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I like this article. However it just makes me want to see the Sc1 code S pros play in the GSL.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 71
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nathangonmad
United Kingdom317 Posts
I like this article. However it just makes me want to see the Sc1 code S pros play in the GSL. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
bw is extremely hard, it's not a game where you can succeed in a short period of time (ofc there is some exceptions like Flash, he is a real genius), it takes a lot of time to become good, and you can't exactly know the peak of players like MC or MVP in bw if they didn't spent enough time to practise and reach their full potential. And i don't think an article was needed to say the better players are in bw and didn't switch yet. It was obvious for the majority, it has been discussed to death in the forum section for months... | ||
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
On May 12 2011 22:31 Enervate wrote: Why do people keep saying there's no evidence to suggest BW players won't be good at SC2? ALL of the evidence suggests such. In fact, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Maybe people are mistaking the word evidence for proof of causation. Obviously we can't prove causation, but it's definitely fair to make analyses based on observed correlations. Maybe you are mistaken evidence for assumption? I would say its fair to assume that one who devotes as much time into a RTS game and has as much skill and experience with the RTS genre as someone like Flash would be very good and maybe even the best at a somewhat similar RTS game. But before he makes the jump there is no evidence to back it up. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
We've seen players who were only C/B players in Broodwar just tear it up in sc2, beating players that were far better than them in broodwar. Yea, if you're good at SC1 you're gonna be good at SC2, but some new players might just be better than you who werent better than you in SC1. This happens ALL the time, i could give loads of examples from sport etc. (well mostly racing, because that's where it's easily applicable). A race car driver might be the best in 1 series, but when he switches to another it's a whole other world, even though he's still basically doing the same thing. Saying that this argument doesnt apply to some people is silly, because it does. I get nostalgia. I didnt play a lot of broodwar, but i understand how people feel about it. But nostalgia is not rational, it's just emotion. | ||
fnaticNoname
India858 Posts
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Corrupted
United States1255 Posts
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote: I gotta agree with this entirely. MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else. You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW. And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past. | ||
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Knuppe
90 Posts
MBS and automine and unlimited unit selection are just a few things that needs to be removed for the game to even come close to BW. | ||
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snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:11 Umbrella wrote: Whether or not this article is obviously right or wrong, it could have easily been rewritten without the condescending tone. It's just inciting flames even though people are claiming that it wasn't originally meant to. As a fan of both scenes, I'm sad to see that this is in Teamliquid's front page. I don't see the constant need to prove BW's superiority over and over again. qft also, i have no problem saying bw is better. thats that really make u so happy? question your life then. again, yes bw is better *giggle*, at least right now. but sc2 is not even half way made game yet, we'll talk in couple of years after not one but two expansions come out. sc vanilla wasnt bw either, wait for it, it'll be legendary heh hoh heh :p  | ||
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Terr
237 Posts
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omegaslast
223 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote: You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written. Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2 | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:20 Knuppe wrote: The skillcap of SC2 is so low compared to BW it would be an insult to Flash or Jaedong to ask them play the game. MBS and automine and unlimited unit selection are just 2 things that needs to be removed for the game to even come close to BW. First you disrespect more or less everyone who enjoy SC2. Then you list three things yet can't even count them properly. The things you listed are things that any new game should have, it's a hindrance in BW not a feature. | ||
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote: I feel like the "it's a different game" argument fits perfectly, i dont see why it doesnt. We've seen players who were only C/B players in Broodwar just tear it up in sc2, beating players that were far better than them in broodwar. Yea, if you're good at SC1 you're gonna be good at SC2, but some new players might just be better than you who werent better than you in SC1. This happens ALL the time, i could give loads of examples from sport etc. (well mostly racing, because that's where it's easily applicable). A race car driver might be the best in 1 series, but when he switches to another it's a whole other world, even though he's still basically doing the same thing. Saying that this argument doesnt apply to some people is silly, because it does. I get nostalgia. I didnt play a lot of broodwar, but i understand how people feel about it. But nostalgia is not rational, it's just emotion. Idd, we have also seen the best WC3 perform poorly and mediocre WC3 players perform at the very top. Maybe some players, ex-bw or ex-wc3 etc., just decided to train and invest more for SC2 etc. And with 2 more expansions coming out for SC2 the game is far from done or perfect yet, but where will all the new RTS talent go? not BW, more likely they will go play SC2. | ||
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GreyMasta
Canada197 Posts
2- Yet I question the use of the word "farce". I am french and in my language "farce" simply means a "staged joke". SC2 scene is a joke? Really? Heck, you're a TL guy and here you're even shooting in your own feet: Why is TL is working so hard on making TSL3 such a big event if the "scene" it is supposed to hype and to bring to light is just a joke? Are you implying am I going to watch a clown fight here on this site next Sunday? Instead of joke you could have use "immature", "unfulfilled" instead, "in the making" or something else, something respectful of people investing their life into making that game to grow right now. Including yourself. | ||
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ParadigmSchism
United States18 Posts
On May 12 2011 22:44 bonifaceviii wrote: The Beatles are better than Tool and NIN what is wrong with you We all know that though. Everyone knows it. But are you going to tell me Tool isn't a good band because the Beatles are better? Can I not say I enjoy their music without the obligatory "Beatles are the best band ever". That doesn't 100% correlate to Starcraft. However, we all know that BW took more APM. We all know, beyond a shadow of a doubt (and actually, DUH!) that BW progamers lead the way for what we are enjoying today. We all know that BW is balanced...perfect. But how many years did it take to get there? SC2 hasn't even been out a year. Just look at the Spanishiwa thing. Blew peoples minds because no one had thought of it before. The game will evolve and change. And I'm sorry to say, the game will one day be better than BW. Just not yet. | ||
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eazo
United States530 Posts
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Wallaaa
Canada8 Posts
Honestly I disagree with a lot of the stuff, I think nada proves as a good example of what would happen when sc1 pros switch over. Jaedong and Flash are going to do just as well as any sc2 pro currently because SC2 suffers from somewhat of a skill-cap, much like if a professional number counter were to compete in a event where you count to 10, sure he can count to 6409358475943 but it isn't needed for the event. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
Seriously? How about you compare the Starcraft pro scene in 1999? or 2000? Does anyone even know of professional Starcraft players from those years? I don't. Flash and Jaedong have the benefit of playing a game that has a decade of other players experience behind it. They rode on the knowledge of others. Starcraft 2 doesn't have that yet. People are still figuring things out. Which actually makes SC2 more interesting to me. Yes, the talent in SC:BW is more apparent, micro and army control were more demanding. SC2 is a bit more about build-orders. But the talent I love seeing is people innovating the game. NesTea quick-teching to a Lair in order to drop creep and spines next to AnyPro's FE got a lot of applause, not because it was mechanically brilliant with high APM, but because it was unexpected and smart. They're not only different games, you're comparing a game that is 13 years old to one that is relatively new. Brood War was an expansion, and Starcraft 2 is due for two of those. So why even make the comparison? BW is still exciting, but it's peaked. Starcraft 2 has more road untraveled, and the beginning is rough. Why is that even surprising? I don't see the elephant, just an elitist attitude towards what was a pinnacle of PC gaming. It's understandable, but time to move on. | ||
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gwixter
Slovakia336 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:20 Knuppe wrote: The skillcap of SC2 is so low compared to BW it would be an insult to Flash or Jaedong to ask them play the game. MBS and automine and unlimited unit selection are just a few things that needs to be removed for the game to even come close to BW. and what about removing control groups from BW? wouldn't it raise skillcap in BW? wouldn't it be even better game for even more superior superhumans? | ||
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omegaslast
223 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:22 karpo wrote: First you disrespect more or less everyone who enjoy SC2. Then you list three things yet can't even count them properly. The things you listed are things that any new game should have, it's a hindrance in BW not a feature. but dont you see? the best chess player isnt the best unless he can juggle 3 bowling pins while moving his pieces. real time strategy is better if theres more needless complications for the player that dont have anything to do with strategy and just weed those out that cant keep up with "busy work" | ||
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