushed when you let your team down, going at it with a new flame, your wrist sometimes hurting at your new job. Winning that game when your team was down, but not getting an interview because your team lost the next set.
I won't forget Sunny or fOru or Sheis. They did alright.
EPT
and why exactly is author calling scene in game I enjoy being a farce???
