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All the starcraft 1 players will read this while nodding their heads and humming agreements that they were right all along, that starcraft 2 was, is and forever will be trash until it gets more of the starcraft 1 influence.
Starcraft 2 players will read this and be offended by the starcraft 1 elitist saying their game is trash, watching trashy players play trashy games and in effect make the viewers trash too.
When I first clicked on the link I thought I would get to read a well thought out interesting article but what a disappointing flame bait. Maybe the author intended it to sound less horribly biased and more neutral but if that's the case, he failed miserably.
There is a reason why there's a SC2 section and a SC1 section of the forum.
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On May 12 2011 23:22 omegaslast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2
Why play a game where you have to win 300k, when you can make 200k on salary plus winnings from tournaments your going to dominate anyway? I really don't understand this argument.
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Problem with the article, it says something so simple: people who practice a lot will play well, and that we dont have such players yet. The first part is ofc true, the second can be argued with, Artosis made some videos about the practice houses, they looked pretty concentrated on the game, though im not there to see exactly how many hours they play.
The problem with it that its more than 1 line. It tries to prove a triviality (the first part) for a long time, and tried to prove something with BW results that cannot be proved by statistics of BW results. This is a problem in itself, if you want to make yourself look at least competent, try to get some relevant facts.
And what is even more problem, the whole stuff is flavored with anti-SC2 biased shit-talking. Which is ok in a blog post, not ok in an SC2 based website's featured news section.
So much butthurt caused, i would say TL is trolling us, but thats not the nature of the site, so i have to think for worse options :S
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A good and interesting read... I wasn't to involved in Brood war but I'm still awestruck by it as a whole. I'm sure that most of your points are accurate, and I'm looking forward to seeing new talent from BW come out, It's so great to watch how the way Pros play SC2 has evolved and It has a long way to go. Looking forward to the point when I can feel that the balance is solid enough too ^^.
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Great read.... Wish we had "Flash's and Jeadong's" in sc2, reading about how the pro's arent as motivated as broodwar pros, makes me less motivated to watch.
Guess ill just stick to watching my favorite players are doing and just be excited, like watching friday night college football.
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There is no denying that the outliers of BW given a good team to support them and a little time would likely be doing great, and that they are held back by common sense where they have a very good paid salary now and they would have no such assurance for quite sometime in SC2.
However, IMHO, you can't stress enough that you are trying to establish direct corrolations between the two games and then coming to a conclusion that the latter competition is currently weak.
If there was such a corrolation, older progamers wouldn't be successful, Foreigners wouldn't be winning or even in a league where one can say that a match was determined on Latency.
It's intriguing to look at the finer details, and I'm certain that players like MVP are being put up on the spot by his ex-teammates who may or may not regret not having tried for SC2, however competition in a game is established by it's players not by people of similar skill.
This is just my opinion but this feels just like a propaganda piece that someone working on a KeSPA broadcast would throw to try and invalidate the accomplishments of the SC2 players. While I do sometimes wonder what a player like Flash would do better or different were he playing SC2, I don't feel like that the Sc2 leagues are equivalent to the amateur hour.
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That was a damn well written article yet I'm not convinced that Flash/Jaedon/Bisu would stomp everybody with a 80% win rate.
One thing that distinguish the top BW pros from the rest is their mechanics, which play a very important role in that game and a much less important one in SC2.
In BW even if you have the best counter BO to his BO, you just cannot beat Flash unless you're another korean A-teamer.
In SC2 most of the grandmaster players of all realms could take a few game from MVP here and there. The skill gap tend to be smaller because of the nature of the game and this is not just my opinion : this aspect of SC2 has been described by pros themselves (Ret for ex.)
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OP, umad?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 12 2011 23:27 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:22 omegaslast wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2 Why play a game where you have to win 300k, when you can make 200k on salary plus winnings from tournaments your going to dominate anyway? I really don't understand thins argument.
hundreds of BW players are not getting a 200k salary plus winnings. youre insane to think that. Im going to go out on a limb and say you didnt even fully read my post.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51387 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:28 Shaithis wrote:
OP, umad?
wow,really?
is that really all you can say?
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On May 12 2011 23:20 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote:
I gotta agree with this entirely.
MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else.
You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW.
And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past.
So you are basically saying that a higher skill ceiling is a thing of the past? Really?
True, MBS and automine might have gotten the game off the ground, but they are also, in a way, preventing the scene from ever reaching high flight.
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On May 12 2011 22:23 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote:intrigue interesting article, but there is one line that stood out above the rest: "If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans." So now your even calling Tasteless and Artosis ex-Brood War pros because they keep driving that lie home on the air practically everyday? I'm frigging baffled. There's a big difference between Amateur players (which pretty much every foreigner WAS, with the exception of Giyom, Elky, Leggionaire, Assem, Rekrul *cough*  , IdrA (even though he never got out of the b-team and was given his license because he begged SDM), etc.). -_- You said it yourself, the Champions we have in SC2 were a joke in BW. MVP is the only one who had decent results and as for Tasteless and Artosis. Well, they keep living in their fantasy world. No, he's saying that Tasteless and Artosis say that the ex-BW pros that are winning now in SC2 were "sick good" at BW, but actually those pros weren't very good at all.
I do remember Artosis on SotG talking about MvP when he switched to sc2 as a terrible BW pro. "When he was playing I would stop watching" or words to that effect.
But it is obvious that the even the best sc2 pros at the moment aren't playing anywhere near perfectly. There are so many noticeably micro and macro slips in every top level game which you wouldn't expect from top pro's in a game that is supposedly too easy.
I still don't know what room this elephant is in. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are better players out there, playing a different game.
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On May 12 2011 23:24 Wallaaa wrote:
He compared thorzain vs MC to a high school football game hehe.
Honestly I disagree with a lot of the stuff, I think nada proves as a good example of what would happen when sc1 pros switch over. Jaedong and Flash are going to do just as well as any sc2 pro currently because SC2 suffers from somewhat of a skill-cap, much like if a professional number counter were to compete in a event where you count to 10, sure he can count to 6409358475943 but it isn't needed for the event.
Which pro right now as reach the skill cap of SC2? Perfect micro, macro, multiple prong attacks that don't have idle units doing nothing, constant production of buildings, well perceived decisions based on sparse information, etc?
SC2 may have a lower skill cap. I don't believe I have seen a single pro reach it yet. And to reach it, it takes practice and dedication, and a hell lot of games. BW pros are set up for this sort of regimen.
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On May 12 2011 23:31 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:20 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote:
I gotta agree with this entirely.
MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else.
You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW.
And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past. So you are basically saying that a higher skill ceiling is a thing of the past? Really? True, MBS and automine might have gotten the game off the ground, but they are also, in a way, preventing the scene from ever reaching high flight.
Isn't that a very narrowminded approach to game design? "Lets put in obstacles for the player instead of actually interesting mechanics". I'm hoping the expansions add more stuff that great players can use to get ahead. I don't want old, broken mechanics back just to add difficulty.
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On May 12 2011 23:30 omegaslast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:27 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:22 omegaslast wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Excellent point. Apparently out of the hundred of BW pros that would "sweep" the sc2 scene, not a single one has heard of the huge prize pools of NASL and GSL. Are they too stupid to capitalize on it? or perhaps it isnt as clear cut as the OP. within a month and a half they could make it through code A, and be in code S making boatloads of money. They could also be participating in NASL at the same time. They would be making as much as flash at that point (about $300k-$400k per year at this rate). Flash, jaedong, bisu, im not talking about them. Im talking about the hundreds of BW pros mentioned in the OP that could apparently do this... they certainly arent making a lot of money in BW, yet they are almost "guaranteed" to if they just moved to SC2 Why play a game where you have to win 300k, when you can make 200k on salary plus winnings from tournaments your going to dominate anyway? I really don't understand thins argument. hundreds of BW players are not getting a 200k salary plus winnings. youre insane to think that. Im going to go out on a limb and say you didnt even fully read my post.
Just keep in mind these guys have a definite income when it comes to broodwar. A lot higher than any team would offer in SC2. Also, the OP's point has yet to be proven, so they don't even know if they'd dominate. BW is just a very sound spot for many Korean progamers to be in right now.
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This is really an awesome and eyeopening post. I consider myself decent in rankings at this game (top400 EU and US) but At the same time I also consider myself extremely bad cus Im imperfect at my play and not even the top100of the world is close to playing perfect. I doubt they will play perfect after a year. I see flaws in everyones play, small and big. Imagen the code S pro's from BW playing this game 24/7 and bring the meta game to perfection, it would be so awesome to see a player that would be a real dominent force and practically be unbeatable like JD and flash were in SC1.
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Approaching a controversial topic in an inflammatory manner sometimes gets you temporarily banned, and other times lands you on an editorial. Yes, Brood War is great, the best BW players are practically gods, yadda yadda, we know already. Why does the OP feel like he has to smear crap all over the current SC2 scene for allegedly being worse than Flash (in a different game), I don't really understand. It's not like anybody else recently drew parallels between SC2 and, say, Red Alert or Total Annihilation.
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Very nice write up, and I definately agree that some players are just so good that the game is irrelevant.
But regarding the practice,. Right now, when SC2 is still new and there are expansions to come it's not that rewarding to practice that hard. There is a descent chance that you will face a strategy that's never been done/shown before. In broodwar there as been no change in the game for like 7 years(?). When SC2 has been played in its final form for 5+ years, we can start this discussion.
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Last year at MLG DC, I asked (Z)IdrA if he felt a sense of urgency to win a GSL before the top tier Brood War players switched. I was not sober enough to remember what he said.
Cool story bro.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 12 2011 23:33 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:31 Loanshark wrote:On May 12 2011 23:20 EnderCraft wrote:On May 12 2011 23:04 Loanshark wrote:
I gotta agree with this entirely.
MBS and automine and the whole nature of SC2 put this glass ceiling on the skill level of the game. It's like taking baseball and basically making the ball and bat plastic so it's impossible to make the ball go anywhere. Anyone can play. You can be godly, but it won't show. You'll be the same as anyone else.
You can talk on and on about how the game is still being figured out, but if MBS and automine are here to stay, I really can't see how it will develop into something resembling the skill of BW.
And I'm going to go one step further and say that some of the people defending SC2 just don't want to admit that the game they are playing and the players they cheer for are actually shit compared to Brood War mid-levels. Honestly for a modern game, not having MBS/auto mine would have hindered SC2's initial popularity. The game would have gotten horrible reviews, and probably would have been badly received by the overall gaming population. Thus, SC2 wouldn't be getting the attention it is today, and ESports (sc2 as well. While not having MBS and auto-mine would add a more robust need for mechanics; this day in age it would only serve as an unnecessary monkey on your back. The need to manually move your workers and utilize buildings (separately) is simply a thing of the past. So you are basically saying that a higher skill ceiling is a thing of the past? Really? True, MBS and automine might have gotten the game off the ground, but they are also, in a way, preventing the scene from ever reaching high flight. Isn't that a very narrowminded approach to game design? "Lets put in obstacles for the player instead of actually interesting mechanics". I'm hoping the expansions add more stuff that great players can use to get ahead. I don't want old, broken mechanics back just to add difficulty.
It is. If by "high flight" you mean having to needlessly learn something that in no way contributes to the strategic aspect of a strategy game. You are right, mechanically SC1 will always be a harder game. SC2 just eliminates that variable allowing for players to focus on the strategy aspect without having to worry about unnecessary game mechanics.
I understand where your coming from, it just will never work in a modern game society.
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EPT
